Symptoms of Kissing Spines.......?

Perfect_Pirouette

Perfect_Pirouette

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I know I am probably being/getting stupidly paranoid but I can't help it.

Rode orange one last night for first time since Physio/Osteo on Mon. Now to be fair it was only the first time, however he was still REALLY unhappy to have saddle on/girth tightened.

It COULD just be remembered pain from before physio came as she did find a fair bit of soreness etc. However, I am starting to look ahead and think what if it's not? She echoed what I had been thinking re ulcers so if girthiness continues I will investigate the ulcer possibility.

Someone said something to me last night that worried me about KS. They said they had a horse with it and described exactly how orange one is. They said it was only after horse got fitter and they started asking more of him (funny, exactly the same) and the first symptom was bad reaction to being tacked up/girth.

So now I am panicking and paranoid about KS. Argh. I just want to go down today and tack him up and him be normal again :(

Ridden wise last night he was A LOT better. Much more loose, swingy, relaxed and even in the contact so something must have been done right Mon. It's just this aversion to the girth now that needs to right itself.

So....for anyone that's had a horse with KS, what were the first signs? Don't worry I'm not going to self-diagnose my poor horse lol. I just want to explore every avenue of what it could be.
 
First symptoms were objecting to being tacked up, final time he was tacked up his legs buckled in stable. Also with hindsight (so bloody perfect is hindsight) over time he had become very sensitive to grooming, generally more bad tempered (not like him) didnt like to turn sharply to close gate when being brought in and his aversion to jumping combinations (because he couldnt physically shorten up - hindsight again). He had been passed to me for dressage because of jumping issues and he was for a while marvelous at it but then he started objecting to certain movements on flat. Everyone else said he was just being Nappy - glad I stuck to my opinion that whilst he was quirky, he hadnt been a nasty horse and refered to Vets for full work up. He was exceptionally bad, beyond two sites of kissing spine, his back was so altered that ligaments were being squashed and furthermore had arthritic changes in pelvis that would have been expected in a 20+ year old. He was 7. Even though I had Insurance money to pay for treatment the Vets could do nothing, bless him. However, that is my story and unlikely that yours will be anywhere as severe but stay with your gut instinct and get it checked out. Good luck, hoping for a happy ending.
 
My horse was dianosed a week ago, currently waiting for a bone scan and surgery. His KS isnt too bad, has 2 fusions and 1 thats worn.
He had been seen by a physio for about 9months before I got vet. He is very sharp to ride and also but things down to him being naughty/awkward.
His trot canter transitions are poor, (walk canter is fine), he struggles with leg yielding, he is alot weaker on the right rein compared to the left. I put all of this down to a schooling issue, and with physio's advised worked him in a pessoa, 2/3times a week and he seemed to improve, however he seemed to stop developing and improving so needed to look into things further.
More recently hes been struggeling with his jumping, something that hasnt been an issue before, he seemed to be backing off bigger fences 1m+ and on landing seemed to be awkward as if he was in pain. Took him to the clinic and first xrayed his hocks but everything there was fine, we had a 2week trial of bute and he seemed much better, looser, happier jumping, and leg yeilding showed massive improvements.
We then went back to clinic last Friday, they lunged him again, and this time saw him worked under saddle without being on bute, vet was very alarmed as hes such a gentle chap to handle but to ride he is the devil, he showed the vet his party tricks, rearing, spinning etc. Decided to xray his back and the KS showed up.
I would get his scoped for ulcers before you go down xrays etc as its expensive. I had mine scoped about 6months before all of this going on and he was fine, perfectly healthy!
 
Lots and lots of horses have KS (really, I read a paper from Rossdales where 70 something% of the control group had them when x-rayed, I think I found another one which suggested 50ish% of the control group so that wasn't a totally isolated paper either).

I wouldn't panic until you have ruled out the more obvious candidates first. I'm pretty sure my horse will have them. Short coupled TB means that she almost certainly does (TBs appear to be more susceptible) but it isn't affecting her so I'm not going to go looking for something that isn't a problem.

How much have you played around with girthing solutions? Some horses have quite strong preferences on what they like and what they don't. I'm assuming you're girthing up nice and slowly etc. Are you sure your saddle fits? all the usual stuff. After a good fiddle with that I would probably look at ulcers as a first candidate.

ETS: sorry, I don't happen to have had one diagnosed. Just thought I'd mention the numbers I have come across on my random internet readings as they are really interesting I thought...
 
Hi, sorry you are having a few issues.

My boy was diagnosed with mild KS after we x-rayed his back following an accident on 22 October (a date branded on my brain). We were looking for a fracture because he was in so much pain, but fortunately didn't find one. The x-rays were sent off to Cambridge and diagnosed as 'mild' and probably resolvable with specific work.

However, I had started to suspect there might have been something wrong some time before because for the first two months I had him, he had been a sweetie, and then it was like a switch going off. He went from grass fat plodder requiring a lot of leg and seat to slightly more fit and toned in those two months. And then the explosions started. He was particularly bad in canter. Without warning his head would go between his knees and the bucks would kick the stars out of the sky had it been dark. Real rodeo style broncs. It scared the whatsits out of me. It happened every other time I rode him. In hindsight, when he was working properly there was an awful lot of tail swishing and ears back. I naively thought it was because I was making him work rather than just 'exercise' (he had done nothing for 6 months prior to purchase as his previous owner was pregnant). He had always pulled faces and made the odd cow kick when being tacked up.

I was told by several professionals, including my instructor, that it was because he had got fitter and was pressing buttons. I was petrified of him but determined to work it out. I felt utterly pathetic at not wanting to canter on the stubble field with everyone else out on a hack, but in truth he'd also started doing bucks in trot (!) and they showed no signs of stopping.

I also found that in just 2 months my saddle, which had been fitted to him on his arrival, no longer fitted and was pressing on the two areas where we subsequently found him to have the KS.

The work involves long and low in the EquiAmi for 12 weeks a minimum of 4 times per week at a minimum of 20 minutes, and long reining at least once per week, after he had recovered from the wrenching his SI joint took during the accident- approx 4 weeks. I was to ride for a maximum of 10 minutes once a week at about week 4, for two weeks, and then twice per week at week 6, and build up every two weeks to include an extra session for an extra amount of time. Bloody weather has put paid to that and we're a bit behind. This slow return to riding is in an effort to help him forget the pain.

I find that if I lunge him for 10 minutes before tacking him up, he doesn't do the cow kicks or snatch at the girth. Although he has had a T8 made to fit him and it really shouldn't need anything more than a regular numnah, he doesn't do the tail swishing and face pulling thing with a sheepskin numnah.

I have also been having him lasered (LLLT) once a week for 20 minutes and he is fine to tack up immediately after this, suggesting that this light, intense massage warms his muscles enough for it not to cause discomfort. Someone on here rather ingeniously rigged up an infra red light set using poultry lights and this has helped her cold-backed mare immensely.

Sorry, that's a long-winded way of saying that KS symptoms include a sudden change in behaviour following an increase in work and cold-backed reactions.

Take solace, though, that my vet says that if he X-rayed 100 horses, 70% would probably have KS and the one that presents the typical symptoms is not necessarily the one with the worst case on x-ray.
 
lyndagriffiths said:
First symptoms were objecting to being tacked up, final time he was tacked up his legs buckled in stable. Also with hindsight (so bloody perfect is hindsight) over time he had become very sensitive to grooming, generally more bad tempered (not like him) didnt like to turn sharply to close gate when being brought in and his aversion to jumping combinations (because he couldnt physically shorten up - hindsight again). He had been passed to me for dressage because of jumping issues and he was for a while marvelous at it but then he started objecting to certain movements on flat. Everyone else said he was just being Nappy - glad I stuck to my opinion that whilst he was quirky, he hadnt been a nasty horse and refered to Vets for full work up. He was exceptionally bad, beyond two sites of kissing spine, his back was so altered that ligaments were being squashed and furthermore had arthritic changes in pelvis that would have been expected in a 20+ year old. He was 7. Even though I had Insurance money to pay for treatment the Vets could do nothing, bless him. However, that is my story and unlikely that yours will be anywhere as severe but stay with your gut instinct and get it checked out. Good luck, hoping for a happy ending.
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:( I'm not sure whether he's been more sensitive/grumpy to groom, I don't think so. He HAS got more sensitive to being brushed on his face though was okay last night. And to be fair, in the whole 9 months I've had him he's NEVER liked his face being brushed. I don't *think* he's got more bad tempered, he is always an odd horse as some days his little ears are pricked and he is whinnying and whickering at me the whole time and some days he stands there almost dopey and sad, ears back (not pinned just not forward) but again, he has always been like that. Hmmm. Sorry to hear about yours, well done for listening to you gut though, there's a lot to be said. I really don't want to end up with my boy's legs buckling :(

ellie_e said:
My horse was dianosed a week ago, currently waiting for a bone scan and surgery. His KS isnt too bad, has 2 fusions and 1 thats worn.
He had been seen by a physio for about 9months before I got vet. He is very sharp to ride and also but things down to him being naughty/awkward.
His trot canter transitions are poor, (walk canter is fine), he struggles with leg yielding, he is alot weaker on the right rein compared to the left. I put all of this down to a schooling issue, and with physio's advised worked him in a pessoa, 2/3times a week and he seemed to improve, however he seemed to stop developing and improving so needed to look into things further.
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This is very scary as it is very similar to him. He's not sharp to ride to be fair but his trot canter transitions on the right rein are poor and always have been, struggles with correct lead (though not on the lunge, on the lunge he gets it perfectly every time, I also get it more when I'm in lessons) He struggles with leg yielding although has gotten a lot better but to be fair I really do think that IS down to lack of schooling as he was so green when he came to me. He is also weaker on the right rein, always has been. These past 9 months he has improved leaps and bounds however these past couple of months I haven't seen an improvement. Yes, obviously the last month has been him in pain so it may just be that but i'm not sure.

Gah, I could just be being paranoid. It may just be ulcers or nothing. If you look for something hard enough you'll find it. However if something is wrong I need to find out.

My dilemma though is I need to sell this horse in the next year, I didn't buy him as my 'forever horse' I bought him because I fell in love with him, realised how genuine and green he was and thought, well, with time and work he will be a lovely little horse and I will sell him on and buy my 'baby' to keep for many, many years. So as you can imagine, I will be in a predicament if it is anything sinister as it will seriously complicate me selling him and he's 12 now so I don't want to be keeping him for years and years as harsh as that sounds.
 
Hereshoping, was that the vet school? I'm friends with Fran and the on call lot as they were my vets for ages so just wondering who you know :)

ETS: glad to hear your vet's experience backs up the numbers I have pulled from papers. Always nice to know I haven't completely misinterpreted!
 
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Jesstinsel said:
Hereshoping, was that the vet school? I'm friends with Fran and the on call lot as they were my vets for ages so just wondering who you know :)

ETS: glad to hear your vet's experience backs up the numbers I have pulled from papers. Always nice to know I haven't completely misinterpreted!
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Hi, yes, my vet sent the x-rays to the vet school. They were seen by...oh, Lordy, my mind has gone blank, but the spine specialist - is it Carole? Catherine? Pam? She is good friends with my vet who was in Newmarket but has now moved to Cambs.
 
Hereshoping said:
Take solace, though, that my vet says that if he X-rayed 100 horses, 70% would probably have KS and the one that presents the typical symptoms is not necessarily the one with the worst case on x-ray.
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Absolutely. And that is why, once I'd seen KS on radiographs, I'd want the back blocked out before deciding whether they were the cause of the problem. If you block the area and the tense grumpy horse suddenly floats along with a smile then Bob's your etc. If there isn't much difference then you need to be looking elsewhere, regardless of radiographic changes.

I do mean blocking for diagnostic purposes, not injecting the area for treatment purposes. People often confuse the two.
 
SummerxStarsx said:
:( I'm not sure whether he's been more sensitive/grumpy to groom, I don't think so. He HAS got more sensitive to being brushed on his face though was okay last night. And to be fair, in the whole 9 months I've had him he's NEVER liked his face being brushed. I don't *think* he's got more bad tempered, he is always an odd horse as some days his little ears are pricked and he is whinnying and whickering at me the whole time and some days he stands there almost dopey and sad, ears back (not pinned just not forward) but again, he has always been like that. Hmmm. Sorry to hear about yours, well done for listening to you gut though, there's a lot to be said. I really don't want to end up with my boy's legs buckling :(



This is very scary as it is very similar to him. He's not sharp to ride to be fair but his trot canter transitions on the right rein are poor and always have been, struggles with correct lead (though not on the lunge, on the lunge he gets it perfectly every time, I also get it more when I'm in lessons) He struggles with leg yielding although has gotten a lot better but to be fair I really do think that IS down to lack of schooling as he was so green when he came to me. He is also weaker on the right rein, always has been. These past 9 months he has improved leaps and bounds however these past couple of months I haven't seen an improvement. Yes, obviously the last month has been him in pain so it may just be that but i'm not sure.

Gah, I could just be being paranoid. It may just be ulcers or nothing. If you look for something hard enough you'll find it. However if something is wrong I need to find out.

My dilemma though is I need to sell this horse in the next year, I didn't buy him as my 'forever horse' I bought him because I fell in love with him, realised how genuine and green he was and thought, well, with time and work he will be a lovely little horse and I will sell him on and buy my 'baby' to keep for many, many years. So as you can imagine, I will be in a predicament if it is anything sinister as it will seriously complicate me selling him and he's 12 now so I don't want to be keeping him for years and years as harsh as that sounds.
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Mine is 8, I asked vet very open and honestly would he have a competitive career again post surgery. As I couldnt keep him as a 'happy hack' as he doesnt find anything about hacking 'happy' :rolleyes: and I couldnt afford to fund another. Hes a WB costs me a fortune to keep warm, and feed and is very high maintence which is fine, if I can ride him. Vet said theres no reason why he wouldnt make a full recovery and go back to where he is now, just hopefully without any pain.
Our plans this year were to event for a season then either keep him, or sell him. Im not sure there is a market for nice horses who have had KS surgery? I may be wrong, but as a buyer It would put me off, or I would want it seriously cheap ( I was hoping to sell him for £6-7k)
Honestly I would speak to your vet, get him scoped I paid for the scoping privetly was about £200 so not a huge amount compared to xray's and nerve blocks. I would imagine alot of horses will show some signs of KS, my BS trainer who also does alot for BE and the olympic team etc said she worked on a survey and looked at all high level horses in BD, BS and BE and a high % all had a degree of KS, I guess its just how they manage it,and the pain.
 
Gamebird said:
Absolutely. And that is why, once I'd seen KS on radiographs, I'd want the back blocked out before deciding whether they were the cause of the problem. If you block the area and the tense grumpy horse suddenly floats along with a smile then Bob's your etc. If there isn't much difference then you need to be looking elsewhere, regardless of radiographic changes.

I do mean blocking for diagnostic purposes, not injecting the area for treatment purposes. People often confuse the two.
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Mine was blocked and showed no difference, Vet said its not always as straight forward as blocking and then riding a perfect horse. If blocks arent in correct place, or you get remembered pain etc etc, we now have to wait to bone scan, which in itself is a pain in the a** waiting around to see if insurance will ok it!
 
My friends horse was diagnosed with KS back end of last year and she only found out becuase he went into vets with a hock issue which was very minor and further investigation showed it was KS, previous to this he has competed BE all summer and had some of his best results showing no problems jumping, schooling etc and was ready to step up to BE100 the only symptom which might have linked to KS was his grumpy attitude but as he had always been like this was never classed as a symptom and was put down to his personality.. he had the surgery just before christmas and all went very well yet he was still a grumpy ******. Just to add he's a tb x racer, which like others have said seems to be more common in.. i would look at other options first and if no joy with a diagnosis then pursure X Rays further for KS. :) good luck and hope all works out for you.
 
Okay, so REALLY numpty Q here sorry.

He has only displayed this aversion to saddle/girth in past 4-5 weeks. IF KS were the problem, would this have come on very recently or would he always have been iffy to girth/saddle?

I ask because it ties in with a similar timescale to when he was clipped/feed changed etc. Also, I remember being at a comp in the summer and a lady was there who has known him years (long before me) and said oh how's he going yadda yadda and then I can't remember what we were talking about but she made a flippant comment like 'oh, because he's always been a bit cold backed hasn't he.' I was like 'Eh? Has he?' she was like 'Oh yes'

Now I only got him in April so this is my first winter with him. ANOTHER numpty Q but if a horse IS cold backed is it worse in winter or same all year around?
 
ellie_e said:
Mine was blocked and showed no difference, Vet said its not always as straight forward as blocking and then riding a perfect horse. If blocks arent in correct place, or you get remembered pain etc etc, we now have to wait to bone scan, which in itself is a pain in the a** waiting around to see if insurance will ok it!
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I'd definitely want to see a change - perhaps not quite as dramatic as I'd described (though those ones are brilliant!) but a definite difference in stride length etc. I agree that remembered pain might be an issue, but the horse should still move better once blocked.

Good luck with the bone scan. I think that's a sensible step as it will show whether there's an active process there. There isn't always enough room in the insurance budget to scan and then operate/rehab if necessary which can be a bit of a pain.
 
I thought my horse had ulcers, and it turned out to be KS. She was always rather scrawny, but was put down to having poor teeth and picky appetite. She also windsucked, which got worse and worse over time.

The first other symptoms were she started getting girthy. Change of girth sorted this. I didnt have any transport at the time, so getting a gastroscope done on her would be tricky (and would have cost a couple of hundred quid transporting her to the vets). I got in touch with a mobile vet, and we waited a couple of months for him to come and scope her, when he was in the area.

In the mean time, she was not being ridden, due to me being busy. Came to do the scope - I hadnt seen the horse for approx three weeks. Took rug off and it was rather embarrassing - yard hadn't given her any hard feed, so she was in poor body condition and her coat looked awful. Anyway scoped and didn't find any ulcers. Did a blood test and turned out there was something else going on, which we ended up giving a month's worth of antibiotics for, which appeared to cure the problem.

Yard started feeding her to some extent, which helped with the body condition, but she never really fattened up. Started bringing her back into very light work, and she was a bit fidgety being mounted, but didn't think much of it. Took her out for a lesson, and she seemed very "nervous" to start with, but once she had settled she was fine.

She then carried on being a pain to get on, but with her being 4, just thought she was being a baby! Took her out to a SJ practise day, and she was a real nightmare for the rider to get on, and for the first five mins, she then settled down, jumped everything put in front of her, and didn't show any problems whatsoever. Then took 45 mins to load on the way home.

The getting on got worse, so I tried taking it back to basics - leading her around the mounting block, giving treats etc if she stood still. Eventually got to the stage where I could get foot in the stirrup in saddle and ride her round. She did feel very tense under saddle, however the two times I did this there were children shrieking outside the indoor school, so assumed that they were upsetting her.

She then went away for schooling, and when they started doing more work with her, she really, really played up. Got vet out, and tried a couple of things, and in the end, it turned out she had bad KS, and potential problems with hocks. Whilst she was away for schooling she was fed up, and it was then noticeable that she did not have the correct musculature, and lumpy bits along her spine.

Anyway so point being, the symptoms pointed to a couple of things, and had I investigated properly a year before it was diagnosed, I might have been able to do something about it. Other problems included me being sold a saddle that never could have fitted her, which probably didnt help the KS. She didnt have a great digestive system, however if that yard had a more appopriate feeding regime for her, we could well have picked up on the problem earlier.

Moral of the story - take the horse to the vet. Get investigated for KS, and as game birds suggestion, see if this is the problem. If not scope for ulcers.
 
Gamebird said:
I'd definitely want to see a change - perhaps not quite as dramatic as I'd described (though those ones are brilliant!) but a definite difference in stride length etc. I agree that remembered pain might be an issue, but the horse should still move better once blocked.

Good luck with the bone scan. I think that's a sensible step as it will show whether there's an active process there. There isn't always enough room in the insurance budget to scan and then operate/rehab if necessary which can be a bit of a pain.
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Thanks GB. I would of hoped for improvement but we spent most of the time on 2legs or being blown side wards in the howling rain and wind :mad:
He was insured for £7k vets fees, but I renewed his policy and cant remember if I lowered it to £5k and cant find the new policy to check :mad: If I did lower it, I will be SO annoyed with myself.
Ive never had to claim on insurance before what a hassle it is!!!!
 
I know I keep banging on about this on other threads :) but girthiness / reactivity to saddle can be muscular pain around the pectorals / girth area / chest. Mine was a total extreme sport to saddle or even to put a roller on. She had ulcers which we treated, but was still just the same. We discovered she had patches of serious back muscle spasms from the poll to the tail bless her because of working with an old injury that wasn't treated... we worked through her spasmed areas gradually with an osteo because it was more than one treatment's work by far, and even once her back was soft and completely non-reactive, she was still very girthy and would run away from the roller (wasn't being ridden at this point obv)... then when we got to the later treatments and the osteo worked on her pectorals, between her front legs, chest and under her shoulders, she came back a completely different horse. You can stand and tickle her under there, rub her skin around, saddle and roller without her even turning an eye to you.

Back x rays aren't horribly expensive so you should be able to get an answer fairly easily (and it's always reassuring to have seen inside even if there's nothing to see!) but I think muscular probs in the undercarriage(!) as a cause of girthiness is often overlooked. She would react when the saddle or roller went on her back because she knew the girth was coming, not because her back was still sore.
 
philamena said:
I know I keep banging on about this on other threads :) but girthiness / reactivity to saddle can be muscular pain around the pectorals / girth area / chest. Mine was a total extreme sport to saddle or even to put a roller on. She had ulcers which we treated, but was still just the same. We discovered she had patches of serious back muscle spasms from the poll to the tail bless her because of working with an old injury that wasn't treated... we worked through her spasmed areas gradually with an osteo because it was more than one treatment's work by far, and even once her back was soft and completely non-reactive, she was still very girthy and would run away from the roller (wasn't being ridden at this point obv)... then when we got to the later treatments and the osteo worked on her pectorals, between her front legs, chest and under her shoulders, she came back a completely different horse. You can stand and tickle her under there, rub her skin around, saddle and roller without her even turning an eye to you.

Back x rays aren't horribly expensive so you should be able to get an answer fairly easily (and it's always reassuring to have seen inside even if there's nothing to see!) but I think muscular probs in the undercarriage(!) as a cause of girthiness is often overlooked. She would react when the saddle or roller went on her back because she knew the girth was coming, not because her back was still sore.
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Interesting!!

See, I can groom, rub, stroke his back and girth area with no reaction. It is only when he sees sight of the saddle/girth. Once girth is done he seems fine and lets me get on etc. It is just the sight of the saddle and girth and the process of doing the girth up that he reacts to. By reacts I mean ears back, worried look on his face and CONSTANT moving about whilst I'm adjusting the saddle, doing up the girth etc.

I noticed last night that due to some loss of topline these past few weeks the saddle doesn't fit as well as it did. Not horrendous by any means but I would have said 3 months ago it was a perfect fit whereas now perhaps a little wide. So will get saddler out too.
 
My horse only really showed it as struggling in canter. Walk/trot work as good as ever. No issues with girthing etc although I had thought he seemed a little under the weather/not his usual self for a few weeks leading up to having a lameness work up done. He had also lost muscle definition in his neck. He had a full body scan, then blocks done at places in his neck and back which identified the problem area.
 
humblepie said:
My horse only really showed it as struggling in canter. Walk/trot work as good as ever. No issues with girthing etc although I had thought he seemed a little under the weather/not his usual self for a few weeks leading up to having a lameness work up done. He had also lost muscle definition in his neck. He had a full body scan, then blocks done at places in his neck and back which identified the problem area.
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When you say struggling do you mean to get in/get correct lead or to stay in canter?

TBH, his canter has been worrying me for a while now as his walk and trot has come on loads but his canter has never really caught up. I keep wondering what I can do differently and thinking after 9 months I should be seeing more than a 'slight' improvement. I do feel an improvement in lessons though which could well indicate rider error.

If physically everything is fine I may get my instructor on him and see how he canters with her.
 
My gelding has got a bit girthy over the last 6 weeks as well, I put it down to him being clipped - he has a full clip with no saddle patch. His new saddlecloth has rubbed a bit of fur off from behind his saddle, so will have to stop using it. His hair hasn't really grown back as quickly as usual so i'm going to see if he's ok once his hair is back! He is more senstive to being brushed in his saddle area with a bristled brush but ok with a soft brush. He has got slightly worse with being girthy though, i thought he may have got better as the hair grew back slightly but not sure if the hair has grown much at all!

Its interesting that 70% of horses have signs of KS though! :eek: x

My back massaging lady gave him a full massage - costs £20 and said he had a lot of pressure in his poll area, down his neck and through his back but he was better the second time she saw him. Going to stick with them every 6 weeks to treat him and to loosen up any muscle aches he may have. Obviously they cant diagnose KS but can possibly help indicate where they have pain/strained areas x
 
I think the issue is also with the fact the reactions you're seeing can be attributed to lots of different things - most pain related, but also behavioural - they're classic 'I don't like this' evasion reactions. So whether it be kissing spines, ulcers, sore muscles or winter grumpiness, it's difficult to pinpoint anything without investigation.

Have you had a full vet work up done? For the cost of a call out and a consultation I'd be discussing the lot with the vet, mentioning where the issues occur and when they started.

You say you've changed his feed recently - why and what to? My old TB had a reaction to Alfa A/alfalfa that you could have said looked like he had kissing spines, he was so extreme....didn't want to be groomed, girthed, ridden or rugged - his skin was so sensitive you would have thought he was in lots of pain.
 
I'd start with the saddle. I was having problems with my horse, I just could not get him working into an even contact. He felt wonky, lazy, trying to tuck his head in behind the bridle, if I pushed him on he would rush instead of lengthening. It was driving me crazy! He was grumpy being brushed, kicking out being saddled.
Pretty obvious now but looking back I had two reputable saddlers come out and say my saddle was fine and it had been bought for him brand new 18 months previously so I did not think.
I carried on and then one day I just thought my saddle was too wide. It wasn't on his withers but it seemed to be digging in behind his shoulders and I felt like it was tipping me forwards.
I tried a friends saddle and he felt so much better. My friends saddle was a Kieffer and to my untrained eye it looked a perfect fit and I just got a good feeling from my horse about it. So I bought two beautiful second hand ones. A 2yr old dressage one and a 1yr old gp/jump one. Both exactly the same size and for a fraction of their new retail price.
My horse is like a different animal now.
I got a different saddler out just to check them but my instincts said they were right. The saddler said they were perfect. The flocking on one needed adjusting slightly and that was it!
Maybe I just got lucky but the amount of times with this horse and my last horse that saddlers have said that a saddle has fitted and yet iv'e had a niggling doubt about it has been a lot. So from now on I'm going to listen to myslf and my horse with regards to these sorts of things.
Before changing the saddle I was on the brink of going down the full work up route and I'm so glad I didn't and that I started with the simple things first. I also had a back person out and they specifically found tension behind the top of his shoulders and the base of the wither, bascially where the old saddle was putting pressure.
I also know that I am slightly wonky myself and I tend to sit to the right a bit on my horse, of course that makes him a little stiff on one rein.
I do sometimes think that if you fully assessed every horse with bone scans and work ups and everything you are bound to find *something*, just like we would with us, we all have our aches and pains and weak spots! However if the horse can cope, it's not in pain and it doesn't affect their work I often think it's best to leave well alone. I'd always start with the simple things first like the saddle or teeth or schooling/rider and then if they don't work then explore further :).
Good luck.
 
P.s my horse was a pain on alfalfa as well. Itchy and cribbing and ansty. He's best on simple chaff and pony nuts. I think fed can make a big difference as well. x
 
Well you know about Delicia as you have me on facebook. :)
She has been on/off lame for over a year and in august went lame and never came right! Canter has always been an issue but one day she flately refused to canter ever again! Instead she was bunny hoping, disuniting, rrearing, bucking etc etc. She was diagnoised via xrays and bone scans KS, SI disease and a small issue in her pastern, fetlock and both hind suspensories.

I wouldnt jumpt to conclusions about your horse haivng KS, KS can really only be properly diagnosed through xray etc, my hors ehad similar symptoms to your's when she had ulcers.

I would rule out other issues first, i.e. saddle, teeth, muscular, ulcers etc etc. If you are relaly worried only a vet can really advise you :)
 
Twiglet said:
I think the issue is also with the fact the reactions you're seeing can be attributed to lots of different things - most pain related, but also behavioural - they're classic 'I don't like this' evasion reactions. So whether it be kissing spines, ulcers, sore muscles or winter grumpiness, it's difficult to pinpoint anything without investigation.

Have you had a full vet work up done? For the cost of a call out and a consultation I'd be discussing the lot with the vet, mentioning where the issues occur and when they started.

You say you've changed his feed recently - why and what to? My old TB had a reaction to Alfa A/alfalfa that you could have said looked like he had kissing spines, he was so extreme....didn't want to be groomed, girthed, ridden or rugged - his skin was so sensitive you would have thought he was in lots of pain.
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Yes, nail on head I suppose. It could be anything.

I changed him to P+P and Honeychop with garlic.
 
Book a vet.

You could try simple things like totally changing his diet to nothing but hay/haylage and a balancer to try this, and try getting your instructor on him, but I wouldn't be wasting my money on a saddler and physio without the vet looking at the horse first.

Physio+saddler is going to cost £100+ which is a good part towards going to the vets bill.
 
Firewell said:
Before changing the saddle I was on the brink of going down the full work up route and I'm so glad I didn't and that I started with the simple things first. I also had a back person out and they specifically found tension behind the top of his shoulders and the base of the wither, bascially where the old saddle was putting pressure.
I also know that I am slightly wonky myself and I tend to sit to the right a bit on my horse, of course that makes him a little stiff on one rein.
I do sometimes think that if you fully assessed every horse with bone scans and work ups and everything you are bound to find *something*, just like we would with us, we all have our aches and pains and weak spots! However if the horse can cope, it's not in pain and it doesn't affect their work I often think it's best to leave well alone. I'd always start with the simple things first like the saddle or teeth or schooling/rider and then if they don't work then explore further :).
Good luck.
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Yes, physio found pain with him around top of shoulders and base of wither and I noticed last night my saddle is a bit too wide now. I have booked in to have saddler out.

I agree, every horse will have something upon investigation and sometimes it just isn't worth it!
 
wench said:
Book a vet.

You could try simple things like totally changing his diet to nothing but hay/haylage and a balancer to try this, and try getting your instructor on him, but I wouldn't be wasting my money on a saddler and physio without the vet looking at the horse first.

Physio+saddler is going to cost £100+ which is a good part towards going to the vets bill.
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Well my yard has a free monthly call out day so I will see when the next one is and get him booked in.
 
That's a good way of saving money. However I would ensure you stipulate to the vets what you think may be wrong... as there's no point paying £30/40 for the vet just to look at the horse being trotted up and them saying yep I think its x and I will come back tomorrow with the correct equipment = another examination fee and call out charge.
 
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