Symptoms of Kissing Spines.......?

Yeh, thought that. Am going to ring beforehand and just inform them.

Call out fees are about £70 so if I can save at least that I will as we may get vet out and there ISN'T anything wrong and with osteo, new girth and fleecy cover (thought it may help when he started being fidgety a few weeks ago) this is all adding up already.
 
£70 - thats expensive - are they a fair distance from you?

ETS - I thought a new girth had solved my horses "girthiness", but it was only temporary.

Has anyone got a saddle you can borrow to try out if it is yours causing the problem. I threw a £1000 down the drain purchasing the wrong one for mine? Who is your saddler btw? Just wondering if it may be the one that I used?
 
wench said:
That's a good way of saving money. However I would ensure you stipulate to the vets what you think may be wrong... as there's no point paying £30/40 for the vet just to look at the horse being trotted up and them saying yep I think its x and I will come back tomorrow with the correct equipment = another examination fee and call out charge.
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This, especially if the horse isnt presenting with the symptoms all the time, otherwise you know they will be fine when the vets there :)
 
Haven't read all the posts since mine but in response to your query - my horse is mid teens ex racehorse, been a top show horse since, but just didn't seem himself this summer. He was sound though but there was just a nagging feeling not all was well. Then he reached the point where he was going disunited in canter and going choppy even on the lunge which was when I decided something was definitely wrong and the vet came out.
 
I have a 7yo that was diagnosed in May.

First signs were a reluctance to go forward, but only occasionally. And girthiness.

Graduated to spinning and dropping his shoulder nearly everytime I rode, he really became quite dangerous.

He then started getting really short and stuffy in his stride, bucking on the lunge, and cold backed. Had an osteopath that said he had tightness through his back that she couldn't see a reason for. He has 4 kissing spines in that area (at the back of the saddle), had steroid injections and a Tildren drip and has been back in full work since September.

To be honest KS symptoms vary greatly and not only that but they could mean a lot of things. The prognosis for most KS cases is pretty good, but make sure you're well insured.
 
Well, spoke to old owner earlier on the phone. She said he has always been cold backed which is slightly worse in the winter and used to tuck him bum under etc when tacking up (she had him 6 years!) She said never really been iffy with girth in winter though.

I have a Q. IF it was KS, would he be okay on the lunge in walk, trot and canter? Like if he struggles to get correct lead ridden but not on the lunge? If it was KS would he not be able to canter on lunge either?
 
I forgot to say my mums old horse had kissing spines. First of all she was cold backed but she had been cold backed since she was a youngster. Then she dropped off her performance and couldn't do the combintaions out evening at Novice level and started stopping which was unlike her as she was brave. Then she started bucking... Not all the time but when she did they were BIG. I knew her for about 5 years and those symptoms progressed over that time period. It go to the point where she bucked my mum off a couple of time.
She was fine being lunged and worked in hand though and her flatwork was good in between the cold backed bits and the bucking.
Turns out she had 7 DSP's touching under her saddle poor love. Hers was too serious to operate on and she was retired. She would have been in a lot of pain especially jumping
I do think the symptoms vary so much from horse to horse, our mare didn't shuffle or have problems striking off for canter and she was forwards she would just shoot off bucking every now an again.
 
Secret_Santa said:
Delicia was getting worse :)

You cannot diagnose KS without xrays etc! Stop worrying,...and if you are worried, see a vet :)
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I know, it's just a lot of the 'symptoms' if you like are adding up :(

Firewell said:
I forgot to say my mums old horse had kissing spines. First of all she was cold backed but she had been cold backed since she was a youngster. Then she dropped off her performance and couldn't do the combintaions out evening at Novice level and started stopping which was unlike her as she was brave. Then she started bucking... Not all the time but when she did they were BIG. I knew her for about 5 years and those symptoms progressed over that time period. It go to the point where she bucked my mum off a couple of time.
She was fine being lunged and worked in hand though and her flatwork was good in between the cold backed bits and the bucking.
Turns out she had 7 DSP's touching under her saddle poor love. Hers was too serious to operate on and she was retired. She would have been in a lot of pain especially jumping
I do think the symptoms vary so much from horse to horse, our mare didn't shuffle or have problems striking off for canter and she was forwards she would just shoot off bucking every now an again.
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Argh, trouble is you could be describing 50 out of thre 52 horses on our yard. Nearly all of them do something. Yes, it could be behaivoural but then it could also be something physical if they bothered to delve into it. Perhaps I am opening a can of worms, gah.

Okay, so will probably get shot down for this but he's my horse and I want to do what I think is best. I was talking to a lady down the yard tonight whose TB had suspected ulcers (never scoped though so not confirmed) she put him on a trial of Gastroaid and another gastric supplement. Within 2 weeks he was back to his normal self. This was 8 months ago and she took him off them a couple of months back and he's been fine ever since.

SO, tomorrow I am going to go buy some Gastroaid or similar and put him on a trial of that for a couple of weeks. He's only just had the osteo so I know he's okay and been done there. Saddler's coming to check saddle soon too. IF there's no improvement in 2 weeks after Gastroaid trial and saddle check then, at the end of the month when I actually have some MONEY I will get vet to x ray for KS. I just don't have a spare £250-£300 atm for that. Saddle check will be minimum as it's a yard visit so no call out fee and lady at yard said Gastroaid wasn't very expensive for a tub so I think that's worth going down first, for me anyway. If he's no better in a few weeks then I will have to shell out for vet and x rays but I don't want to think worst case scenario yet. (even though I already am!)
 
If he is insured you will need to report investigation to insurers and they should pay; you will only pay excess provided that there is something wrong with him (otherwise you pay the lot)
I have had my exracer for over 6 yrs and he didn't display any of those issues. He has always been a bit tricky but he is a flighty spooky horse. He also was very particular about who rode him.

He came in from the field one day slightly off.
He then started to lose performance. Got him investigate, 5 close spines, none impinging because I rode him very round but over time they would impinge so 3 removed. Been 6 months since op and have another 2 mths to wait until I can put a saddle on him. He has been boxrested the entire time due to muddy fields. Can't wait until he can go out again (neither can he!)
 
Are you not insured?

Because if you suspect something is up (KS wise) you need to inform your insurance company and if when x-rayed they do find something your insurance should pay.
 
Yes I am insured but this is all just speculative at the moment. At the end of the month if he's still no better I will report suspected KS to insurers and get vet out.

My insurance excess is about £350 anyway which would probably be the cost of the xrays.
 
My young horse was suspected to have kissing spine. His back was checked by a very reputable chiropracter who was almost convinced. He was in the process of being backed at the time (was ridden bareback at that stage) and since the manipulation had no effect and he had previously had a short bute trial I opted to go straight for xray. I am pleased to report that he does not have KS. His trainer and the chiropracter were convinced so although he displayed a number of the symptoms and characteristics....he does not have it, so there is always hope and from the research I did at the time, it is by no means a problem that can't be treated.
 
My mare liked to buck, it was just her way and she was seen regularly by therapists and vet.

At one point I had to livery her in a different catchment area. On that yard the very experienced YO informed me that mare had obvious case of KS, worst she'd seen, all because she enjoyed bucking in the field and broncing me off!

The yard vet came out and agreed with YO re KS plus said she had a spavin so was referred to vet hospital. The vet school gave her a clean bill of health with absolutely no KS.

Ironically she was pts less than 3mths later with very advanced navicular; this was missed by three separate practices. At that point I didn't know about barefoot and believed/ trusted my practice when they said barefoot wouldn't work and there were no oot
 
Gah phone!!

They said her hoof balance was good and nothing could be done. Unfortunately now I realise her hoof balance wasn't good and there could have been options.

That's by the by but my point is stop listening to other people; if you think there is a problem get a GOOD vet ( not always easy) and take it from there.

You do seem to post a bit about perceived problems while stating this horse is a bring on to sell. While forums are a useful resource you may find it bites you on the bum when it comes to selling. There are a few people on here who buy, bring on and sell but while they'll post questions their horses never have problems or issues ;) might be worth emulating.

Good luck with it all.
 
Mine got diagnosed in Oct.

Physio has worked on him since July- just as part of his rehab from a leg fracture.
But in work he was a lil sensitive to girth and stumbling alot. Struggled alittle to get top line on him but he hadnt been back in work that long. At first thought it was the weak leg, but then started with the other front leg. Metacam trial made no difference.

Vet watched him walk up and down poked and prodded his back. Said muscle wise all was fab, but to touch the spine mild reaction. Even setting up the xray machine she said she didnt think he was reactive enough for it to be kissing spine but she was willig to be proven wrong.

Anyway she was speechless at the xrays, she couldnt believe he had shown no real discomfort or "symptoms" as his back was a mess. He is a GP dressage horse, old school bred/ traditonal KWPN as they used to be. Never showed a real problem.

Half a dozen injections later and a couple in the hocks. 5 days grazing. 3weeks long reining and light "round and deep work" in hand. She came back and he looks different horse. No reaction when touch the back. Vet said she was "shocked" at the difference. We thought we would be lucky to hack him, then we are being told to crack on for next season.
He has ulcers. these are managed v.easily by high fibre diet & keeping him in work.

You have a plan but I would keep it more simple. if he trots up sound on hard & soft circles then just keep him working, a mix of straight line hacking -hills! and lunging in a pessoa, over poles etc. all to build up his top line. (I have a bad back, if I dont keep up with Pilates and core strength it hurts a lot (slipped discs) same with them, let alone having to carry saddle and jockey.) He isnt eventing or competing high level, but him on full fibre diet. and see what your left with.

Its so easy to sit here and "say" it but sometimes when your emotionally involved you panic over small things. Take a deep breath and write it all down and think about it logically. take fortnightly photos to see if he changes. Chances are if you panicing and tense, it is gonna make him tense when you bring saddle out etc. Maybe he is sick of school - haha and thats why he isnt keen on saddle?!
Plus remember its cold, and damp, and windy and miserable. everythings soggy. Its not nice weather, everything always looks and feels yuk is in this weather.
 
My horse was diagnosed with kissing spines, following x-rays, after a rapid drop in performance at Weston Park in 2011. This is a horse who is a machine cross country, and he threw the towel in at about fence 8 and really didnt want to know.

We managed to treat him over the following summer with steroid injections. However after the second lot of injections wore off, we bit the bullet and had him operated on.

He had 8 fused vetebrae. The worst our vets have seen. Some horses are super sensitive to it , but Bruno is such a star that he carried on regardless until it got unbearable.

Looking back on the five years of owning him, he has always been grumpy in the stable (we put it down to years on a racing yard), always been unhappy to be girthed up and prostested. He has always been happier taking off from fences far away, rather than using his back to jump.

When the symptoms got worse, in the summer of 2012, he could not canter of the left leg without going disunited. He also felt crippled all round in trot with a marked shortening of the off fore on the left rein.

If kissing spines is something that you find you have, i would, touch wood, recommend the surgery. He has been back in ridden work for a month, and has never felt better.

I jumped him for the first time today and he is finally prepared to get in close to fences and use his back to jump. I was amazed to tell the truth.

Bit of an off the point post, but i hope the symptoms make sense!


**addition** - he found lateral work very difficult, though always tried, which i have put down to his over generous nature. As well as that his medium trot became non existant, having been excellent
 
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It is also worth remembering that 15 out of 20 horses may scan positively for kissing spines.

However only 1 of these is likely to have their performance affected by the condition.

I guess I am trying to say - eliminate any other issues first, as even if xrays reveal kissing spines, they may not actually be causing your horse any specific issues.
 
I know everyone is saying its not the end of the world if the horse has KS and no it probably wouldn't be. However I made the decision a couple of months ago to sell him fairly soon (as in next 6-7 months) as I have had him nearly a year now and quite honestly I just can't afford it anymore. I used to be okay but moved out a couple of months ago and am really struggling with rent, bills and horse. I have 3k of debt that needs to be paid off and I can only do that by selling really. So yes, if he does have it it is going to cause problems if I have to have him operated on as it will mean months and months and months of rest and then rehabilitation and bringing him back to work again. I know that is part of the risk when you have a horse but all my other horses have been 'to keep' from the offset and he hasn't and quite simply I don't know if I can afford it. No, scrap that I CAN'T afford it. I need to straighten out my finances and get debt free before the banks come knocking.
 
I jumped him the other day and he was taking off so far away from the jumps :( he struggles with left canter and sometimes goes disunited if he gets the wrong lead :( all these things are adding up but I'm really trying to not put 2+2 together and get 5!
 
No offence, but it sounds like the situation has progressed to the point where you will struggle to sell him, diagnosis or not. At least if you know what's up you can make an informed decision.

I am very conservative, at least by UK standards, and a big fan of doing as much as possible with management, riding etc. But sometimes horses need what they need, alas. And a conservative approach doesn't really go with selling - not disclosing a problem isn't an option, obviously, and it sounds like perhaps you've gone past the point where you could wilfully plead ignorance.

Sorry, it sucks. :( Can you at least get a second opinion on the horse from an experienced horseman you trust? An objective eye might pick up something less alarming in play, or suggest other options.
 
TBH - you could be writing of x thousands for the want of spending the £350 excess - I would honestly bite the bullet and get the vet - sod this waiting for a free zone day - the best vets dont usually attend on one of these anyways - its more for the routine injections etc.

I think you have been concerned for some time now - and if you are looking at the pts option - then you have just wasted another 2 or 3 months worth of costs.

Sorry to be blunt but both he and you need the vet - you more for your own sanity - and putting it off is not going to help your finances.

Good luck
 
TarrSteps said:
No offence, but it sounds like the situation has progressed to the point where you will struggle to sell him, diagnosis or not. At least if you know what's up you can make an informed decision.

I am very conservative, at least by UK standards, and a big fan of doing as much as possible with management, riding etc. But sometimes horses need what they need, alas. And a conservative approach doesn't really go with selling - not disclosing a problem isn't an option, obviously, and it sounds like perhaps you've gone past the point where you could wilfully plead ignorance.

Sorry, it sucks. :( Can you at least get a second opinion on the horse from an experienced horseman you trust? An objective eye might pick up something less alarming in play, or suggest other options.
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This. You can wait and see and hope he improves, and if he does, then great. But if not, then you can't really sell him like this, and would have to disclose the issues to a potential buyer.

If it comes to it, can you not move home to your parents again for a while - in order to get him sorted and sold?
 
What does your instructor think? I'm assuming he was a "project" as you bought him to sell on so imagine he came with issues? You may be jumping to conclusions over what is actually a schooling issue that has escalated.

I would first seek the opinion of a good,well respected instructor or horseperson and then if deemed necessary involve the vet. It could well be a back or neck issue but make sure the obvious has been ruled out first.
 
TarrSteps said:
No offence, but it sounds like the situation has progressed to the point where you will struggle to sell him, diagnosis or not. At least if you know what's up you can make an informed decision.

I am very conservative, at least by UK standards, and a big fan of doing as much as possible with management, riding etc. But sometimes horses need what they need, alas. And a conservative approach doesn't really go with selling - not disclosing a problem isn't an option, obviously, and it sounds like perhaps you've gone past the point where you could wilfully plead ignorance.

Sorry, it sucks. :( Can you at least get a second opinion on the horse from an experienced horseman you trust? An objective eye might pick up something less alarming in play, or suggest other options.
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Can I just say that if there IS something wrong with this horse then there is no way I would try and sell him on. I just want to clarify that! I am honest as the day is long and there is NO WAY I would consider selling somebody a horse if I thought it had KS, or other and hadn't been treated. At the end of the day he's my horse and it's my problem.

Yes, to be fair I haven't had a lesson since he started being funny. I am going to book in for one next Sat I think and I'll ride him for half an hour and then get my trainer on him for the last half an hour and see what she thinks. As she hasn't given me a lesson since he started being funny (about a month now) it will be interesting to see if she picks up on anything.
 
xspiralx said:
This. You can wait and see and hope he improves, and if he does, then great. But if not, then you can't really sell him like this, and would have to disclose the issues to a potential buyer.

If it comes to it, can you not move home to your parents again for a while - in order to get him sorted and sold?
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As above, I am NOT a dodgy person or seller and would NEVER sell a horse onto someone if it had known potential issues.

IF he does have it and I do opt for surgery then yes, I will have to move back home, find cheap grass livery or cheap DIY livery for him somewhere, take his shoes off and just keep him as cheaply as possible and try to clear some debt.
 
MegaBeast said:
What does your instructor think? I'm assuming he was a "project" as you bought him to sell on so imagine he came with issues? You may be jumping to conclusions over what is actually a schooling issue that has escalated.

I would first seek the opinion of a good,well respected instructor or horseperson and then if deemed necessary involve the vet. It could well be a back or neck issue but make sure the obvious has been ruled out first.
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Instructor hasn't seen him since he's started being funny as I haven't had a lesson now for over a month due to Christmas and being broke etc. I will book a lesson next week and see if she thinks.

He didn't really come with 'issues' as such. Old owner was scared to ride him and wasn't comfortable with him on the ground either. She loaned him to an equestrian college but he got expelled after a few months as student's couldn't cope with him.

He was very green in the school for a 12 yo as I think he'd mostly just hacked his whole life.

When I got him he was a very insecure, worried horse. Both ridden and on the ground. However, within 6 weeks with me he was a different horse (I hate saying thata s I sound like a right arrogant plonk I know) but he really was, farrier came to shoe him and said he'd shod him for 6 years and the time he first shod him for me was the best orange one had behaved in 6 years that he'd shod him.

And after a while I realised that he was actually as safe as houses to ride!! He really is as genuine as they come. He just used to be abit spooky and panick if someone got a bit unbalanced etc. However now he's chilled out, he's absolutely fine.

His schooling has come on loads, he never used to be hacked on his own but really when I hack him it's mainly on his own. He was a bit spooky at first but now strides past anything (including Tigers prowling fence line's when I used to hack him past the local wildlife park and I'm not joking!!)

He really is a different horse to when I got him nearly a year ago.No offence to his last owner as she is lovely but he just needed a handler/owner/rider that wasn't nervous around him/on him as he really does get his confidence from his handler/rider.

He has even taught a couple of almost complete novicey friends of mine how to ride since I've had him, was an absolute star. Plodded along, didn't panic if they got a bit unbalanced etc. I only did all this when i'd had him about 4-5 months and realised what a complete little angel he was.

So a project yes, issues? Not really, just a horse that had no confidence in anyone or anything and being sent to a equestrian college where he had loads of complete novice riders/handlers riding/handling him everyday just made the poor boy even more insecure and nervous.
 
No one has challenged your honesty or accused you of wanting to sell a horse without full disclosure.

My point was only that, given you have said repeatedly that money is a significant part if the equation, a conservative approach - my preferred course - is perhaps not the most sensible. To be blunt, if you won't be able to sell, better to know. If there is a problem that can be sorted, sort it. If there is no problem, you can crack on with a clear conscience.

All that said, I think you're getting ahead of yourself. Get the horse back on his program, get your instructor's opinion, and go from there.
 
The thing about KS is, if you xray x number of horses, there will be some showiung varying degrees, with delicia, yes she has KS, but its the old injury to her SI that causes the issue as under saddle she shortens her back and then the KS comes into play.

I have found she is relatively sound on the ground (still has better days then some but early days yet), but undersaddle she really is unridable.

Unfortunately for me, it looks like the tildren, shockwave and steroids havnt helped. BUT her issues are trauma related.

If your horse is displaying the symptoms you are, he isnt worth much anyway without a diagnois. Unfortunately a forum cannot diagnose the horse as we cannot see it, you need a vet really. Only a vet can give you an informed point of view to the severity of any issues. But as i have said before, KS it may not be, it sjust there are a lot of KS cases being spoken of lately, and so its on the tip of everyone's tongue/
 
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