Tack Fail. Photo. Who is at fault? Opinions ...

Norfolk Pie said:
Asa grown up, I'd be a bit embarrassed to have someone checking my girth, moving my leg forward and tightening it up a hole or two just before I went in the ring. :D
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You're clearly not a professional rider if you think this is how it works, nor are you aware of what goes on in the professional show jumping world over here apparently. Perhaps professional show jumping is different in the UK but over here the groom in question will probably never work as a groom again I'm afraid.
 
Both. The groom should prepare as best as possible, however ultimately the rider is presumably riding for an owner (in most situations where people employ grooms!) so they really should check. How long does it take to check your girth before you go in?
 
Surely they would have done warm up jumps in which case the rider and groom should check the girth to make sure it can't go up a hole or two before going in to the ring?
 
Stencilface said:
Both. The groom should prepare as best as possible, however ultimately the rider is presumably riding for an owner (in most situations where people employ grooms!) so they really should check. How long does it take to check your girth before you go in?
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this the groom should have done the job properly but no one should rely on a third person for their own safety no matter how much they pay them
incidentally it is the pilot of any plane that agrees it is ready to take off so is responsible for safety not the lackies fueling the plane
 
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Spit That Out said:
Surely they would have done warm up jumps in which case the rider and groom should check the girth to make sure it can't go up a hole or two before going in to the ring?
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Yes the horse would have been warmed up over a few practice jumps. What I suspect has happened is the girth was loosened after the horse had been warmed up and was being walked around; then just before the rider came to mount, the girth would have been tightened back up again, but with the horse walking around with a loose girth the saddle most likely slipped back thus when the girth was tightened again the saddle was in the wrong position. At that point it really doesn't matter how tight they do the girth, it was always going to be prone to slipping backwards. And if you look at the shape of this horse, it's very greyhound like and where the sweat marks are show that the tack was put on incorrectly in the first place.
 
I would check before getting on, groom or not. Take responsibility for yourself!

ETS this is why I use a breastgirth ;) My saddle doesn't slip, it's just in case.
 
Spring Feather said:
You're clearly not a professional rider if you think this is how it works
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Mildly presumptuous.
I wouldn't count myself as a professional competitive rider, but mildly intrigued as to what constitutes the type of professional you're thinking of? Obviously earning a living from horses and employing a groom or 12, but is there a certain standard where they absolved of any responsibility? 1.40 SJ class? 3* eventing?

Of course if the groom has prepared the horse, or reset the saddle just before the rider goes in, there would understandably be words (though a lot of people check their girth just before going in the ring) but I was imagining the situation to be the rider has warmed the horse up, ridden it to the ring and gone in....
 
I have a feeling that if the horse was standing square, the girth mark would be pretty much where you'd expect it - it's just a snapshot of that particular moment when everything stretched.

Unfortunately I think the groom would be blamed, but I think as a rider you need to take responsibility. I've seen the whittakers et al check their girths as they go into the arena, equally I have seen lower level 'all the gear no idea' riders act as if this is beneath them

If the rider didn't do up their hat and it came off in a fall, would the groom get the blame? You could argue the girth is a safety item, and as such the buck stops with the person at the top - the rider.
 
Who says they have a groom anyway? Maybe their 'groom' is their partner/parent. Professional or not, of all the pros and none pros I have seen on the showjumping circuit, one of the last things they do going in to the ring is check their girth. It's common sense isn't it?

Not sure the photo looks real anyway.
 
Persephone said:
I would check before getting on, groom or not. Take responsibility for yourself!

ETS this is why I use a breastgirth ;) My saddle doesn't slip, it's just in case.
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I used to use an over-girth for hunting, XC etc. and will use it again when I get to do anything with the Poneh that warrants it. It seems to be rarely used now. Just because something doesn't normally fail, doesn't mean you can't take precautions :o
 
Spring Feather said:
If a mechanic replaced the tires on your car but didn't tighten the wheel nuts and you ended up having an accident because the wheel fell off, whose fault is it? A groom is paid to have that horse ready for the immediate mounting of the rider. That is their job. This groom failed in their duty of responsibility to the rider IMO, and I sure as heck would fire them.
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The car may well be a different matter, but in the equine case, if a pro is getting on & its been prepped then its down to the groom, so me too on firing said groom!

However, its the riders life on the line, they need to check tack & horse for their own safety.
I always do this after a groom put me up many years ago & I found the off side rein billet was undone - thank goodness I checked before heading off for the workers class! :eek:
Likewise I never get on a motorbike without doing a basic safety check - its my life on the line there too :o - more so
 
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Hmm- for such an epic fail, (assuming its real ) even from a personal viewpoint as a former professional groom, I'm going for 'groom'.

However- you have to allow for the number of times a rider will disappear off when you know the girth needs to be tightened (for those of us who don't like yanking the girth as tight as possible immedately, horses that breathe out etc)

The same saddle used in more than one horse despite a rubbish fit, not using a breastplate (and I worked for an eventer competing at 4* who never did, and I could see how the saddle slipped despite the girth being as tight as possible)

Stressy riders who won't let you do a last minute tack check, stressy horses who you can't actually get near until they've finished

Not really excuses, more challenges to overcome!
 
ladyt25 said:
Who says they have a groom anyway? Maybe their 'groom' is their partner/parent. Professional or not, of all the pros and none pros I have seen on the showjumping circuit, one of the last things they do going in to the ring is check their girth. It's common sense isn't it?

Not sure the photo looks real anyway.
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I was actually wondering about the "professional with a groom" assumption.
Have a proper look at the pic -the fences are not really in a "professional only" league in terms of height? :)
 
Norfolk Pie said:
Mildly presumptuous.
I wouldn't count myself as a professional competitive rider, but mildly intrigued as to what constitutes the type of professional you're thinking of? Obviously earning a living from horses and employing a groom or 12, but is there a certain standard where they absolved of any responsibility? 1.40 SJ class? 3* eventing?

Of course if the groom has prepared the horse, or reset the saddle just before the rider goes in, there would understandably be words (though a lot of people check their girth just before going in the ring) but I was imagining the situation to be the rider has warmed the horse up, ridden it to the ring and gone in....
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I don't think so. From what you said it came across very clearly that you are not a professional show jumper over here in North America. It's not usual for the rider to warm up the horse, although it maybe happens at lower level events. Usually the rider only gets on the horse at the ring gate a few moments before entering the show jumping ring and it is usual for the groom to have that horse ready for the rider; just as it would be for Formula 1 cars to be ready to go for the professional race driver.
 
A few things in the photo don't add up to me. You can see the cantle and seat of the saddle, but where is the knee roll and saddle flap on this side? Look at the end of the blue & white pole on the back rail, it seems to both end at the correct place and sticking further out too. What's the white thing half way up the mountain side What's the grey background behind the part of the tent/marquee that is underneath the rider?

If I was a professional and my groom had warmed my horse up and handed straight over to me, I wouldn't be impressed with them. If I had got on a horse who had been being walked around a bit in-hand, well, that's my responsibility to check girth.
 
Spring Feather said:
I don't think so. From what you said it came across very clearly that you are not a professional show jumper over here in North America. It's not usual for the rider to warm up the horse, although it maybe happens at lower level events. Usually the rider only gets on the horse at the ring gate a few moments before entering the show jumping ring and it is usual for the groom to have that horse ready for the rider; just as it would be for Formula 1 cars to be ready to go for the professional race driver.
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Not sure I necessarily agree with this entirely as I have personally watched our top level showjumpers at varying level of competitions at least do the last bit of the warm up on their horses - ie a bit of a canter on both reins and a few pops over the fences before going in the arena. Maybe in the UK (not being quite the same in America when it comes to automatically suing people for any little thing), the riders (and yes EVEN those top ones!) take some responsibility for their own safety when it comes to riding and competing their horses. Yes I am sure there are some arrogant ones who would blame everyone else other than themselves but then I doubt they are, in the main,the TRUE professionals.
 
I think it depends who warmed the horse up. If the groom did all of it, & literally handed the horse over ready to jump a round, then I'd say grooms fault. I suspect it happened as spring feather said, girth tightened after the saddle had already slipped. I do think that a rider should have the wit to check their own girth. But, I've worked on yards where clients wouldn't think or expect to do that, so it became my, or whoever else's responsibility.
 
Natch said:
If I was a professional and my groom had warmed my horse up and handed straight over to me, I wouldn't be impressed with them. If I had got on a horse who had been being walked around a bit in-hand, well, that's my responsibility to check girth.
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^^^this^^^

It's common sense for any rider to check girths after you get on regardless of the level your riding at, it doesn't take 2 seconds to check and I can't believe (unless your horse is in right after another horse in your class) that riders don't have 2 seconds to stick their hand under their leg to see how lose or tight it is.

Most riders regardless of the level they jump at will pop a jump before going in the ring, a groom might warm up a horse but all the shows I've been too the rider still has to get a feel for the horse.

The groom should have a good finger wagging/talking too but if any rider is so far up their own butt they can't check a girth then I wouldn't want I work or them anyway!
 
ladyt25 said:
Not sure I necessarily agree with this entirely as I have personally watched our top level showjumpers at varying level of competitions at least do the last bit of the warm up on their horses - ie a bit of a canter on both reins and a few pops over the fences before going in the arena. Maybe in the UK (not being quite the same in America when it comes to automatically suing people for any little thing), the riders (and yes EVEN those top ones!) take some responsibility for their own safety when it comes to riding and competing their horses. Yes I am sure there are some arrogant ones who would blame everyone else other than themselves but then I doubt they are, in the main,the TRUE professionals.
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Sorry, I haven't been answering it as to a 'sue someone' type response. I'm just saying what is normal for what goes on here in the show jumping world in North America. This picture is from North America so obviously I'm not comparing it to what goes on in the UK. The question was about the comment made that the groom would get a rollicking, and my response is yes the groom will get more than a rollicking, they have most likely already been fired. Nothing to do with what goes on in England, nor to do with anyone being sued. Grooms here are paid to do all these checks and have the horse ring-ready. If they don't then they'd be fired or severely reprimanded. If, from your experience of the North American show circuit is different, I'd be interested to hear what your experience of it is :)
 
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I've worked for two pro riders who represented their respective countries - eventing, rather than showjumping. I was expected to have the horses ready to go, but both riders double-checked their own tack, especially before going x-country. I still would've got my derriere kicked if something had gone wrong - but that's pretty normal in a high pressure environment - the riders know its their responsibility to do final flight checks.

I check my girth as a matter of course - before I get on, again when I'm on, and after 5 minutes work. Call me OCD, but I always have to take it up a hole or two on the last check
 
Spring Feather, your type of attitude is the exact reason why i am incredibly picky about who i, as a professional groom, will work for. It is ALWAYS the riders responsibility to check their tack when they ride. I has been that way for all the people i have worked for and i would never go near a rider that told me it was my fault that they had not tightened their girth before going into the ring. The rider is also responsible for what tack the horse is wearing (why no breastplate?) not the groom.

If the tack had broken due to a fault not being picked up by the groom when cleaning etc then that is a different matter entirely.
 
Allover said:
Spring Feather, your type of attitude is the exact reason why i am incredibly picky about who i, as a professional groom, will work for. It is ALWAYS the riders responsibility to check their tack when they ride. I has been that way for all the people i have worked for and i would never go near a rider that told me it was my fault that they had not tightened their girth before going into the ring. The rider is also responsible for what tack the horse is wearing (why no breastplate?) not the groom.

If the tack had broken due to a fault not being picked up by the groom when cleaning etc then that is a different matter entirely.
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Lol! It's not my attitude, I don't have anything to do with show jumping over here. In North America, grooms are highly respected and are expected to do their job competently. Part of that job is making sure the horse is ready to go. Choosing which tack the horse wears is not normally the grooms or the riders responsibility; that is usually between the owner and the trainer to figure out.

It's clear there is a huge difference in what is expected of grooms over here compared to what is expected in the UK.
 
Spring Feather said:
Sorry, I haven't been answering it as to a 'sue someone' type response. I'm just saying what is normal for what goes on here in the show jumping world in North America. This picture is from North America so obviously I'm not comparing it to what goes on in the UK. The question was about the comment made that the groom would get a rollicking, and my response is yes the groom will get more than a rollicking, they have most likely already been fired. Nothing to do with what goes on in England, nor to do with anyone being sued. Grooms here are paid to do all these checks and have the horse ring-ready. If they don't then they'd be fired or severely reprimanded. If, from your experience of the North American show circuit is different, I'd be interested to hear what your experience of it is :)
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Well as the majority of us answering are probably based in the the UK or familiar with a similar set-up, we can only comment on how it is done here ;)

In the UK, grooms are still expected to have a horse ready for the rider, but doesn't excuse the rider not doing the simplest check as they walk into the arena.

When I was younger I thought it was cool that top-level riders could do up a girth on a jogging horse without looking down or falling off.

Hell, I admire people being about to do up a girth without auditioning for the Russian Cossacks every time the girth needs doing up while on board (long girth straps, short girth, fat pony) :D
 
Spring Feather - just to clarify, I never suggested I had 'experience' of the showjumping circuit in America, North or otherwise. My comments were purely regarding my experience of what I see top level showjumpers do in the UK when they are competing and that, in general (for now anyway) the differences between how society works in America - where the natural thing seems to be to blame someone else for your own misgivings - to how it is in the UK. Of course a groom (like anyone in a job) is expected to do what they are paid to do but it doesn't mean that their employer should themselves be exempt from any responsibility.
 
I always thought it was the riders job to check a girth is tightened sufficiently except if you are a complete beginner in which case it would be the instructors job. It's a long time since I needed someone to do that for me!

I cannot imagine it any other way. As to the mechanics example - well I expect him to make sure the engine is working but I don't expect him to do up my seatbelt.
 
Spring Feather said:
Lol! It's not my attitude, I don't have anything to do with show jumping over here. In North America, grooms are highly respected and are expected to do their job competently. Part of that job is making sure the horse is ready to go. Choosing which tack the horse wears is not normally the grooms or the riders responsibility; that is usually between the owner and the trainer to figure out.

It's clear there is a huge difference in what is expected of grooms over here compared to what is expected in the UK.
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Wow - it's clearly very different. Back in the days when I was grooming, I would class myself as a highly competent international competition groom, but once the rider took the reins from me, it was up to him to carry out the basic checks that would ensure his safety. If the girth needed to go up a notch - it would not have been considered that I had not done my job properly, just that the horse had breathed out once the girth was done up. In fact, Id be more likely to get yelled at for a horse being made to stand around with a tight girth. If a bandage wasn't sewn on properly, or the studs weren't in tightly - then I would have been at fault.

I cant think of any riders who would compete at a high level without having a say in what tack the horse was wearing either! Its their neck on the line if the saddle slips, or the brakes fail after all...
 
Spring Feather said:
Lol! It's not my attitude, I don't have anything to do with show jumping over here. In North America, grooms are highly respected and are expected to do their job competently. Part of that job is making sure the horse is ready to go. Choosing which tack the horse wears is not normally the grooms or the riders responsibility; that is usually between the owner and the trainer to figure out.

It's clear there is a huge difference in what is expected of grooms over here compared to what is expected in the UK.
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You posted earlier that you would fire your groom if this happened to you. That, IMHO, is a plain ignorant attitude to have but unfotunately quite common in the horse world (wherever you may be).
 
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