tack...why is it that.....?

diggerbez

diggerbez

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having read a lot of posts on here about various bits of tack...how come some people think that you can only be riding properly if you have a simple snaffle and a cavesson? and that if you have anything in addition to this you must be crap/trying to force horse's head in etc etc?

don't get me wrong, it would be great if every horse would go in a nice soft snaffle and a simple cavesson, but really they don't do they....what is wrong with using tack or training aids etc if it helps to get the horse working correctly (and often safely)? so yes, i have used draw reins on spooky types, flashes on horses who cross their jaw, pelhams on horses you can't stop for love nor money, standing martingales when you need control and want to keep your face in one piece etc etc... i get so frustrated when people who do nothing but hack in walk criticise people for using extra equipment needed for their needs...i'm not saying there is anything wrong with hacking in walk but once you start moving faster/ jumping higher etc etc you maybe need a bit more precision control?
is it just me?????
 
No I agree. I think it certain circumstances and with certain horses you need a bit of help, to stay safe. With one of mine (exracer tb) he's lethal in any type of martingale but with my other I wouldn't get on him unless he had draw reins on!
 
I have used just about everything going when needed, but I don't like to see gadgets used un-necessarily, e.g. quiet kids' ponies strapped up to the eyeballs just because their young riders think it looks cool.
 
Surely the tack that people use depends on what they are doing, what problems occur and how they are trained to deal with them? I tend not to pass judgement on anyone who decides that they need a flash noseband or a training aid of some sort (unless they ask me for an opinion). Personally, I don't have the need to use them because I deal with things like mouths opening or horses that are difficult to stop differently. Each to their own however, use what you understand and know how to implement.
It's a big assumption to think that people who don't use things like martingales, pelhams etc etc only "hack in walk", and of course it's not true. However, it's a reflection of your experience in life. You haven't experienced anything different, which is fine. It's possible to have "precision control" with simple tack, but you don't know that unless you have that experience yourself and experience of people who can ride like that. Not a problem as far as I'm concerned.
I think posts like this are a bit pointless to be honest, they seem to seek confrontation where there is none. Is it a reaction to threads like the one I posted recently about "unconventional tack"? I found that one interesting because people shared their personal experiences, which are just a little bit different the experiences of many riders. However, I didn't see any:
"people who do nothing but hack in walk criticise people for using extra equipment needed for their needs"
and I don't see that a lot here to be fair.
I think we all need to accept that there are many ways to be an effective horseperson, more than one way to have "precision and control". No point being defensive, no point criticising, it's just the way it is.
Of course it doesn't take long to show that it's possible to move faster and have control without the need for tack that gives more precision control.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ-zAoovg-c
I picked this video because, when I was in Australia, I saw this same horse and rider team give a demo in Gawler. In the ridden section he showed relaxed rein riding, western pleasure style and "cowboy dressage" without changing the snaffle bit and western bridle with no noseband. Dressage divas watching were amazed and thrilled.
All I'm saying is that it's possible there are a lot more possibilities in horsemanship than those that our early trainers introduce us to. That has certainly been my experience.
 
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I used the word experience a lot in that post didn't I? That is because we are all the product of what we experience in our horsemanship, that is what gives us our personal beliefs about what is possible. That is what can expand or limit our horsemanship. If it works and you're happy then just get on with it, don't worry about what other people think or do.
 
As my Instructor said the other day..

It may go in a snaffle but you have an awful time Holding the horse and by the end it's mouth is sore
Or you put it in something stronger where you can a featherlight contact and have the horse forward in an outline and the horse is comfortable
 
Kirsty+Java said:
As my Instructor said the other day..

It may go in a snaffle but you have an awful time Holding the horse and by the end it's mouth is sore
Or you put it in something stronger where you can a featherlight contact and have the horse forward in an outline and the horse is comfortable
Click to expand...

Yeah, but Kirsty, with respect to your instructor, that's rubbish. Just because a horse is in a snaffle, that doesn't necessarily mean that the horse is being held by it's mouth does it? It is possible to have a featherlight contact in any bit, or bitless for that matter. It's a matter of preparation, training and consistency, things that some people aren't prepared to spend time on. This is what I mean by limited by experience, it reads as if your instructor's views are limited by his/her experience. Which is fine if that is what they teach and what people want to learn from them. I'm a bit horrified to be honest that anyone teaching could really think that.
 
Many horses do not suit certain bits... I'm sure there are as many bits as there are horses!! (Only a little exaggeration :D). Mouth conformation, sensitivities etc etc... A tb that goes well in a plain snaffle will not mean a cob on the same yard will too. It might even prefer bitless. Who knows?

I agree that one should not struggle away in a snaffle, sawing at it's mouth and jabbing it's palate to make it do what others do with seeming ease... it's clearly uncomfortable so try a lozenge or a roller... or just put in a ported kimblewick.

Because try as you might and call in the expensive trainers... if it doesn't suit a plain snaffle you can't force it no matter how much it is schooled because it is in pain.

Lovely video there tinypony but the majority here live mostly in rural england and have day jobs (usually not associated with being a cowboy) so as much as many dream to gallop about naturally in full control... like we did as children... time constraints, H&S Laws and lack of wide open spaces put paid to the idea.
 
Oh, I agree with you tallyho in all of that. I wasn't advocating hurtling round bareback and bridleless, I was just pointing out that it isn't necessary to somehow "increase" the level of your tack when you start to move fast.
I also agree with you on bits. I use them. Luckily all three of my horses wear the same size. One rides in a jointed sweet iron snaffle, which is quite thin. She has a thick tongue and it sits comfortably in her mouth, but I'm very aware of the potential severity. Then we have our french link Rockin' S snaffle, and our Happy Mouth straight bar nathe bit. What horrified me was that an instructor would make a statement that assumes that if someone is riding in a snaffle they will be having an awful time, hanging on, and making the horse's mouth sore. That would be the result of poor riding and bad training to me.
But there, what do I know?
a020.gif
 
I have no issue with thoughtfully used tack, but would prefer to look at the underlying reason for needing supplementry tack first. I quite agree with the comment about misuse of a snaffle, and not every horse goes well and safely for every disicpline without. Rider safety is paramount.
However, this is why I like bringing on babies, I don't inherit other people's problems. Introduced my 4 year old ISH X TB to jumping on Friday, took her to an RC training day on Monday where she behaved beautifully at her first ridden 'comp'. Came 4th in the dressage and jumped a mini course clear in a plain cavession, snaffle and no martingale. She loved it, eyes shining and ears forward, unfettered and forward going, she was a fun girl.
 
I do think that people reach for the mechanical remedy to a whole host of problems, and personally prefer to look for the reason and tackle things differently. However, if someone knows and understands their tack/gadget/training aid, and they aren't doing the horse any harm, then I don't have much of a view on what they are doing. You have to work with the tools that you have. (Mental and physical).
 
I'm pretty sure it was Mark Todd who went round Badminton xc and sjing in a snaffle along with a fair few other riders I don't remember. I don't think he just hacks around in walk and I am certain he needs precision and control.
 
Some people do resort to gadjets over training but it's up to them I guess. That's why I prefer to buy youngsters and train then up.
Saying that my horse wears a martingale when hacking and jumping, it's as Tim Stockdale said 'a seatbelt' it doesn't work unless you need it to ;). My horse gets 70% in dr tests in a snaffle bridle so hes well enough trained for me. If anyone wants to hack him without a martingale when he's fresh and decides to leap
and spin that's up to them but I'll keep it on thanks!
My TB's and others I've had have never needed anything other then a snaffle but my last horse welsh x was always ridden in kimblewick jumping and hunting, it was the difference between making his mouth bleed in a snaffle or having touch control!
At the end of the day horses are individual, some don't always come to us with perfect training in place. You also don't know how a horse reacts in extreme environments and as we are much weaker it may be safer in the interim to use something to help us with control. Any bit, noseband can be dangerous in the wrong hands, even a snaffle can be used as an instrument of torture. Likewise a more 'advanced' piece of kit e.g spurs can be used with intelligence and the lightest of aids by the best of riders.
Some people think their horses are light as a feather and perfectly trained when in fact they are hiding behind the bit and trailing their legs, I see a lot of western riders who's horses are terribly on the forehand!
I do think there is a holier then thou attitude coming through where members of this forum are trying to be 'clever' by gently implying that anyone who uses anything other then fresh air to ride their horses should be pityed. How wonderful to be so narrow minded, how easy and simple life must be!
 
I agree with Tallyho! I'd love to be able to cavort round everything wearing no tack - but the hours of background training you'd have to put into that! I'd love to be a hippy, living life outdoors in a shack, picking daisies and feeling the wind in my hair with no job other than to hoon round training my horse.
But I'm not, I have to work 50+ hours a week to keep my home running. So I'll stick to enjoying and not hurting my horse thanks :)

In answer to the OP, I couldnt care less what a horse wears, so long as it doesn't hurt. It's all un-natural if you break it down, as is us on their backs - so when you start stripping off, you have to strip it ALL OFF. Otherwise you sound like a bit of a hypocrite IMHO :D

Great video though!
 
Kitsune, I think you've missed the point of me posting that video. I wasn't saying that everyone should cavort about with no tack. I was just pointing out that you don't need to "up" your tack just because you're going faster than a walk.

I agree with you, as long as it doesn't hurt the horse I'm fine with it.

Although, sometimes, you wonder if some people are hurting their horses don't you?

Oh, I'm not getting into the "natural" thing. The bloke in the video doesn't think he's "natural", he rides in bits, bosals, rope halters, the lot.
 
I think we all realise that TP, I don't think this is going to be the first time any of us here have seen someone ride without tack faster than a walk....I think we all are aware it can be done...:confused:
 
tinypony/tobysg i think you misunderstand me. i am FULLY aware that you can ride at the highest level in a simple bridle (and i think its great when you see it!). i ride my own horse in a new schule french link (sp?) and cavesson and have just added a flash/waterford for safety reasons XC....my comment about people in walk criticising is that it seems to me, from my own experience, that the people who question the use of gadgets/stronger bits etc etc often are the people who never ask their horses a difficult question and so are fine in simple snaffle as they have never needed to slow down before a tricky combination XC or whatever- does that make sense?

my old TB had to be hacked in draw reins on occasions when he was fresh otherwise he would leap around, nut you in the face and bin you before galloping off up the road. the draw reins stopped this whole cycle and we could both enjoy a safe hack. the amount of comments i got from people ambling about on lovely safe looking horses- i would MUCH prefer to ride one of their horses out on a hack but i wasn't, what would they prefer me to do, never hack out???

i also think the trainer comment re. sawing away in a snaffle- i don't think it was a generic comment about everyone who rides in a snaffle is heavy handed- i think it was something K&J experienced in her lesson. thats what i read and i thoroughly agree. its why my horse now wears a waterford for XC. i can stop in a snaffle, but i have to pull several times- in a waterford i can ask once politely. not only does this mean that his mouth is less liekly to get sore but i can also ride XC without fear of coming in to a tricky fence with too much pace....
its interesting tho- you think this post is pointless tinypony and yet seem very interested in it???? ;)
 
We're getting confuzzled kitsune. Diggerbenz said this:

"i get so frustrated when people who do nothing but hack in walk criticise people for using extra equipment needed for their needs...i'm not saying there is anything wrong with hacking in walk but once you start moving faster/ jumping higher etc etc you maybe need a bit more precision control? "

So I posted the video. :-))
 
Tinypony said:
Oh, I agree with you tallyho in all of that. I wasn't advocating hurtling round bareback and bridleless, I was just pointing out that it isn't necessary to somehow "increase" the level of your tack when you start to move fast.
I also agree with you on bits. I use them. Luckily all three of my horses wear the same size. One rides in a jointed sweet iron snaffle, which is quite thin. She has a thick tongue and it sits comfortably in her mouth, but I'm very aware of the potential severity. Then we have our french link Rockin' S snaffle, and our Happy Mouth straight bar nathe bit. What horrified me was that an instructor would make a statement that assumes that if someone is riding in a snaffle they will be having an awful time, hanging on, and making the horse's mouth sore. That would be the result of poor riding and bad training to me.
But there, what do I know?
a020.gif
Click to expand...

Quite - no i don't think faster = more equipment either.

I interpreted the "instructors" words as being slightly patronising, but had some sense in it... I've heard that many times in many guises. Sometimes eluding towards the rider, others to the ridden :D

In both cases at least the former would have some 'control' and the latter, less pain.
 
Yep, I do think it's pointless because it implies conflict where there isn't really any. However, I'm working at home and keep having to stop to print off reams of boring paperwork, so this is a diversion that I can amiably take part in.
Having said that... as the last pages spill out of the Big Brother on the end of my desk... I can now shut down the laptop and go off for a couple of hours to ride. So have fun people.
:-)
 
Tinypony said:
"i get so frustrated when people who do nothing but hack in walk criticise people for using extra equipment needed for their needs...i'm not saying there is anything wrong with hacking in walk but once you start moving faster/ jumping higher etc etc you maybe need a bit more precision control? "
Click to expand...

She said "maybe" so that means you might or might not. Your video supports the might not theory - but some people still will. So I'm not sure if your video was agreeing or not with OP?

Yessss, very confuzzled!
 
firewell said:
Some people do resort to gadjets over training but it's up to them I guess. That's why I prefer to buy youngsters and train then up.
Saying that my horse wears a martingale when hacking and jumping, it's as Tim Stockdale said 'a seatbelt' it doesn't work unless you need it to ;). My horse gets 70% in dr tests in a snaffle bridle so hes well enough trained for me. If anyone wants to hack him without a martingale when he's fresh and decides to leap
and spin that's up to them but I'll keep it on thanks!
My TB's and others I've had have never needed anything other then a snaffle but my last horse welsh x was always ridden in kimblewick jumping and hunting, it was the difference between making his mouth bleed in a snaffle or having touch control!
At the end of the day horses are individual, some don't always come to us with perfect training in place. You also don't know how a horse reacts in extreme environments and as we are much weaker it may be safer in the interim to use something to help us with control. Any bit, noseband can be dangerous in the wrong hands, even a snaffle can be used as an instrument of torture. Likewise a more 'advanced' piece of kit e.g spurs can be used with intelligence and the lightest of aids by the best of riders.
Some people think their horses are light as a feather and perfectly trained when in fact they are hiding behind the bit and trailing their legs, I see a lot of western riders who's horses are terribly on the forehand!
I do think there is a holier then thou attitude coming through where members of this forum are trying to be 'clever' by gently implying that anyone who uses anything other then fresh air to ride their horses should be pityed. How wonderful to be so narrow minded, how easy and simple life must be!
Click to expand...

agree with everything you've said FW! :)
 
Kitsune said:
She said "maybe" so that means you might or might not. Your video supports the might not theory - but some people still will. So I'm not sure if your video was agreeing or not with OP?

Yessss, very confuzzled!
Click to expand...

exactly Kitty- the maybe was quite important. in an ideal world riding robot horses you wouldn't but i think if you watch the top top riders in SJ/eventing etc most of them don't have a simple snaffle/cavesson for a reason...and i doubt that its for fashion reasons :rolleyes:
 
I Have no problems with changing bits if needed but as a dressage girl my option is a snaffle and thats about it. I have ridden a dressage horse in a stronger bit because it was a fool but i didnt feel right, he wasnt through he was tucking his head in to look pretty but avoiding contact, in the snaffle though i felt i could push him to where i wanted him.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesnt correct controll come from your seat??
If your sawing on the bit then your riding in a hand dominated way which is not correct.
bits are to establish a contact an outline is from your seat riding forward into that contact from behind.
I was once told 'if you cant stop in a snaffle your going to be galloping around this field a long time' i can stop in a snaffle, but i learned how to use my seat that day. (took a while though lol!)

tbh though i think if that horse needs a stronger one then thats fine but i dont think people should bitch about eachothers tack. ffs who cares each to their own.
IMO people who comment on others in a negative way with no constructive part are just trying to feel better.
if your a happy hacker use whatever bit you want you dont have a rule book to keep to :)
 
Dandycandy said:
I Have no problems with changing bits if needed but as a dressage girl my option is a snaffle and thats about it. I have ridden a dressage horse in a stronger bit because it was a fool but i didnt feel right, he wasnt through he was tucking his head in to look pretty but avoiding contact, in the snaffle though i felt i could push him to where i wanted him.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesnt correct controll come from your seat??
If your sawing on the bit then your riding in a hand dominated way which is not correct.
bits are to establish a contact an outline is from your seat riding forward into that contact from behind.
I was once told 'if you cant stop in a snaffle your going to be galloping around this field a long time' i can stop in a snaffle, but i learned how to use my seat that day. (took a while though lol!)

tbh though i think if that horse needs a stronger one then thats fine but i dont think people should bitch about eachothers tack. ffs who cares each to their own.
IMO people who comment on others in a negative way with no constructive part are just trying to feel better.
if your a happy hacker use whatever bit you want you dont have a rule book to keep to :)
Click to expand...

^^Agree^^

I can't help thinking that many folk confuse horse riding with bike riding. The reins don't steer, the bit isnt a brake, and your legs arn't kicking the throttle. We are supposted to be asking the horse, not mechanically working the parts.

Your seat is not for sitting on, lol.
 
AndySpooner said:
^^Agree^^

I can't help thinking that many folk confuse horse riding with bike riding. The reins don't steer, the bit isnt a brake, and your legs arn't kicking the throttle. We are supposted to be asking the horse, not mechanically working the parts.

Your seat is not for sitting on, lol.
Click to expand...

lmao

Whaaattt?? Really?? I'm done for then... just ordered my go-faster stripes from petrolhedz direct... thought my nellie would look really cool with cobalt blue running from his ears to his tail.
 
Tinypony said:
Yeah, but Kirsty, with respect to your instructor, that's rubbish. Just because a horse is in a snaffle, that doesn't necessarily mean that the horse is being held by it's mouth does it? It is possible to have a featherlight contact in any bit, or bitless for that matter. It's a matter of preparation, training and consistency, things that some people aren't prepared to spend time on. This is what I mean by limited by experience, it reads as if your instructor's views are limited by his/her experience. Which is fine if that is what they teach and what people want to learn from them. I'm a bit horrified to be honest that anyone teaching could really think that.
Click to expand...

wooooooooooooops i didnt mean that !! And please dont say anything bad against my instructor i didnt re read what i had read, my instructor is extremely experienced and an extremely good showing judge who judges RIHS qualifiers

she meant you may have a horse that can be ridden in a snaffle but may go better in a gag for example
my horse java,

he came in a loose ring french link snaffle and could be ridden in it fine but he goes more softly and into the contact better in a gag

by no means did she mean "all horses" she meant some getting at my horse

please dont judge before you know the whole story and if you were unsure what i meant ask.....
 
I agree that snaffle bits aren't the be all and end all, in fact they can be downright uncomfortable for some horses.

I was in a tack shop the other day where a parent was buying a bit for her daughters pony, the only question she asked was what bit did she like the look of and what size would they need :rolleyes:

I think bitting correctly is a work of art - there are so many thicknesses of mouthpieces, getting the correct width, does the horse prefer bar pressure or pressure over the tongue, is tongue relief needed etc etc. So often a 'simple' snaffle is bunged on without even looking at the horse's mouth conformation.

Because a horse is more comfortable in what may essentially be a stronger bit then the rider can use lighter and more refined aids; much nicer for the horse than being pulled around in a 'mild' bit that won't encourage the rider to have soft hands. It doesn't always involve lots of schooling, although schooling should always be done regardless, a comfy horse is a comfy horse and that makes a difference to his way of going.
 
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