Tail docking info please

[Slightlyconfused]

Can you guys show me where it's illegal to tail dock please?

Someone I know wants a cocker pup next year and was planning on docking it's tail just because that's what they have always done. Hasn't had a dog for quite a few years.

I told them it's illegal unless the vet surgeon knows that the dog it's going to be worked and has evidence. They seem to think they can just say "Oh year dog is going to be a gun dog" and vet will lop tail off.

Any and all info will be appreciated.

 

[spacefaer]

http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/gundogs/tests-and-trials/tail-docking-key-facts-you-need-to-know-9672

http://www.cdb.org/awa/

These tell you everything you need to know - the easiest thing to do is buy a pup that has already been docked. The purchasers won't be able to do it as it has to be done within 5 days of birth.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Thank you.

 

[Copperpot]

Make sure you speak to your vet too. A few around here won't dock even legally, you need to make sure yours will.

 

[blackcob]

He'll need to buy a puppy that is already docked as it has to be done before five days of age. The breeder may struggle to find a vet to do it, of a practice of 20+ vets we've only got one who will dock, the BVA is certainly opposed to it.

Pup should come with a certificate and will need to be microchipped by 12 weeks.

The evidence needed is fairly lax, a gun licence or letter of recommendation from a gamekeeper or landowner is usually sufficient.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

In general, I think that there can be/are a difference in energy levels between Cockers bred to be good show dogs/pets, and Cockers bred for hunting. So I hope they don't stare themselves blind on tail lenght.

 

[Thistle]

Also tails are docked much longer than they used to be, usually at between 1/2 and 2/3 of original length.

A docked tail dog can be KC reg and can be shown, but can't be shown at a dog show where the public pay an entrance fee, thus effectively banning many true working bred dogs from Crufts.

I have seen some horrific spaniel tail injuries and am pleased that the breeder of my boy had the pups docked at 3 days. He has about half his tail, which is brown with a white tip, so attractively marked. He wags it all the time when working, considering his job is to work in thick cover it could get really trashed.

 

[Copperpot]

I had to call a fair few vets to get a litter of terriers done. Found one in the end. I had a letter from the local gamekeeper. Had them done at 3 days old.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Make sure you speak to your vet too. A few around here won't dock even legally, you need to make sure yours will.

I don't want them docked. It's someone I know who thinks that he can buy a pup and go get it docked. He doesn't work them he just thinks cocker look better with tail docked :/

Most working dog breeders I know won't sell to non working homes so he is going to struggle finding one.

 

[blackcob]

Oh dear, it really doesn't work like that! After five days of age it's amputation, not docking, and would only be done as a last resort for persistent tail injury. Completely illegal for cosmetic purposes (as it should be, it's barbaric)

 

[Alec Swan]

Also tails are docked much longer than they used to be, usually at between 1/2 and 2/3 of original length.

A docked tail dog can be KC reg and can be shown, but can't be shown at a dog show where the public pay an entrance fee, thus effectively banning many true working bred dogs from Crufts.

I have seen some horrific spaniel tail injuries and am pleased that the breeder of my boy had the pups docked at 3 days. He has about half his tail, which is brown with a white tip, so attractively marked. He wags it all the time when working, considering his job is to work in thick cover it could get really trashed.

In the '70s, I used to dock the tails of Springers leaving about 2/5ths of the tail. Today it's fashionable to leave 3/5ths. Whilst we would prefer to leave a white tip, the longer tails seem to prevent the dog from 'expressing' itself, in my view.

The KC Rulings? Lunacy and pandering to those who really do cuddle bunnies. Just why those who are precious should receive such treatment, is beyond me. It's my opinion that the KC are not fit for purpose, and in any shape or form.

I knew of a Great Dane which wagged its tail incessantly, admittedly it lived in a stable, and after four separate ops where the vet removed ever more of its tail, eventually it was pts, because it refused to heal. I'm NOT suggesting that GDs should be docked, far from it, but those dogs with a tail action which tends to be exaggerated, all so often spaniels, should be docked, properly and at birth.

Many of the 'other' breeds, Rotts, Dobermans and Boxers for instance, actually look better with a full tail, in my view. Docking such breeds is no more than vanity and it serves no useful purpose.

Alec.

 

[Clodagh]

I think dogs looks much better with docked tails, Boxers and rotties with great big curly whips over their backs look awful, IMO. Still, it isn't the dogs fault and I expect breeders will breed for better tails now. Mind you I like the look of cropped ears too, not that I would ever condone it or want to have it done but it does look impressive.
Spaniels in the field need docked tails, pet ones don't but I am sure the OP's friend could find a working cocker that has already been done.

 

[chillipup]

I think dogs looks much better with docked tails, Boxers and rotties with great big curly whips over their backs look awful, IMO. Still, it isn't the dogs fault and I expect breeders will breed for better tails now. Mind you I like the look of cropped ears too, not that I would ever condone it or want to have it done but it does look impressive.
Spaniels in the field need docked tails, pet ones don't but I am sure the OP's friend could find a working cocker that has already been done.

Just curious.....in what way do you think cropped ears look impressive?

 

[Clodagh]

Hard to explain, but when I lived in Australia I hung out with bikers and they had a couple of dobermann at the clubhouse with cropped ears. They looked good. I reiterate I am not a fan of the process, just the end result.

 

[littletrotter]

I have known several working spaniels with whole tails who never had any trouble their whole working career, not to mention Labs, who aren't docked anyway, so to me it's a cruel waste of time. Ears too, which i think looks horrible.

OTOH some people seem to genuinely love humans with faces full of bits of metal, or completely tattooed faces and bodies, and even the whites of the eyes tattooed! It takes all sorts.

 

[SusieT]

tail docking is not done because dogs have an expressive tail ...
it is unethical - much more ethical to dock any that require it (which will be the minority if dogs are bred with tails in mind) under anaesthetic with appropriate pain control (and maybe neuter them at the same time....)
Large breed dogs living in areas where they constantly bang their tails is a sign that the accomodation is too small not that the tail needs removed - although once injured they often do need removed.

 

[chillipup]

http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/gundogs/tests-and-trials/tail-docking-key-facts-you-need-to-know-9672

http://www.cdb.org/awa/

These tell you everything you need to know - the easiest thing to do is buy a pup that has already been docked. The purchasers won't be able to do it as it has to be done within 5 days of birth.

Oh dear, it really doesn't work like that! After five days of age it's amputation, not docking, and would only be done as a last resort for persistent tail injury. Completely illegal for cosmetic purposes (as it should be, it's barbaric)

Spacefaer put up two links in the first reply to OP. It explains everything - clearly.

blackbob, docking and amputation is one and the same thing. It is still amputation whether it is carried out by the vet on a pup 5 days or under, albeit without using any anesthetic or an older pup/dog, using anesthetic. 'Docking' is merely a colloquialism and perhaps just sounds better than 'amputation', to many.

 

[blackcob]

I'm aware, Chillipup, but I think it's useful to distinguish between legal docking of puppies and later elective procedures on adult dogs.

 

[{97702}]

I think dogs looks much better with docked tails, Boxers and rotties with great big curly whips over their backs look awful, IMO. Still, it isn't the dogs fault and I expect breeders will breed for better tails now. Mind you I like the look of cropped ears too, not that I would ever condone it or want to have it done but it does look impressive.
Spaniels in the field need docked tails, pet ones don't but I am sure the OP's friend could find a working cocker that has already been done.

Oddly enough I agree totally about docked tails - I loathe seeing dogs like boxers and rotties with long tails, they look just awful and having seen a litter of puppies being docked I know full well how much effect it has on them - but I hate the look of cropped ears!

 

[chillipup]

Oddly enough I agree totally about docked tails - I loathe seeing dogs like boxers and rotties with long tails, they look just awful and having seen a litter of puppies being docked I know full well how much effect it has on them - but I hate the look of cropped ears!

I think it's because we have been so used to seeing all these breeds with docked tails, for so many years that sadly, it became accepted as the norm, to some. Seeing these dogs now, with their tails intact, precisely how they should have always looked, is perhaps now difficult to accept. Thank heavens, the ridiculous decision to start amputating tails to be 'fashionable' and permitting such an unnecessary and unethical practice to take place, is in the main part, well behind us.

Let's not forget, the tail is an extension of the spine. It is there for many reasons. I for one think all dogs look great with their original length tails and find it lovely to see.

 

[littletrotter]

Oddly enough I agree totally about docked tails - I loathe seeing dogs like boxers and rotties with long tails, they look just awful and having seen a litter of puppies being docked I know full well how much effect it has on them - but I hate the look of cropped ears!

Well what effect does it have?

I had an interesting, if hair-raising, chat with an american woman once who had just had her baby circumcised. Her hospital did it without anaesthetic when the baby was 24 hours old. They strapped him to a sort of board, they velcro on, you can google to see how they look. The baby apparently screamed blue murder when they strapped him in but as soon as the started to tear the foreskin from the glans to fit the plastibell (it's a sort of clamp they use to remove the foreskin over a few days by cutting off the blood flow - like ringing lambs tails) she said he went completely silent and then appeared to fall asleep. He had definitely had no pain relief as she signed his consent form. In her view the procedure is not painful and afterwards he slept for hours longer and it was all great. She actually complained that when the plastibell fell off four days later he started screaming and wanting to feed all the time again.

In my view it is obviously immensely painful to tear the foreskin from the glans (in newborns it is joined like the nail is to the nailbed) and then apply a clamp which prevents bloodflow to it to kill the tissue. No adult man, or indeed speaking-age child, would volunteer for that procedure with no pain relief. I suspect the silence and sleep was a shock response which would be most likely to prevent further harm from a predator - a useful mechanism for an injured and helpless human newborn - screaming would only attract more attention. They have done some studies and the silent sleeping babies stress hormones are sky high - they are very very distressed and in severe pain even if they aren't showing it. As a result circumcision and especially without anaesthetic, is thankfully beginning to die out. So i'm afraid i look more to common sense than basic observation when it comes to that sort of thing.

 

[minesadouble]

I'm not sure I subscribe to the safety mechanism explanation, all 3 of my newborns screamed like demons when they had the heel prick!

 

[Clodagh]

Littletrotter, have you ever docked a litter? Or seen it done? It is awful, and most people who watched it would never watch or do it again. They don't just fall asleep, although they do settle again fairly soon when back with the bitch.

 

[littletrotter]

Littletrotter, have you ever docked a litter? Or seen it done? It is awful, and most people who watched it would never watch or do it again. They don't just fall asleep, although they do settle again fairly soon when back with the bitch.

No, that's why i asked. I personally think animals with bits chopped off look horrible and was thrilled when they banned it. My point was merely that however happy/unhappy a creature being injured might look it's better to think rationally about the injury than rely on observation.

 

[littletrotter]

I'm not sure I subscribe to the safety mechanism explanation, all 3 of my newborns screamed like demons when they had the heel prick!

So did mine. But a heel prick is a minor injury which summoning the caregiver would be the best response for. Circumcision is a mortal injury (even in modern hospitals there are babies who bleed to death or die of sepsis after it, though luckily very rarely), which would assume the caregiver was unavailable since all traditional pre-industrial human societies keep their infants with them at all times. Have you never read of babies buries in rubble during earthquakes, who survive by essentially shutting down and not even crying until a rescuer actually touches them?

 

[{97702}]

Well what effect does it have?

The puppies squeaked for a few minutes, then piled themselves into a little heap (obviously they were in a basket without mum around) and fell asleep. They were boxers

 

[{97702}]

Littletrotter, have you ever docked a litter? Or seen it done? It is awful, and most people who watched it would never watch or do it again. They don't just fall asleep, although they do settle again fairly soon when back with the bitch.

The litter I saw being done did just fall asleep - I think an awful lot depends on the skill of the individual doing the job, same as taking dew claws off baby puppies

 

[Alec Swan]

Littletrotter, have you ever docked a litter? Or seen it done? It is awful, and most people who watched it would never watch or do it again. They don't just fall asleep, although they do settle again fairly soon when back with the bitch.

Post docking, the puppies are in shock, but it's really no different from when their damn severs the umbilical chord. Most dogs, when they're distressed will turn to 'sleep'. Think about it; how many dogs when faced with long car journeys, fall asleep? Many, I'd suggest. Sleep shuts out all those influences which dogs don't enjoy.

Alec.

 

[Clodagh]

I have seen a litter of dobes done, years ago. I agree the trauma was over quickly but it was still horrible. I also think it is worse now they have to go to the vets and it takes much longer, at least when it was done at home they were chilled right up until, when they go to the vets the bitch gets stressed, IMO, which transfers worry to the pups. I know they soon get over it but it is still horrible.
And really, it must hurt like hell!

 

[SusieT]

cutting the umbilical cord is completely different and shows the level of ignorance in the pro-docking world...
shock is a bad thing - mammals who are in shock and sleeping are not healthy mammals.