Taking shoes off - what would you feed?

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chestnut cob

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Anyone who has read my recent posts will have noticed I'm currently thinking about having my horse's shoes taken off / going barefoot. I'm pretty much 100% decided that his back shoes will come off in Feb and I'll make a decision about the fronts after the summer.

He doesn't have the best feet in the world though my farrier has done a superb job in improving them over the last couple of years. I started feeding MagOx in April last year which has really helped - my farrier asked what "expensive supplements" I'd been feeding to improve his feet as they are so much better now than they were, but the only change has been the addition of MgO. I would like to improve the quality of his feet before I take his shoes off, by which I mean I want to ensure I am feeding correctly and in a way that will help to improve the horn quality. I did post in the Stable Yard last night to ask how much of every vit/min a horse needs but I think that was the wrong question, so... those of you who have barefoot horses who work reasonably hard, can I ask you how you would feed to improve his feet? Various supplements/additions to his diet have been suggested but I have had such a wide variety of products and quantities mentioned that I'm hoping I may be able to get a majority vote on here :) Seeing what a big difference including MgO in his diet has made to his feet must hopefully mean that if I further optimise things, the horn quality should continue to improve...

His usual feed is just a Stubbs scoop of Dengie Hifi and 1/4 Stubbs scoop of High Fibre Nuts, split between am and pm feeds. He also gets 1.5 scoops of JointFX (joint supp containing glucosamine, MSM, chrondroitin, rosehips, curcumin, plus lots of other anti inflam/arthritic supps) and MgO. It has been suggested to me that I add seaweed, linseed and Brewer's Yeast. When the two Dengie feeds run out then I am happy to exchange these for something like unmolassed sugar beet, so he has something to carry the supplements in (having searched previous posts on a similar topic, a lot of people seemed to suggest the latter).

What else, if anything, would you add to this diet to ensure he gets the nutrients required for good horn growth? What quantities would you feed? I don't want to feed too much of anything - a reply to my post last night mentioned feeding too much seaweed can be potentially harmful. It has been suggested that I have my forage analysed but our forage varies an awful lot between batches/suppliers (not from a consistent source and we never get two bales the same, even from the same supplier) so I don't think that would help much...

Thanks :) BTW I do realise I'm doing a great job of making myself look incredibly neurotic here but I promise I'm actually not! I'm just interested in what others would do. ATM I'm simply just feeding a small amount of them all and will continue to do so until I can decide what the right amounts are!
 
I'd personally not give sugar beet. Try speedi-beet instead. You want to keep sugar in your horses diet to a minimum. I give my horse seaweed but introduce it gradually as it takes some horses a while to get used to the taste.
 
i feed exactly what i fed when shod! leisure mix sugarbeet (molassed) and chaff. He's 32 and still going strong so i must be doing something right:D
 
KirstyLou said:
I'd personally not give sugar beet. Try speedi-beet instead. You want to keep sugar in your horses diet to a minimum. I give my horse seaweed but introduce it gradually as it takes some horses a while to get used to the taste.
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I did say unmolassed sugar beet though I think, didn't I?! And AFAIK Speedibeet is just a brand name for unmolassed sugar beet. Either way, yes I'm trying to do as you suggest and keep sugar to a minimum. My horse has shivers so I can't feed sugar or cereals really anyway as it makes it worse, hence him just getting bog standard chaff and high fibre nuts.

I'm glad you mentioned some horses taking a while to get used to seaweed - so far mine hates it!! How much do you give?
 
smiffyimp said:
i feed exactly what i fed when shod! leisure mix sugarbeet (molassed) and chaff. He's 32 and still going strong so i must be doing something right:D
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Thanks :) Should have said in my OP (though didn't want to add any more as it was an essay already) that I can't give him mixes or anything molassed as he shivers, so they make him worse. He isn't allowed even leisure mix - I gave him competition mix for a while, before I realised what the problem was, and he seized up :(
 
Lucky for you he is a good doer :)
BTW Hifi is molassed, perhaps switch that for hifi lite or the new non-molassed variety?

As for suppliments, simple systems has a product that is a combination of those you mention. Perhaps see if you can crib off them for the quantities!!!!
 
We have 2 Friesians, one who has never been shod (5 yrs old) and one who has been barefoot for the past 2.5 years (7 yrs old). We just feed them 1 scoop of pasture nuts with a handful of molly chaff, scoop of garlic, slush of soya oil and for their feet 2 scoops of Biotin. They get trimmed every six weeks. In the summer more when doing more road work.
We don't oil their hooves when it's extremely warm or cold. Have a Irish sports which we bought 6 months ago (she is 15) and taken her shoes of 3 months ago. She is doing good too. It really depends how much road work you intend to do when you first remove the shoes. Take it nice and easy and slowly. Good Luck.
 
I feed alfa a-lite and speedi, however, he's been unwell so without knowing past history, looking at horse and quality of pasture & hooves it would be hard to say. Why don't you ask farrier or experience EP?
 
What you are feeding looks OK really. You could swop the Hi Fi Lite for the unmolassed.
You don't have to use sugar beet pulp if you don't want. It is a good feed for the winter and provides a lot of bulk for low calories and it is a good carrier if needed for supplements or vitamins. But if your horse eats the magox OK then you might not need it.

It seems that lots of horses do very well on the cheapest pony nuts!

You can get seaweed/linseed/yeast mixtures from various barefoot suppliers. Simple Systems or there are some on Ebay.

Just keep things simple. I would see how you get on before going out and buying lots of additives you don't need and just stick to what you are doing now and only change if necessary.

Spray the feet with salt dissolved in water a few times a week, more to start with. This will kill any fungal diseases, which are very likely if the hoof has been shod. It will also help to harden the sole. Dissolve some salt in water, just too salty to drink. (Borax used to be recommended, but it is hard to get hold of and it is just a sort of salt really).
 
all our barefoot ridden horses have a very simple diet of hay, straw, very well washed molassed sugar beet to get rid of the molasses, and a small quantity of either micronized barley or hi fibre nuts. Only supplements are salt and seaweed,
They have had this diet for many years and do lots of work on it.

The biggest improvements to foot quality and rate of growth come about not by feed but by exercise. The more miles then the more the feet grow and the better quality growth.
I don't put anything on the feet except sudocreme if there is any thrush. As they don't seem to get that very much then there is little to do to the feet.
 
you should feed the same as when shod. you need to promote good horn growth for shoeingn if shoeing or barefoot if no shoes. It doesnt matter.
 
chestnut cob said:
I did say unmolassed sugar beet though I think, didn't I?! And AFAIK Speedibeet is just a brand name for unmolassed sugar beet. Either way, yes I'm trying to do as you suggest and keep sugar to a minimum. My horse has shivers so I can't feed sugar or cereals really anyway as it makes it worse, hence him just getting bog standard chaff and high fibre nuts.

I'm glad you mentioned some horses taking a while to get used to seaweed - so far mine hates it!! How much do you give?
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whoops so you did! Mine refused his feed when he first went onto seaweed, i started off by putting literally a small pinch in his feed. We're now up to a palm full. He has garlic in with his feed to which i should thinks masks the taste a bit.
 
ihatework said:
Lucky for you he is a good doer :)
BTW Hifi is molassed, perhaps switch that for hifi lite or the new non-molassed variety?

As for suppliments, simple systems has a product that is a combination of those you mention. Perhaps see if you can crib off them for the quantities!!!!
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TBH it seems they are all molassed! I am tempted to leave off the chaff altogether when this bag runs out (not much left in it) and use unmolassed sugar beet instead to carry his supps, as he should eat them happily in that.

It might be easier just to buy the SS product and be done with it too! :)
 
ORANGEHORSE said:
What you are feeding looks OK really. You could swop the Hi Fi Lite for the unmolassed.
You don't have to use sugar beet pulp if you don't want. It is a good feed for the winter and provides a lot of bulk for low calories and it is a good carrier if needed for supplements or vitamins. But if your horse eats the magox OK then you might not need it.

It seems that lots of horses do very well on the cheapest pony nuts!

You can get seaweed/linseed/yeast mixtures from various barefoot suppliers. Simple Systems or there are some on Ebay.

Just keep things simple. I would see how you get on before going out and buying lots of additives you don't need and just stick to what you are doing now and only change if necessary.

Spray the feet with salt dissolved in water a few times a week, more to start with. This will kill any fungal diseases, which are very likely if the hoof has been shod. It will also help to harden the sole. Dissolve some salt in water, just too salty to drink. (Borax used to be recommended, but it is hard to get hold of and it is just a sort of salt really).
Click to expand...

Thanks :) He will eat the MgO no problems, it's the seaweed he doesn't like. I've reduced the quantities of seaweed right down and will re-introduce it very slowly over the next month or so, gradually increasing the amount, and see if I can get him to eat it that way.

Will take a look at Simple Systems and on Ebay :)
 
scribble said:
you should feed the same as when shod. you need to promote good horn growth for shoeingn if shoeing or barefoot if no shoes. It doesnt matter.
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That makes sense however my point is that he doesn't have great feet ATM so the quality needs to be improved either way, whether he is going to be shod or not. And as he currently doesn't have brilliant feet while shod, I need to change his feed because what he is getting isn't working.... hence the question in my OP.
 
To be honest I'd keep him exactly the same - loads of fiber and as little sugar as poss ! That tends to be the way in barefoot world and it suits mine.

PS he should cope with his backs coming off easy peasy it's the fronts they tend to feel more
 
All 3 of mine only have fronts and are fed baileys lo cal balancer! My tb used to go a maximum of 5 weeks between being shod so we took her shoes off foe a while and changed her feed to the baileys (I'd tried biotin and seaweed before) her feet are amazing now! She has fronts on and goes 8 weeks happily between shoeings!

The lo cal contains

excellent levels of biotin, methionine, calcium and zinc promote healthy hoof growth and repair.
 
emmaln said:
All 3 of mine only have fronts and are fed baileys lo cal balancer! My tb used to go a maximum of 5 weeks between being shod so we took her shoes off foe a while and changed her feed to the baileys (I'd tried biotin and seaweed before) her feet are amazing now! She has fronts on and goes 8 weeks happily between shoeings!

The lo cal contains

excellent levels of biotin, methionine, calcium and zinc promote healthy hoof growth and repair.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the suggestion :) Is that all that is in the balancer? I tried a D&H balancer before but it made him fat so I'm wary of them now... (though I think it might have had soya in so it's my own stupid fault for feeding it in the first place, in that case!)
 
chestnut cob said:
That makes sense however my point is that he doesn't have great feet ATM so the quality needs to be improved either way, whether he is going to be shod or not. And as he currently doesn't have brilliant feet while shod, I need to change his feed because what he is getting isn't working.... hence the question in my OP.
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I can only speak from a barefoot point of view but I get the impression that you believe improving his feed is going to produce the better quality, faster growing feet needed to go barefoot. On some horses feed does seem to improve feet on some it doesn't. What improves feet is stimulus. ie constant moving unshod on challenging surfaces. That is what produces growth and more to point what produces quality growth and quality feet. People with successful barefoot horses realise that the key factor to it all is exercise.
To give you an example my horse's feet don't normally grow very much if he doesn't work. whatever I feed makes little difference. If he puts in say 60 miles exercise in a week I could be trimming him continuously there is so much growth. It is the work that produces the growth.
 
paddy555 said:
I can only speak from a barefoot point of view but I get the impression that you believe improving his feed is going to produce the better quality, faster growing feet needed to go barefoot. On some horses feed does seem to improve feet on some it doesn't. What improves feet is stimulus. ie constant moving unshod on challenging surfaces. That is what produces growth and more to point what produces quality growth and quality feet. People with successful barefoot horses realise that the key factor to it all is exercise.
To give you an example my horse's feet don't normally grow very much if he doesn't work. whatever I feed makes little difference. If he puts in say 60 miles exercise in a week I could be trimming him continuously there is so much growth. It is the work that produces the growth.
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From what I have read/been told, it seems to be a combination of the correct diet and exercise, no? So I want to make sure I get the diet right first. I can't deal with the exercise part of it until the shoes come off. He currently works 5-6 days a week but is shod so I guess is neither here nor there with regards to hoof growth. I can only start to provide stimulus to his barefoot/unshod feet once the shoes come off, which won't be until end of Feb for the backs and possibly the end of the summer for the fronts (if I take those off at all). Doesn't it make sense to make sure I have the right diet first? I would expect that if I can get the diet right in the first place, he will surely be more likely to have stronger feet by the time his shoes come off and maybe more likely to be able to cope?

I have been feeding MgO since April 2010 and the difference in his feet from that is huge. I am hoping that by tweaking the diet further, I will continue to improve the quality of the growing hoof and maybe he will be a bit more comfortable when unshod than he might be if I continue to feed as I currently am...

It can't all be about exercise as otherwise the barefoot people I've already spoken to wouldn't discuss diet in such detail.
 
TBH I think you are just getting a little paranoid about things.
You are already feeding a high fibre, low sugar diet already.
Don't over analyse, get the shoes off and take it from there.
Any change in feeding isn't going to make a great deal of difference between now and end of feb anyway.
 
Mine is barefoot and I am trying to cut out as much sugar in his diet as I can - I feed magOx as well and my farrier says his soles are nice and hard - his frogs on the front however are a but tender, but I am hoping they will harden up the more work we do, its only early days really.

I wanted to feed unmollassed chaff and found this stuff recently: http://www.ossichaff.com/sugarfree.html
 
chestnut cob said:
Thanks for the suggestion :) Is that all that is in the balancer? I tried a D&H balancer before but it made him fat so I'm wary of them now... (though I think it might have had soya in so it's my own stupid fault for feeding it in the first place, in that case!)
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Hi there, I looked at the ingredients and it does have soya in it but you don't feed very much here's what they say about it:

Lo-Cal balancer is a nutrient dense pellet containing all a horse or pony needs for health and well being but with a minimal carbohydrate (calorie) content.* Its quality protein provides the essential amino acids required to build and repair muscle and other tissues whilst Yea Sacc1026 stimulates fibre digesting bacteria, helping to improve gut efficiency.* The superior vitamin and mineral content promotes good health and supports performance and includes chelated (Bioplex) minerals which are more easily absorbed and utilised by the horse’s body.**

I feed it to all 3 of mine each are very different and have different things added my 4 yr old welshy is a seriously good doer!!! She just gets a mug full of baileys half scoop unmollassed chaff and garlic and this is how she's looking weightwise!
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos..._499071100294_721530294_7657887_6549057_n.jpg
 
ihatework said:
TBH I think you are just getting a little paranoid about things.
You are already feeding a high fibre, low sugar diet already.
Don't over analyse, get the shoes off and take it from there.
Any change in feeding isn't going to make a great deal of difference between now and end of feb anyway.
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LOL I did say in my OP that I realised I would be coming across as neurotic! ;) I promise I am not paranoid about it, I'm just curious/interested in it and procrastinating as I really ought to be working. I'm a bit of a geeky scientist at heart so I find it interesting to think about/look into - possibly I just need to get out a bit more! Currently he's just getting a bit of everything and I'm really just curious as to what other people would do/are feeding. I will most probably end up trying the Simple Systems supplement as it is all worked out for me then. Am not expecting it to make a difference before the end of Feb but it might just improve things by the end of the summer.

I am one of those people who likes to know how and why things work. My current obsession is this. I'm going away for 2 weeks with work on Sunday and when I come back, no doubt I will have something geeky and work-related that I'll be obsessed by instead, and the current obsession will be on the back burner ;)
 
Cut-heal hoof heal is very good - I noticed the difference on my TB within two weeks. Only needs to be put on three times a week to.
 
My 2 one tb , other sec D just get fast fibre with mug of micronised linseed and minerals that were worked out by a mineral analysis of hay and grass. Sarah Braithwaites website forage plus is a good place to look if interested in minerals :-) I just need to add mag ox, zinc , copper and selenium and my horses feet are fab.
My tb feet were better ( has navic hence tried barefoot) when changed to high fibre very low sugar but they always had very fine lines running down her back white hoof when we went onto balanced minerals even the fine lines grew out.
Your current diet is pretty good possibly it just needs tweaking :-)
 
My two are barefoot, the main difference in them is when they have lots of vitamin and minerals. The MagOx you are feeding gives one thing he was obviously lacking but a firmly believe a broad spectrum bit and min supplement is better. I use grand vite and grand complete (grand meadows products) and the difference is huge.
You stated that on the d&h balancer he went overweight, maybe he doesn't need the highfibre nuts when on the balancer, if not maybe try a 'lite' balancer or try a powder. 1 scoop of high fibre nuts a day is not likely to provide all his necessary vits and minerals. Good luck.:)
 
Thanks for the replies, it's all v interesting :)

Had a long chat with the technical people from Simple Systems earlier today and I think I may go with their Total Eclipse supplement (contains linseed, seaweed and brewer's yeast) plus either one of their Lucerne products or just unmolassed beet.
 
Charnwood Milling are a cheaper option for those 3 supplements but the simple systems is probably a good way to try and see if it works for you before buying bigger amounts.

I bought a big bag of seaweed and then had our fields analysed. Turned out they were really high in Iodine so seaweed was a bad idea and had to give it away.

I feed Alfalfa (lucerne) pellets and copra. Tend to avoid sugarbeet as he gets a bit hyper on it.
Then brewers yeast, linseed, magox, zinc, selenium and copper. But only because the fields are low in these and high in manganese which prevents absorbtion of copper and zinc. So a broad spectrum vit supplement which i fed before wasn't helping as it was increasing what he was already getting too much of.
Don't know if it's a coincidence but not only are his feet better but we also no longer have problems with thrush and mud fever.
 
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