Taking shoes off - what would you feed?

[paddy555]

From what I have read/been told, it seems to be a combination of the correct diet and exercise, no? So I want to make sure I get the diet right first. I can't deal with the exercise part of it until the shoes come off. He currently works 5-6 days a week but is shod so I guess is neither here nor there with regards to hoof growth. I can only start to provide stimulus to his barefoot/unshod feet once the shoes come off, which won't be until end of Feb for the backs and possibly the end of the summer for the fronts (if I take those off at all). Doesn't it make sense to make sure I have the right diet first? I would expect that if I can get the diet right in the first place, he will surely be more likely to have stronger feet by the time his shoes come off and maybe more likely to be able to cope?

I have been feeding MgO since April 2010 and the difference in his feet from that is huge. I am hoping that by tweaking the diet further, I will continue to improve the quality of the growing hoof and maybe he will be a bit more comfortable when unshod than he might be if I continue to feed as I currently am...

It can't all be about exercise as otherwise the barefoot people I've already spoken to wouldn't discuss diet in such detail.

When shoes are taken off a horse one of 2 things happen. There is a problem or there isn't. Some horses do fine on just about any diet and exercise is the key to building good feet. The other group cannot manage to go barefoot as they are "footsore/ouchy". That is not horses for the first few days just getting used to it but it is a longterm problem as to why some horses just cannot seem to go barefoot and on the face of it need shoeing. That is the group where diet is the key. Getting rid of sugar ie mollasses and for some of the worst ones getting rid of grass. Only by getting the exact diet for that difficult group can you get them sound and thus able to be exercised. Having got to that stage then exercise again becomes the key to improving feet. Regular exercise is also the key to the metabolic problem horses.

If you are only taking the backs off you may well not have a problem. It is usually the fronts that are more difficult.

It seems that sometimes people try and overmanage the transition to unshod riding horses.

 

[chestnut cob]

Charnwood Milling are a cheaper option for those 3 supplements but the simple systems is probably a good way to try and see if it works for you before buying bigger amounts.

I had a long chat with Simple Systems this afternoon and they were incredibly helpful. They have suggested giving him a Lucerne product (she suggested the dried version that can be soaked, like sugar beet), which he only needs to have a tiny bit of to carry his supplements each day. That is £11 for 20kg and I think it will last me 6 months, judging by how long it takes me to use a bag of beet. The most expensive thing is the forage balancer - I've gone for the Total Eclipse product. It was something like £30 for 5kg or £50 for 15kg so went for the bigger option. The SS person told me how much to feed a horse of his size and that 15kg bag should last me a good 3-4 months at least. The initial outlay seems incredibly expensive but I think it will be cheaper than buying the supplements separately in the long run, and only works out at £2 a month more expensive that what I currently feed.

It might be a cop out but I prefer the option of feeding a prepared supplement as I don't have to be quite so neurotic about it all when working out what to feed!

 

[chestnut cob]

When shoes are taken off a horse one of 2 things happen. There is a problem or there isn't. Some horses do fine on just about any diet and exercise is the key to building good feet. The other group cannot manage to go barefoot as they are "footsore/ouchy". That is not horses for the first few days just getting used to it but it is a longterm problem as to why some horses just cannot seem to go barefoot and on the face of it need shoeing. That is the group where diet is the key. Getting rid of sugar ie mollasses and for some of the worst ones getting rid of grass. Only by getting the exact diet for that difficult group can you get them sound and thus able to be exercised. Having got to that stage then exercise again becomes the key to improving feet. Regular exercise is also the key to the metabolic problem horses.

The latter is quite important I think, for my horse... he is a shiverer and I find that if he has a long period without exercise, he tends to seize up. I have also tried to cut down/remove the sugar from his feed as much as possible for the same reason - too much sugar, he seizes up and also becomes very difficult for the farrier to shoe behind.

At what point do you draw the line and decide the horse isn't just a bit footsore but has some other underlying problem?

It seems that sometimes people try and overmanage the transition to unshod riding horses.

Me, I guess?!

 

[criso]

I had a long chat with Simple Systems this afternoon and they were incredibly helpful. They have suggested giving him a Lucerne product (she suggested the dried version that can be soaked, like sugar beet), which he only needs to have a tiny bit of to carry his supplements each day. That is £11 for 20kg and I think it will last me 6 months, judging by how long it takes me to use a bag of beet. The most expensive thing is the forage balancer - I've gone for the Total Eclipse product. It was something like £30 for 5kg or £50 for 15kg so went for the bigger option. The SS person told me how much to feed a horse of his size and that 15kg bag should last me a good 3-4 months at least. The initial outlay seems incredibly expensive but I think it will be cheaper than buying the supplements separately in the long run, and only works out at £2 a month more expensive that what I currently feed.

It might be a cop out but I prefer the option of feeding a prepared supplement as I don't have to be quite so neurotic about it all when working out what to feed!

That's actually alot more expensive than I thought but there's alot to be said for the convenience of buying things premixed but it is a much more expensive way of doing it.

I use alfalfa pellets, lucerne is just another name for alfalfa. £7.80 for 20kg. It doesn't fluff up as much as sugarbeet so probably won't last as long. I feed 1/4 stubbs scoop twice a day and it lasts about 3 weeks.


The other place you can look is natural horse supplies, they do small amounts of premixes at a reasonable price, their linseed, seaweed and brewers yeast is £2.49 for 900g

http://www.naturalhorsesupplies.co.uk/?p=product&key=0803294696

 

[Kallibear]

On the same vein (sorry, highjacking): what quantities should the supplements be fed in? For seaweed, Linseed meal and brewers yeast?

I'm just about to runout of my stock piled general supplement so going to go down the barefoot mix route but it's hard to find set quantities. I'm not really wanting to pay the extra for premixed stuff when I could easily make my own up.

And suggestions on cheap places to buy them? I'd want buy in bulk although not ridiculous quantities.

 

[criso]

Somebody posted about suppliers for brewers yeast a few days ago so worth doing a search.
Charnwood is by far the cheapest but it is large quantities. It's OK for the linseed which you tend to feed more of but a sack of brewers yeast or seaweed will last a long time.
They will deliver but they are one of those companies that I find alot of feed places deal with.

The ebay company (natural horse supplies) I posted the link for aren't bad for price for smaller quantities and i think Equus Health do straights seaweed and brewer's yeast.

And if you are feeding magnesium and don't want to buy a whole sack, equimins do straight minerals at really good prices, it's not listed on their website but if you call them they will send a price list.

Quantities - not very scientific
linseed about a mug full this time of year, less in the summer when the grass is growing.
Brewers yeast one of the larger scoops heaped
Don't feed seaweed anymore but fed a smaller scoop - about half the volume of brewers yeast

 

[Andalusianlover]

My horse has been "unshod" for a couple of years now. At no point did I change his diet. He has chaff, pasture mix and a Supplement called Winter Glow Summer Shine, appears to have allsorts in it. Exercise wise I was careful to begin with and only took him on none gravelly roads and of course grass. He hasnt had his feet touched/trimmed now for 2 years even though he has regular checks with my farrier who now hates me. He reckons my horse has the best feet of any he looks after. We compete at all disciplines.

 

[chestnut cob]

That's actually alot more expensive than I thought but there's alot to be said for the convenience of buying things premixed but it is a much more expensive way of doing it.

Maybe I've been had! The SS stuff is on the way now but at least this way (she says, trying desperately to justify the expense!!) he will get a few months on the pre-mixed stuff and if I like it / he does well then I can start to look more closely at where else I could buy that will be cheaper.

The other place you can look is natural horse supplies, they do small amounts of premixes at a reasonable price, their linseed, seaweed and brewers yeast is £2.49 for 900g

http://www.naturalhorsesupplies.co.uk/?p=product&key=0803294696

Thanks for the link, that works out at about £10 cheaper than the Simple Systems stuff I think (in the long run) so I know where to look next time The Alfalfa you buy is cheaper as well. TBH my horse usually only gets enough feed to carry his supplements though he has been getting a bit more recently and I've cut it right down again now - he only needs a bit of either SB / lucerne / whatever for the supplements so hopefully it will last. I bought my last lot of stuff from Barefoot Basics but it cost me a fortune, £25 inc delivery for about 14 days supply of the various things so won't be buying from there again I don't think.

 

[chestnut cob]

On the same vein (sorry, highjacking): what quantities should the supplements be fed in? For seaweed, Linseed meal and brewers yeast?

I'm just about to runout of my stock piled general supplement so going to go down the barefoot mix route but it's hard to find set quantities. I'm not really wanting to pay the extra for premixed stuff when I could easily make my own up.

And suggestions on cheap places to buy them? I'd want buy in bulk although not ridiculous quantities.

This is the reason I've gone for a pre-mixed supplement, because I just couldn't find any accurate figures for how much I should be feeding. I've been told everything from 50g to 900g of linseed per day, 5-25g MgO per day, 20-60g Brewer's Yeast... ATM I'm just chucking a bit of everything in! I've bought the Simple Systems supplement with all of the above in (bar the MagOx, because they say their Lucerne is high enough in Mg not to add it to a supplement) simply because it makes my life a bit easier for the time being.

 

[lara.rixmartin]

I would highly recommend feeding biotin, you can buy plenty of products that have biotin added. There is a lot of research out there with evidence of the hoof wall becoming stronger, it takes around a month to see results but its worth it!


Unless you're working your horse over medium workloads try to keep it on an all forage diet with some supplements ( such as an all round balancer or powder) fibre is a great source of energy that takes longer to digest, therefore giving a more even release of energy (no fizz!)

Hope this helps!

 

[criso]

This is the reason I've gone for a pre-mixed supplement, because I just couldn't find any accurate figures for how much I should be feeding. I've been told everything from 50g to 900g of linseed per day, 5-25g MgO per day, 20-60g Brewer's Yeast... ATM I'm just chucking a bit of everything in! I've bought the Simple Systems supplement with all of the above in (bar the MagOx, because they say their Lucerne is high enough in Mg not to add it to a supplement) simply because it makes my life a bit easier for the time being.

I know what you mean, It's not easy unless you get an analysis done and get advised for your exact feed. Someone can say that a horse weighing x need so many grams but without knowing what he is getting from other sources it is difficult to be sure which is why you get the variation.

Magox depends on what is available in your forage/other feedstuffs and should be balanced to calcium. I believe Alfalfa is quite high in calcium which could mean more magox not less so sounds a bit odd that they are saying otherwise. Unless rather than a pure alfalfa product it has already had magnesium added to it to balance the calcium.

Linseed should partly be based on how much dry hay you are feeding to replace what is lost in the hay making process.

By the way that site I mentioned I think does custom blends looking at their list of products some look like they've been developed by request.

 

[treacle_beastie]

I am reading this post with great interest as am now 3 weeks into having a a barefoot horse.

I havent really changed her diet either - she gets 3/4 scoop happy hoof, 1/2 scoop unmollassed beet, benevit advance, garlic, EA calmer. I have now added biotin to the diet. My farrier (yeah I know he isnt a barefoot trimmer but he has plenty of hardworking barefoot horses on his books) recommended happy hoof which I already used and to add biotin.

It will start to be cut down soon as we are fast approaching spring and I want to get some weight off her before the grass starts coming through but I am not going to change it unless I feel the happy hoof is causing a problem but I think in the quantity I feed it it shouldnt do anything. I might have a rethink about the bag of treats I just bought though - although lo sugar she gets a few and I'm sure thats quite bad!

 

[chestnut cob]

Unless you're working your horse over medium workloads try to keep it on an all forage diet with some supplements ( such as an all round balancer or powder) fibre is a great source of energy that takes longer to digest, therefore giving a more even release of energy (no fizz!)

Hope this helps!

That is more or less all he gets now! I currently feed chaff and High Fibre Nuts plus haylage... it's just a high fibre diet with a joint supplement, MagOx and more recently, seaweed, linseed and brewer's yeast... I think I said in my OP/ early in the post that I've been feeding him a pretty much fibre only diet for about 18 months because he shivers and sugars/starch/cereals affect him

 

[chestnut cob]

Magox depends on what is available in your forage/other feedstuffs and should be balanced to calcium. I believe Alfalfa is quite high in calcium which could mean more magox not less so sounds a bit odd that they are saying otherwise. Unless rather than a pure alfalfa product it has already had magnesium added to it to balance the calcium.

They were looking at it from the other angle... she said Mg can displace Ca so you need to balance the Ca with the Mg (whereas you are saying high Ca forage means he needs more Mg). She did say that their Alfalfa has decent levels of both Ca and Mg so they don't recommend supplementing with either... I guess all I can do is give it a go and see how he is after a few weeks. And quite possibly I have misunderstood the SS lady!

 

[criso]

You need to keep a 2 to 1 ratio so yes you can look at it from either angle.

They may have already added it and that could be why it's a bit more than the straight pellets, check the white label for ingredients when it arrives and let us know.

 

[chestnut cob]

You need to keep a 2 to 1 ratio so yes you can look at it from either angle.

They may have already added it and that could be why it's a bit more than the straight pellets, check the white label for ingredients when it arrives and let us know.

It should be arriving either today or on Tuesday so watch this space

 

[criso]

Btw Brewers Yeast is a good natural source of B7 (biotin) so anyone feeding that is feeding biotin. Plus it's worth checking ingredients,
A friend is feeding the Magic calmer, key ingredients Brewers Yeast and magnesium.

 

[paddy555]

The latter is quite important I think, for my horse... he is a shiverer and I find that if he has a long period without exercise, he tends to seize up. I have also tried to cut down/remove the sugar from his feed as much as possible for the same reason - too much sugar, he seizes up and also becomes very difficult for the farrier to shoe behind.

At what point do you draw the line and decide the horse isn't just a bit footsore but has some other underlying problem?



Me, I guess?!

At what point do you draw the line? that depends on how well you know your horse because with a barefoot horse you will get to know him very well..!! These comments are on the basis you may well take the fronts off as well as the backs often don't cause as many problems.
Leaving aside accidents etc a barefoot horse will be footsore for 2 reasons. Firstly human error ie too much work eg trotting on roads and wearing his feet before the feet can put out enough growth and cope, thrush, or too much work over gravel and stones before his feet are conditioned. The way to prevent it is of course care not to do too much, riding on grass for part of time and building up gradually. Booting as well if more mileage is needed and the feet are not up to it. You do however need to do some work unbooted to provide stimulus to condition the feet.
If, hand on heart, you can be sure none of those apply then you are down to the second reason ie diet and probably sugar although alfalfa has caused problems as well. Sugar does unfortunately for some horses extend to grass.
The way to deal with that is an elimination diet. ie remove everything and feed just soaked hay. Is he sounder? if so add a tiny bit of something else eg grass, still sound? add a bit more. Do the same for other feed and supplements etc one at a time until you start to find problems. Whilst you are doing all this keep a diary of the exercise. You may be able to feed a lot more without problems if you have more exercise. That is why boots are so good for newly deshod horses as you can keep up the exercise regime (to give the horse the best chance metabolically) without wearing the feet.

I suspect that if you take your shoes off (and I realise you may leave the fronts on) that your horse will be very interesting. You find out a lot about the horse when you remove their shoes. You may think he is on a rubbish diet yet he is sound as a pound barefoot. On the other hand you may think you have worked out the perfect diet and he is footsore. You can never tell until you try and every single horse is different.

 

[chestnut cob]

Btw Brewers Yeast is a good natural source of B7 (biotin) so anyone feeding that is feeding biotin. Plus it's worth checking ingredients,
A friend is feeding the Magic calmer, key ingredients Brewers Yeast and magnesium.

Yes, the chap from Simple System who has just dropped my feed off said there is no need for me to add biotin when giving my horse the Lucerne and Total Eclipse because there is enough in there. I checked with him re. the Mg and Ca. He said the Lucerne has been balanced to have the correct ratio of both, in fact he made a point of telling me not to add extra Mg.

Treacle - how is she getting on without her front shoes?

Paddy - thanks for your reply. I can ride only on grass and a sand surface/arena to begin with if need be. The elimination diet sounds sensible and no doubt when I am closer to making a decision about his front feet, I will be boring you all by asking for hoof boot recommendations I agree, I think my horse will be very interesting if/when I take his shoes off. I am just worried I will do something to make him lame, or that I won't pick up on things I should do!

 

[treacle_beastie]

Treacle - how is she getting on without her front shoes?

OK I think, my friends farrier was visiting yesterday and I got him to cast an eye over them and to give me his honest opinion of how she is coping, he said they looked fine and rasped a bit of the flare off which has helped with reduce the bits of grit getting into the white line where the nails went - this is what makes her footy over the stony track to the paddock. I try to avoid the stony bits but its impossible to miss them all.

Shes been fine on roads -happily walking out.

We have been experiencing an odd issue - not sure if its a problem or not. At first her legs were puffy and feet quite hot, this went within a week or so. Then one night this week she came in with one warm puffy leg and hot hoof, by morning cold, not puffy, not lame. Rode her next day as normal. This morning, slightly hotter hoof than other, came in from field, cold again??? 2 things had happened. On the night she came in with hot hoof she had been pacing up and down the fenceline in the mud and this morning she had been banging the door - 2 things she doesnt normally do but I am just going to assume these were the cause. I initially thought an abcess was brewing but its too inconsistent. Just keeping an eye on it - been a lot more paranoid about legs and feet since going barefoot - def more neurotic than normal!

Will keep you updated. Don't forget though she was barefoot when I got her so shes only has shoes on a couple of years but I swear this affected her movement!

Sorry that was quite a long answer!

 

[chestnut cob]

Funnily enough I was thinking about this thread this afternoon at the yard and I thought I remember Treacle being barefoot when she arrived at the yard.

I am still stressing about the entire prospect of taking his shoes off you know! I am OK with the backs but ATM I have a sound horse and I'm just a bit apprehensive about what I might find (ie, what, if anything, are the shoes masking?) if/when they come off! As a friend from another forum said to me...if the horse is only sound in shoes then it isn't sound, but nevertheless taking his shoes off means that I assume responsibility for everything rather than just handing him to the farrier.

Something else I was thinking about earlier too, to save making a new thread... I am interested to know whether trimmers trim a horse differently to a farrier, assuming it's the same horse, is in work and both do a good job of the trim? What I seem to be hearing ATM is that farriers can only do a "paddock trim" but barefoot trimmers seem to do something differently? I am confused!

 

[treacle_beastie]

Funnily enough I was thinking about this thread this afternoon at the yard and I thought I remember Treacle being barefoot when she arrived at the yard.

I am still stressing about the entire prospect of taking his shoes off you know! I am OK with the backs but ATM I have a sound horse and I'm just a bit apprehensive about what I might find (ie, what, if anything, are the shoes masking?) if/when they come off! As a friend from another forum said to me...if the horse is only sound in shoes then it isn't sound, but nevertheless taking his shoes off means that I assume responsibility for everything rather than just handing him to the farrier.

Something else I was thinking about earlier too, to save making a new thread... I am interested to know whether trimmers trim a horse differently to a farrier, assuming it's the same horse, is in work and both do a good job of the trim? What I seem to be hearing ATM is that farriers can only do a "paddock trim" but barefoot trimmers seem to do something differently? I am confused!

Guess it depends on the farrier - mine as plenty of barefoot hardworking horses on his books and they have all been fine and he come highly recommended so I'm sticking with him! I'll think you will be fine - at least with the backs, if he doesnt cope then you can always put them back on! I know what you mean about shoes masking problems though but I dont want to put them back on if a problem arises now because it wont be fixing it will it?! I am wondering how she will cope with XC though but its a few months off yet!

 

[criso]

My farrier trims mine, I do alot of work with him and he really only needs a tidy. I have to actively stop him from trimming the sole and frog

My personal experience of farriers is that they don't really advise about diet and exercise and the response to any problem seems to be to put a bit of Kevin Bacon or Keratex on the hoof, I think they have shares in it.

But I take care of that so using a farrier works for me at the moment.
If my farrier stopped working round here then I would consider using either depending on who came recommended.