Talk to me about kissing spine

[J_sarahd]

I know everyone’s experience is different but I just need a bit of advice.

So my boy has been showing a few symptoms which I think are kissing spine symptoms.

He has become quite irritable in general, hates being tacked up and will try and bite me when doing his girth up, swishes tail and ears go back when asking for canter and is really difficult to get on.

The vets coming on Tuesday morning. But, what are people’s experiences with KS? Do these sound like possible KS symptoms and should I mention I’m concerned that it could be that on Tuesday whether or not they suggest it’s that?

 

[ycbm]

Yes they are, but remind us if he's been checked out for ulcers as out would be more likely to be that from how he is on the ground, I think.

 

[BBP]

I don’t have experience of kissing spines so based on the experience I do have I’d also be thinking ulcers.

 

[IrishMilo]

I've had two X-rayed adamant they had KS and neither of them did, so I wouldn't worry yourself too much until you see the radiographs. Am I remembering right that the horse hasn't had any investigations done yet? If so I'd start with back, neck and hocks.

 

[Bellaboo18]

My first thought would be ulcers...then why has he potentially got ulcers, could be ks.

 

[J_sarahd]

Ulcers was the other thing I was thinking but certain people (if you know, you know) have said there’s absolutely no way he can have ulcers and to just stick him on acid ease. But I do think ulcers is also a high possibility. I am of course willing to any and all investigations necessary. I just have a bit of a weird feeling it’s KS.

 

[Bellaboo18]

Ulcers was the other thing I was thinking but certain people (if you know, you know) have said there’s absolutely no way he can have ulcers and to just stick him on acid ease. But I do think ulcers is also a high possibility. I am of course willing to any and all investigations necessary. I just have a bit of a weird feeling it’s KS.

But then if hes got pain from ks hes got a high chance of ulcers.
I couldn't trust someone that said theres absolutely no way he could have ulcers, why?

 

[J_sarahd]

That’s very true. Both people who said it have horses with ulcers who are very typical ulcer horses - stressy, underweight etc and my pony is not like that. As well, because they’re both seemingly more experienced horse owners I trusted them a bit more than I should’ve

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

His symptoms sound like ulcers to me, tbh - and there may well be an underlying cause of the pain behind the ulcers, which will need to be investigated by your vet.

I have no idea why you take any notice of a person that you don't even like but what she said doesn't make sense. What would be the point of giving Acid Ease if he doesn't have ulcers? You really need to begin to trust your own judgement

 

[Bellaboo18]

That’s very true. Both people who said it have horses with ulcers who are very typical ulcer horses - stressy, underweight etc and my pony is not like that. As well, because they’re both seemingly more experienced horse owners I trusted them a bit more than I should’ve

My mare that had ulcers last year (scoped clear just before Christmas) is a good doer we actually combined ulcer treatment with a diet. She's definitely not a stressy type; I think the stoic, quiet types can have alot going on before we notice something is wrong.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Ulcers was the other thing I was thinking but certain people (if you know, you know) have said there’s absolutely no way he can have ulcers and to just stick him on acid ease. But I do think ulcers is also a high possibility. I am of course willing to any and all investigations necessary. I just have a bit of a weird feeling it’s KS.

My good doer heffalump had grade three ulcers, everyone said he wasn't the type.

There is no type for ulcers.

I would check ulcers and if he has them then do a work up as they are normally a secondary condition to pian elsewhere.

KS, suspensiorys, hocks normally go together.

A friends horse had ulcers from the pain of an infected tooth root and once it was removed the ulcers cleared up.

 

[be positive]

I had one in my yard that became very grumpy was reluctant to work normally , xrays showed minor KS which proved to be secondary to minor changes to her hocks, she had hocks injected as stage 1 and went through a carefully targeted rehab, her attitude improved very quickly and she is now in full work going better than ever, we also considered ulcers but they were on the 'to do list' if she did not show signs of improving as they are rarely the primary issue, I would start with a work up and see where that leads then do one thing at a time rather than all at once which can confuse matters.

 

[Cowpony]

I've had one with very bad kissing spine. It was right under the saddle and it was clear the vet didn't think it was worth operating so she was retired at the age of 6. She was clearly uncomfortable under saddle, started bucking in trot, didn't want anybody near her and would pin you to the wall if she got the chance. I think she'd probably had her back injected before I bought her, because I loaned for a month before buying and she was lovely.

 

[sbloom]

I would definitely want to rule out ulcers, if you start going down the KS route I would strongly advise reading up about postural work such as that done by Manolo Mendez and quite a few others, many based in truly classical dressage type work, lifting the thoracic sling. I would never advise against surgical intervention as such, but once your eyes are opened to what good postural work can do it may give you a broader view in which to consider vet advice.

 

[J_sarahd]

Just so everyone knows, I will obviously be taking the advice of my vet and going down the investigative routes they suggest. I do think that a scope will be first on the list though. I was after some KS experiences because it’s been niggling the back of my mind that he’s got it and I’ve heard things about horses not really coming back from it etc.

I guess if he does have ulcers, it will be a case of then having to find the cause of the ulcers

 

[DZ2]

I have one with KS and he was displaying all the symptoms described by OP except he always very good to get on, my vet said he's unusual at this. He was also very sharp to ride, spooky, rearing etc. At first we though ulcers but he scoped clear.

KS was operated and he improved massively though it took a lot longer to rehab him than the standard plan vets give. He also has problem hocks and front suspensory damage which we seem to be able to treat/manage at the moment but I'm not sure about long term prospects (he's still a young).

 

[Green Bean]

My mare had similar symptoms to what you are describing and I went through the Regumate trial, saddle fitter, ulcers and x-ray. Ended up as KS in 2 vertebrae. I have opted for the non-operation option of working within her limits, very slowly to build up the core she needs to lift her back, which will help with her KS. I take it very slowly saddling her up, letting her smell (and lick) the saddle while I stand there until she is relaxed about me putting it on her. I have also invested in fleece lined girths as I think some of her reaction to girthing is a learned pain response. We are making progress by taking it slowly which has also assisted in her trusting me more. The KS diagnosis won't go away, but I think you need to listen carefully to your horse and the advice from your vet. Have a look at absolutely everything that impacts on your horse's environment. Good luck

 

[ycbm]

I have one with KS and he was displaying all the symptoms described by OP except he always very good to get on, my vet said he's unusual at this. He was also very sharp to ride, spooky, rearing etc.

Mine was good all the time and then just used to randomly explode at a competition where the transitions have to come where they are required, not when he felt ready. I had suspicions and had him xrayed the first time he wriggled when I rode away from the mounting block.

 

[J_sarahd]

I think the getting on is his worst symptom, which is why I have had KS niggling at the back of my mind. He’s never been particularly good at it, but as he was young when I got him and very green, I had it down to just a lack of education. And he did get better to be fair to him, it’s just recently he’s gone back to really, really not wanting me to get on and then scooting forward as soon as I get on.

I’m guessing both ulcer and KS symptoms could be less during lunging/free-schooling? As he seems happier doing both than being ridden (he is currently lunged in just a head collar with a lunge line)

 

[sportsmansB]

mine has some kissing spines. He gets injected once a year at the moment and we are careful with his management (hay on floor, warm up back before riding with a good walk or a quick lunge, etc)
It helps that he is a very 'round' horse to ride (hollow is not in his vobaulary at all) so he has helped himself that way. I have his x rays from 3 years ago (he's 16) and there is little change.
Its not necessarily a retirement or surgery scenario, depending on what the vet says. The quality of xrays has also improved massively over the last few years so they are able to assess it much better.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Just so everyone knows, I will obviously be taking the advice of my vet and going down the investigative routes they suggest. I do think that a scope will be first on the list though. I was after some KS experiences because it’s been niggling the back of my mind that he’s got it and I’ve heard things about horses not really coming back from it etc.

I guess if he does have ulcers, it will be a case of then having to find the cause of the ulcers

Some do some don't, it depends on a lot of other things as well.

My wb was retired at 13 as most of her back was fused, a friends horse had the lig snip and after good rehab was back of BE100 the next year.

 

[sbloom]

I’m guessing both ulcer and KS symptoms could be less during lunging/free-schooling? As he seems happier doing both than being ridden (he is currently lunged in just a head collar with a lunge line)

I think so many lamenesses too are much worse ridden, and might make some of us point to the saddle, but of course carrying a rider, the weight in and of itself, the change in posture, any potential pressure points from a less than perfect saddle....so many things are bound to show more.

The non-ridden work you're doing is going to help, do have a look into making it as postural as possible, I have a list of websites I can mail out to anyone who pms me their email address.

 

[J_sarahd]

Update: he’s being scoped on Friday morning. He’s really not going to like not eating for 12 hours but it’ll give us a bit more clarity either way.

 

[skint1]

Good idea to scope for ulcers. My ID mare had grades 2 and 3, suspected also in the hindgut- cleared them up but as others have said, there were other physical issues for her that seem to be connected. Good luck and fingers crossed for a good outcome!