Talk to me about PSSM

J_sarahd

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I’ve been wracking my brain about Shadow because I think there’s something not right with him but I can’t quite put my finger on what it is.

I’ve done some research into vitamin e deficiency following a few posts on here about supplementing vit e in the second half of winter. And I’ve also done research and found that PSSM 2 can be found in connies and apparently there are some red flags in his lines.

The symptoms:

General lethargy under saddle - worse if he’s had a day off the day before. I have had rides where he feels great and forward. But these were in October/November. It often feels like I’m riding with the handbrake on. He has never done anything that raises massive red flags (except our first canter back out with others hacking after his break!) and really tries to do what I ask of him.

No muscle and difficulty building muscle. I know I’ve only had him a few months but he came to me with no muscle and I’m having difficulty building it. He looks exactly the same as he arrived despite feeding more and a high protein diet. I’ve also been really focusing our sessions on things to help build muscle- poles, hills, groundwork. I can add photos of him if people are interested.

Grumpiness in his stable especially around food.

He has had his saddle and teeth checked as well as our physio, who is due back out a week tomorrow.

He shows no negative reaction to being tacked up or groomed. Fine to pick all 4 feet up and back palpates fine.

He is out with another and is bottom of the pack. Not sure if that’s relevant but perhaps might explain the grumpiness around food.

I think he will always be a laidback sort but there’s just something I can put my finger on.

My question is, because I have absolutely no experience with PSSM, does this sound like it? And apart from adding vit e to his diet, how can I properly manage it?

(Goes without saying that if I try and manage it as a PSSM case and there are no changes in the next few weeks, I’ll be getting the vet out)
 

ycbm

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General lethargy under saddle - worse if he’s had a day off the day before


Big red flag there. I'm so sorry to read this Sarah, I was hoping for you to have a worry free experience with this one.

You should, if you haven't already, do the hair-pull PSSM1 test from Animal Genetics. Don't under any circumstances, no matter how convincing anyone is, do the PSSM2 test, it isn't a good one.
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J_sarahd

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Big red flag there. I'm so sorry to read this Sarah, I was hoping for you to have a worry free experience with this one.

You should, if you haven't already, do the hair-pull PSSM1 test from Animal Genetics. Don't under any circumstances, no matter how convincing anyone is, do the PSSM2 test, it isn't a good one.
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Me too! But I think my experience with Nova has basically made me an overthinker and able to spot signs of things. Everyone on the yard just think he’s an undermuscled, lazy connie

Okay, thank you!
 

I'm Dun

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Hopefully hes just vitamin e deficient. If he was fine and has worsened, it does indicate that. Get him on a high dose of natural vitamin e oil, and magnesium and see what happens. Type 1 is very rare in connies so I've got everything crossed.
 

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I know I bang on about it but do get Selenium/vit E levels checked. I'd have full bloods, and make sur these are included as extras, as well as the PSSM. Subtle poor performance and poor demeanor were what raised the red flag for me but there was a lot of detective work (by me) before selenium deficiency was discovered in my young mare. In retrospect there were other signs. Have a look at this thread:
 

lynz88

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I agree with YCBM. I’d also try supplementing the Vit E at a high dose to see if it makes any difference
This. Make sure it's natural vit e. When mine gets low (he also has problems building muscle, he becomes very depressed, weak, loses weight, lethargic), I put him in 10,000 IU/day between natural vit e and other feed sources. He's also an EPM horse so high vit e does him well in general. You should see a change in about 2 weeks if vit e is a problem.
 

J_sarahd

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This. Make sure it's natural vit e. When mine gets low (he also has problems building muscle, he becomes very depressed, weak, loses weight, lethargic), I put him in 10,000 IU/day between natural vit e and other feed sources. He's also an EPM horse so high vit e does him well in general. You should see a change in about 2 weeks if vit e is a problem.
Really hoping its just this - much cheaper and easy to manage than everything else my brain has been thinking of the past week or so.

Would people suggest to start on 10,000 IU?
 

lynz88

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Really hoping its just this - much cheaper and easy to manage than everything else my brain has been thinking of the past week or so.

Would people suggest to start on 10,000 IU?
FP recommends 5,000-10,000 IU for stressed or unwell horses. I find I need to keep him on around 6,000-10,000 for him to be ok (he's got very poor grazing) but this is calculated across all of his feed sources and seems to work for him. I've only learned through experimentation. I can take him off in the summer for a few months but then have to significantly up it come about Sept time.
 

J_sarahd

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FP recommends 5,000-10,000 IU for stressed or unwell horses. I find I need to keep him on around 6,000-10,000 for him to be ok (he's got very poor grazing) but this is calculated across all of his feed sources and seems to work for him. I've only learned through experimentation. I can take him off in the summer for a few months but then have to significantly up it come about Sept time.
Okay, perfect, thank you. I’ll work out how much is in his other feed and supplement accordingly
 

scats

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I have one with PSSM, though she doesn’t present many of the typical PSSM symptoms. It took me a while to suspect PSSM due to this. It was only when a vet mentioned a similar horse it at a routine appointment that I got her tested. She tested positive for type 1 .I did also, for my own curiosity, test her for PSSM2, simply as I was curious about the px gene, which she does also have.

She’s managed with a high dose of vitamin e oil and she’s kept warm at all times. She doesn’t have the lethargy or any of those signs, but she will suddenly boil over, go white with foam and then refuse to move and start looking like she has colic. She used to throw herself on the ground in the stable after being ridden. A few years ago I sent her in for ovary scans as me and the vets were baffled. Nobody suspected PSSM back then because her signs were not totally typical.

I also keep feed very low in sugar and starch (less then 10%) and she has no alfalfa. She can’t work much due to PSD but she does 20 mins light work either under saddle or on long reins. I don’t hack her anymore since the broken ankle incident, but she actually loves working in the school (she’s more enthusiastic than Millie has ever been!)
 

ycbm

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I would go straight to the vet for a performance work up.


I would normally agree with you, but with how he is presenting and no obvious pain or lameness, then imo it's worth looking at PSSM first. It's my impression that most vets won't consider PSSM on a performance work up and Sarah could raise a lot of later hassles on her insurance if a performance workup is on his vet record.
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Exasperated

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Big red flag there. I'm so sorry to read this Sarah, I was hoping for you to have a worry free experience with this one.

You should, if you haven't already, do the hair-pull PSSM1 test from Animal Genetics. Don't under any circumstances, no matter how convincing anyone is, do the PSSM2 test, it isn't a good one.
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Agree with this, and I certainly wouldn’t have the PSSM Type 2 biopsy done - expensive, unpleasant for your horse, some risks, can produce both false positives and false negatives, and could never answer whether there is or is not a genetic link because it does not test genetics.
A vet nurse at Liverpool posted on here that the uni veterinary faculty have been researching familial links and PSSM2, will try to find that for you, because asking for a referral there might resolve what you are dealing with.
Plus, another poster discussing detailed muscle issues and selenium deficiencies, most interesting and possibly highly relevant.
Vitamin E is sensible, keeping the horse a lot warmer than would usually be the case, and keeping the horse ‘moving’ as much as possible.
Inactivity, getting chilled, are about the worst. Good luck, PSSM is a tragedy.
 

J_sarahd

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I would normally agree with you, but with how he is presenting and no obvious pain or lameness, then imo it's worth looking at PSSM first. It's my impression that most vets won't consider PSSM on a performance work up and Sarah could raise a lot of later hassles on her insurance if a performance workup is on his vet record.
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Thank you and yes, I’m normally the first to call the vet and get a performance work up, but he is sound and there’s no other niggly little things that are saying pain to me. Farrier and physio are both happy with him (apart from his muscling) and it’s just a general “not right” feeling I’m getting. Obviously if it turns out that he doesn’t have PSSM and/or the vit e doesn’t improve things, I’ll be straight on the phone to my vet
 

J_sarahd

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Agree with this, and I certainly wouldn’t have the PSSM Type 2 biopsy done - expensive, unpleasant for your horse, some risks, can produce both false positives and false negatives, and could never answer whether there is or is not a genetic link because it does not test genetics.
A vet nurse at Liverpool posted on here that the uni veterinary faculty have been researching familial links and PSSM2, will try to find that for you, because asking for a referral there might resolve what you are dealing with.
Plus, another poster discussing detailed muscle issues and selenium deficiencies, most interesting and possibly highly relevant.
Vitamin E is sensible, keeping the horse a lot warmer than would usually be the case, and keeping the horse ‘moving’ as much as possible.
Inactivity, getting chilled, are about the worst. Good luck, PSSM is a tragedy.
Thank you. The overrugging is the thing I think I’ll struggle with because I’m so wired to be very careful not to overrug. I know every horse is different but what sort of weight rug should I be putting on him in this temperature?

In terms of keeping him moving, obviously more difficult when they’re in over night, would people suggest light exercise every day?
 

paddy555

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Thank you. The overrugging is the thing I think I’ll struggle with because I’m so wired to be very careful not to overrug. I know every horse is different but what sort of weight rug should I be putting on him in this temperature?

In terms of keeping him moving, obviously more difficult when they’re in over night, would people suggest light exercise every day?
400g for the rug, try and split the vit E of 10000iu into a morning and an eve. dose if you can. Vit E is very expensive, presumably you will get either FP or PE powder. If so I would put it into a very small amount of soaked feed and hand feed. That way you will know that every tiny bit has gone down.

I would also blood test and add on vit E and selenium. If you are going to I would blood test prior to trialling vit E. Daily exercise yes but I would stick to leading or long reining at a walk until the bloods came back just in case they show anything interesting and obviously the PSSM1 hair test which you can do yourself (doesn't need a vet)
 

Hormonal Filly

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Oh no, but well done on being so 'on it' with thinking there could be a reason. A good friend has a lovely Connie, sadly diagnosed with PSSM2 by muscle biopsy and being very lethargic under saddle was his main symptom. One day he could be great, forward and another very lazy. My Welsh D was diagnosed with a muscle myopathy years ago.

I agree with @paddy555 I'd blood test, as you can his liver as well (I've experienced lethargy which was due to liver damage) Is he a warm horse? They do like to be rugged up more than other horses as they feel the cold. Also, was it natural Vit E you bought?
 

J_sarahd

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Oh no, but well done on being so 'on it' with thinking there could be a reason. A good friend has a lovely Connie, sadly diagnosed with PSSM2 by muscle biopsy and being very lethargic under saddle was his main symptom. One day he could be great, forward and another very lazy. My Welsh D was diagnosed with a muscle myopathy years ago.

I agree with @paddy555 I'd blood test, as you can his liver as well (I've experienced lethargy which was due to liver damage) Is he a warm horse? They do like to be rugged up more than other horses as they feel the cold. Also, was it natural Vit E you bought?
People at the yard definitely think I’m either a) some magic person who can speak to horses or b) a massive pony patter but I always say to my friends, I’d rather over think it and it be nothing than just laugh it off, blame it on his breeding/age/colour/sex and it actually be a problem. I know he is still young and very green, but it feels like more than that.

That sounds so much like Shadow. Some days he will come out and we will have a nice trot, accurate canter transitions, nice energetic walk and then some days he will just feel like everything is so much effort. (He’s never rude with it and always, always tries but I can feel that it’s more than just greenness/lack of fitness). I keep a record of my sessions and how he’s been (another thing I’ve learnt from having Nova!) and it does coincide mostly with a day off beforehand.

I’d say he is an average horse - he’s been out the past few days in a 100g no neck and been okay temperature wise. I swapped to a 150g with a neck last night following my research. I will layer them and see if that makes a difference - a fellow livery offered to sell me her 400g so I might see if she still has it. I’m just so not used to overrugging, having had a fat sports cob and then Nova who was quite warm for a TB! And annoyingly none of Nova’s rugs will fit him - they’re 6”3 and he’s 5”9!
 

J_sarahd

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Thing is, it's never over rugging if the horse needs it. PSSM horses may never actually look cold, but they do a lot better when they are kept properly cosy and warm. Don't forget exercise blankets as well, especially if you're doing in hand/slow work with him.
You’re right - I think it’s just overrugging in comparison to the “norm”. Exercise rugs is something I’d completely not even thought about! Usually wear one when it’s bitter but will be mindful of using it during our slower work.
 

SEL

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I'm sorry to read this. I've had two with type 1 and they were both very. very different. I also have a native with some sort of suspected myopathy (bloods indicated when she was feeling 'off' in winter) so I feel like it has become my specialist subject.

Vets are generally not that knowledgeable unless they've had clients where they've had to get involved. The one who came out to see my Appy said they were told at university that most horses who carry the gene(s) show no symptoms. That isn't my experience at all - the symptoms are there they just aren't as blindingly obvious as lameness etc.

I'm currently giving all 3 of my horses vitamin E supplementation although I have to be careful with the younger cob as it can send him a bit bonkers. He only gets it if I'm not riding the next day!

Vitamin E is the best place to start especially at this time of the year and hopefully you'll find that makes him feel a lot perkier
 

J_sarahd

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I'm sorry to read this. I've had two with type 1 and they were both very. very different. I also have a native with some sort of suspected myopathy (bloods indicated when she was feeling 'off' in winter) so I feel like it has become my specialist subject.

Vets are generally not that knowledgeable unless they've had clients where they've had to get involved. The one who came out to see my Appy said they were told at university that most horses who carry the gene(s) show no symptoms. That isn't my experience at all - the symptoms are there they just aren't as blindingly obvious as lameness etc.

I'm currently giving all 3 of my horses vitamin E supplementation although I have to be careful with the younger cob as it can send him a bit bonkers. He only gets it if I'm not riding the next day!

Vitamin E is the best place to start especially at this time of the year and hopefully you'll find that makes him feel a lot perkier
Thank you - I was going to message you actually as I know you’ve got a lot of experience with PSSM so I’m glad you’ve stumbled across this thread.

I think that’s the problem - he’s not OBVIOUSLY got anything wrong with him and it could all just be passed off as his age or temperament.
 

Fieldlife

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Thank you - I was going to message you actually as I know you’ve got a lot of experience with PSSM so I’m glad you’ve stumbled across this thread.

I think that’s the problem - he’s not OBVIOUSLY got anything wrong with him and it could all just be passed off as his age or temperament.
You can try a high dose of vitamin E, and upping the warmth for a couple of months and see if helps.
If no change, I would run a blood profile as next step, just to check not a low grade virus / something else going on.
 

SEL

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Thank you - I was going to message you actually as I know you’ve got a lot of experience with PSSM so I’m glad you’ve stumbled across this thread.

I think that’s the problem - he’s not OBVIOUSLY got anything wrong with him and it could all just be passed off as his age or temperament.
My Appy looks lame all round if she's asked to trot before she's warmed up and I have to warn vets to look the other way otherwise they'd be throwing every diagnostic tool in the book at her. The native just goes from being very jolly to flat as anything if she's not happy. I can see why vets struggle but I wish they'd at least consider pssm.

Connies are usually type 2 (& that's from biopsies prior to the MIM/type 2 genetic tests). I'm pretty sure there is a FB page for them somewhere.

If the vitamin E doesn't make a difference I've also seen horses respond really well to a hike in protein. I've been using Forage Plus topline supplement for my little native and she's gone horribly flat since I ran out. She's got something muscle related which shows up in bloods but with vitamin E & protein does fine.
 
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