shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
A few years ago now, but they used to have horses at Huntingdon life sciences for experimental testing. Some of the horses were re-homed locally.
Talk to me about the blood bank.
- Thread starter poiuytrewq
- Start date
saddlesore
Well-Known Member
I’ve seen two sent there. Safe to say I would never send one having seen them 
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I don't find it all all distasteful, I just feel people need to really throughly understand that the big blood banks are not some lovely, caring form of free retirement livery.
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Gamebird
Well-Known Member
I have been to one, so can answer some questions about the facility I visited.
You sign your horse over to them. You will never see or hear from it again.
Horses are kept in herds. They like the horses to be settled so will spend some time moving horses around until they are settled in their group. They are in large fields (where I went) with lots of natural shelter etc. They are brought in (herded in with quad bikes) fortnightly and given a feed, half will have blood taken then, and the other half on alternate fortnights, so every other time they are brought in is just for a feed. Any horse with an issue needing treating eg. foot abscess could be brought in and stay in a bedded yard, but would always be brought with a companion. Teeth, vaccs and feet are done regularly.
Yes, they are kept like farm animals, but I spent some time thinking about this and to be perfectly honest I feel that the welfare of a horse (when you factor in the things horses actually need) in that situation is a lot higher than that of a lot of horses privately owned. So many 'owned' horses have tiny individual paddocks, no shelter, inappropriate diets, are ridden (let's not pretend that horses were ever designed or intended to be ridden), are handled and managed poorly, have disease caused by human actions, and actually don't have a lot of their basic welfare needs met, however well-intentioned their owners are. I know mine don't (small paddocks, individual turnout, mud, mud, mud). So to keep horses in huge multi-acre fields with natural features and shelter, in curated herds, without hard feed, with their basic healthcare needs met, managed by professional and not subject to any form of riding or training - for me that comes up trumps welfare-wise.
The horses I saw were in good, but not obese, body condition. I did not notice any lame horses. I suspect the lifestyle (constantly moving, unridden, not overweight) means that clinical signs of arthritis are much lower than in the general horse population. If a horse got to the point where it was not pasture sound then yes, it would be shot. However that is not a welfare issue. Any how many lame horses are there standing around in fields elsewhere? I see it every day. The manager I spoke to said that horses regularly get to 30 years old kept under these conditions.
As a vet I was very happy with the welfare and management practices - much happier than those at a lot of livery yards I see. My comments however only hold for the facility I visited. And I won't be sharing which it is, so don't ask!
You sign your horse over to them. You will never see or hear from it again.
Horses are kept in herds. They like the horses to be settled so will spend some time moving horses around until they are settled in their group. They are in large fields (where I went) with lots of natural shelter etc. They are brought in (herded in with quad bikes) fortnightly and given a feed, half will have blood taken then, and the other half on alternate fortnights, so every other time they are brought in is just for a feed. Any horse with an issue needing treating eg. foot abscess could be brought in and stay in a bedded yard, but would always be brought with a companion. Teeth, vaccs and feet are done regularly.
Yes, they are kept like farm animals, but I spent some time thinking about this and to be perfectly honest I feel that the welfare of a horse (when you factor in the things horses actually need) in that situation is a lot higher than that of a lot of horses privately owned. So many 'owned' horses have tiny individual paddocks, no shelter, inappropriate diets, are ridden (let's not pretend that horses were ever designed or intended to be ridden), are handled and managed poorly, have disease caused by human actions, and actually don't have a lot of their basic welfare needs met, however well-intentioned their owners are. I know mine don't (small paddocks, individual turnout, mud, mud, mud). So to keep horses in huge multi-acre fields with natural features and shelter, in curated herds, without hard feed, with their basic healthcare needs met, managed by professional and not subject to any form of riding or training - for me that comes up trumps welfare-wise.
The horses I saw were in good, but not obese, body condition. I did not notice any lame horses. I suspect the lifestyle (constantly moving, unridden, not overweight) means that clinical signs of arthritis are much lower than in the general horse population. If a horse got to the point where it was not pasture sound then yes, it would be shot. However that is not a welfare issue. Any how many lame horses are there standing around in fields elsewhere? I see it every day. The manager I spoke to said that horses regularly get to 30 years old kept under these conditions.
As a vet I was very happy with the welfare and management practices - much happier than those at a lot of livery yards I see. My comments however only hold for the facility I visited. And I won't be sharing which it is, so don't ask!
bonny
Well-Known Member
That’s one of the problems with blood banks, the secrecy, it must be one of very few things that you can’t find out anything by googling and the whole you can never visit or hear about your horse again is very off putting.
why can’t you say which blood bank you know about ?
meleeka
Well-Known Member
The not knowing would be worse than pts for me. The horse won’t care if it lives or dies, or if it has a purpose, so I think the right decision is usually to pts if you can’t/don’t want to keep a horse that isn’t useful. That’s the only way to be sure of the horses future.
A friend gifted her horse to a charity. She was lucky they took him, as a favour to someone they knew. The wondering what happened to him has been more traumatic than if she’d just put on her brave pants and had him pts I think. Every few months she talks about him and wonders if he’s still there (I think she’s scared to ask and I’m not sure they’d even reply if she asked, since ownership was signed over). Shes spent at least 8 years studying their FB photos to see if she can spot him.
A friend gifted her horse to a charity. She was lucky they took him, as a favour to someone they knew. The wondering what happened to him has been more traumatic than if she’d just put on her brave pants and had him pts I think. Every few months she talks about him and wonders if he’s still there (I think she’s scared to ask and I’m not sure they’d even reply if she asked, since ownership was signed over). Shes spent at least 8 years studying their FB photos to see if she can spot him.
Gamebird
Well-Known Member
I don't think there is any particular motive or attempt to keep things secret. I was there for professional reasons, and I have a duty of confidentiality to them, the same as I would not tell you which show-jumpers or racehorse trainers I am visiting today. The facility was in England, but I would not be comfortable saying any more than that.
I think that if you are not the sort of person that can wave goodbye to a horse, then don't do it. I would not choose it for a beloved horse that I had owned for 15 years, but then I would also never consider selling that horse. I would happily pick it for a horse that I didn't have such a strong attachment to. If it's going to screw your head up, or if you're the sort of person that can't sleep without monthly updates then you need to look at retirement livery.
Gamebird
Well-Known Member
This is the crux of the matter - it is not your horse. You have signed it over to them. You have no more right to visit it or influence what happens to it than when you sell an animal.
meleeka
Well-Known Member
So why not just pts if you’ve got no attachment? This is not a question to you specifically, but I don’t get why anyone thinks it’s a solution to a problem. Cost? Obviously even shooting costs money these days. Or is it that it makes people feel better that they’ve sent the horse off to live a nice life (but they obviously won’t know for sure if that’s the case)?
twiggy2
Well-Known Member
Why would you put a horse to sleep that could live what is for many horses an idyllic lifestyle?
Annagain
Well-Known Member
Thid isn't something I've ever really thought about before but in my nearly 40 years of involvement with horses, I've only ever known one need a transfusion. She was hit by a stolen car and lost so much blood the fire brigade took nearly two hours to wash the road clean. She was a livery at the riding school I went to and they took blood from the two biggest horses there for her. They had a couple of weeks of work afterwards. She made a ful recovery in time but always moved slightly weirdly due to the scar tissue in her hind quarters. I remember seeing a shot of her on the local news when the headlines came up (it happened midweek and I only went at weekends so didn't know it had happened) and shouting "that's xxxxx!". Dad told me not to be ridiculous, there was no way I could recognise a horse from a single shot but 30 seconds later I was proved right!There's an article here about the RVC. At the time it was written, one horse had come in as a 5 year old and at 25 was still there. Another that became needle shy was rehomed as a companion.
Horses' blood can only be stored for month which is why they use horses when they need it however it's very rare for horses to need transfusions so they don't get called on that often
Behind the Scenes With Blood Donor Horses
Learn how these "heroes" of the equine veterinary industry step up to save other horses' lives.thehorse.com
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I understand that blood banks mostly sell plasma. Does anyone know what's done with it? PRP is made from the horse's own plasma, so I don't think it's that.
meleeka
Well-Known Member
Presumably it’s got either physical, or mental issues which occurred while in the current owners care.
bonny
Well-Known Member
It used to be used for human products but as far as I know the need for it has dropped a lot from what it used to be and blood banks prefer to use sheep now.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Because you've no way of knowing if your horse is finding it idyllic or not and no way of stopping it if you believe it isn't.
I've heard in the past how an owner could see her horse getting thinner in a field where it was just about visible from the road. That would be agonising for anyone incapable of walking away and forgetting about the horse, which is most of us.
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criso
Coming over here & taking your jobs since 1900
It was explained in the article I linked to.
It's what vets give instead of a full transfusion for circulatory shock. If that doesn't work they go for blood. Plasma keeps for longer so is worth storing.
You have to register to read the full article so here is some of the relevant bit.
Circulatory shock is rapidly fatal,” Slater said. “If a horse doesn’t have enough circulating blood volume then he can’t service his tissues correctly—bringing them nutrients and removing their waste. So the tissues die, and, ultimately, the horse dies.”
Circulatory shock is common in cases of severe colic and metabolic insults (i.e., when a horse breaks into the feed room and consumes large quantities of concentrated feeds). It can also happen with colitis-associated severe diarrhea, he said. In these cases, veterinarians usually administer intravenous fluids as an initial strategy. If that doesn’t work, the horse might need the particular proteins found in blood plasma that help “strengthen” the blood and stop water from leaking out through vessel walls.
But sometimes, even blood plasma isn’t enough, Slater said. In those cases, the horses need fresh, whole blood immediately from a donor. That’s when veterinarians at the RVC will go to the field and bring in Miller, Darcy, Sonny, or Freddy for an emergency collection.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
We a lot of whole horse (but more sheep) blood to grow bacteria
Serum mostly used for cell culture, we mostly use fetal calf but that has to be improved from Oz/NZ to be guaranteed TSE free depending on what you are doing
Some use for immunoassays
AnShanDan
Well-Known Member
A friend of mine sent her horse to one a few years ago. she actually knew someone involved in the farm, so had knowledge of the set up. As far as I can remember it was very much like gamebird has said, the horses were well cared for and often kept for many years. They don't get rugged up so that might be an issue for some horses, my friend's horse was an easy going, hairy cob and I'm sure he'd have been fine. They did come into barns in winter too.
Not sure I'd ever do it, I think, as said above it's fine if you can disconnect from the horse but I find that hard, I love to keep in touch with any I've sold.
Not sure I'd ever do it, I think, as said above it's fine if you can disconnect from the horse but I find that hard, I love to keep in touch with any I've sold.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Coming into barns is one of the things I don't like. People don't muck barns out, they deep bed them and spread more clean straw on top. That's actually really difficult to move around in and there will be little space per horse to move around properly.
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Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Because you do not know whether the horse is indeed living an idyllic lifestyle or not. If it isn’t, and there is a lot of anecdotal evidence that many are not, then as it is no longer your horse you are powerless to intervene.
I wouldn't be prepared to gamble with my horse’s future just in order to assuage my conscience that I was giving it a happy retirement. If I had first hand knowledge from a trusted party that a particular blood bank looked after their horses properly, then that would be different.
Birker2020
Well-Known Member
If anyone is interested I can see if I can find details. I bottled out as I was able to send Lari to retirement livery instead but not because I didn't like the blood bank, but simply because I wasn't happy about never seeing him again, and now he's at retirement I see him twice weekly.
The man who operates the yard is called David Tombs. I can dig out his number - if people need it please PM me.
The man who operates the yard is called David Tombs. I can dig out his number - if people need it please PM me.
- I know about six or seven people who have sent theirs there over the years including three horses from one owner. My friends horse went, she turned him out with one other who'd been there sometime to get him used to the set up, heads down within seconds grazing, she said all you could see across the fields were horses, could have heard a pin drop. She'd have been the first to turn around and go home with her horse had she not liked the setup.
- The horses need to be roughed off, so no rugs, shoes off, no hard feed, etc which can be done over a few months.
- The company is this company https://www.tcsbiosciences.co.uk/contact_us.php
- You can see part of their setup on one of the videos. h
- The horses aren't 'forced' into anything, they come in to give blood of their own free will, they may need a bit of persuasion as first but it can take up to twelve months for them to get used to the set up and what they are required to do. But they are eager to come in to give blood as they receive a token feed.
- My farrier that I used prior to Lari going to retirement was invited for an interview there many years ago when he was asked if he wanted the contract. He declined as he had a young family at the time so was too far to travel on a daily basis but he told me it was a lovely place, very clean and tidy and the horses were not skeletal hat racks despite what people might allude to on this forum.
- They live in big herds which are housed in their respective herd during Oct to April in big indoor barns on straw with ad lib hay and turned out into large fields (which you can see on google earth) from May to Sept.
- They have their feet attended and wormers given, etc. It is in TCS's best interests to look after the animals in their care as they supply the blood and it has to be a good quality blood.
- If the animal needs to be pts then it is done there and then on the property - this came out of David's mouth himself. Not sent to a slaughterhouse!
- They have a twice yearly intake, April and October I believe.
- You are welcome to visit the place prior to your horse arriving but not allowed subsequent visits, its a biosecure site so having people traipsing through is not good.
- Blood from donor animals serves as a vital role as a nutritional supplement and a diagnostic indicator in media and test systems used for clinical diagnoses. Its not used to give to other animals as in blood transfusion services.
- The animals have to be stress free and the blood free from any drugs.
- You can see from the prices how valuable the blood is so the horses are well looked after, have their immediate needs, water, shelter, hay/grass, footcare and worming taken care of as it is in TCS's best interests to look after the animals in the herd.
- The animals have the benefit of living their best lives as all horses should, with turnout in herds with shelter.
- For more than 50 years TCS has specialised in donor animal blood products, and has attained ever-higher standards of quality through continuous improvement of our processes. Quality assurance extends, via our supplier, Preston Farms, from animal husbandry through collection to processing, QC and packaging.
- They also have other animals, sheep, rabitts, guinea pigs not that those are allowed to free range.
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Birker2020
Well-Known Member
But from who exactly??
I know its not for everyone but how about actually ringing up the guy and speaking to him.
I feel like I might just ring up Horse and Rider magazine, or Horse and Hound magazine and see if he is willing to arrange an interview with them to discuss all this anecdotal evidence.
I'm surprised its not been done before now to be quite honest.
Maybe he would be happy to set the record straight.
Birker2020
Well-Known Member
YCBM how do you actually know this????
I'm really sorry but its this kind of supposition that causes people who are looking at placing a four year old with its whole life in front of it to be pts instead.
For those that have sent horses there I think reading all this codswallop is really unfair and cruel especially as it doesn't bear any resemblance to the truth.
How about asking those that are in the know like me, SC or the bloke himself!
Birker2020
Well-Known Member
Wagtails comments from an old thread about it.
forums.horseandhound.co.uk
I walked around the place myself and I have never seen happier horses in my life. They were all groomed, shiny and even had their tails brushed and trimmed. I prefer to rely on my own first hand experience of the place and can hand on heart say that those horses have a fantastic and stress free life.
Horse blood farms?
Wondered if anyone had heard about this... It sounds ghastly! :( Info copied from an Avaaz petition someone just sent me (https://secure.avaaz.org/campaign/en/horse_blood_loc/?slideshow): The cruel trade with pregnant mare blood (Animals' Angels USA)...
forums.horseandhound.co.uk
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Ring up a person who I don’t know, with no one I trust who would vouch for him, and take his word that the blood bank he runs cares properly for the horses?
I don’t think so.
Not suggesting that he is not genuine, but of course he is going to say that the horses are well cared for, whether they are or not.
meleeka
Well-Known Member
There is is also nothing wrong in putting to sleep a 4 year horse if he’s only got an uncertain future, with health issues to look forward to.
onemoretime
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that Gamebird. Can I just ask you ask you are a vet, does horses blood have different groups like human blood does or is it all one type? Thanks
SEL
Well-Known Member
Can I ask why? I looked into it some years ago for a RS horse who wasn't suitable for ridden work but was otherwise healthy. I didn't get bad vibes but a companion home was found so never visitedI’ve seen two sent there. Safe to say I would never send one having seen them
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Yes they do have different blood types
Widgeon
Well-Known Member
Wagtails comments from an old thread about it.
Horse blood farms?
Wondered if anyone had heard about this... It sounds ghastly! :( Info copied from an Avaaz petition someone just sent me (https://secure.avaaz.org/campaign/en/horse_blood_loc/?slideshow): The cruel trade with pregnant mare blood (Animals' Angels USA)...
Just for the sake of clarity for anyone reading this thread in the future, the links in the original post on that thread (above) are relating mainly to the farming of pregnant mares, which is not what UK blood banks do, and none of the links relate to the UK.