Talking about stallion grading

[JanetGeorge]

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Sorry you misunderstood my question. It was not 'How do people get on the panel?' but 'Who selects what person should go where to grade and when?'

Just interested as it seems such a political hot potatoe with the conflicting views on type.

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Ah - sorry. I think it's a case of who didn't do it last year and who we can persuade to do it THIS year - certainly as far as the UK inspectors are concerned. The IHB/IDHS(Ireland) picks the Irish inspector (or 2 -as there are two teams doing grading each year) They start at the Breed Show and one team goes north - and the other south - takes 3-4 days - as at many venues there are only 2-3 mares, just a lot of travelling.

 

[Ciss]

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Now you are worrying me, Ciss; I've always found your posts enlightening & fair-minded across a range of breeds and types; yet you clearly see the quality in this stallion and yet seem to be saying that as he's good, he can't be ID bred.?

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Oh dear, I am sorry that this appears to be the case, that is not what I am about at all so perhaps the fact that this has appeared to turn (not at my behest) into an anti ID thread is partly becuase I have not explained what my cirteria in assessing the suitability of any stallion (regardless of breed) to be used as a sire of top class (as distinct from club level / all round) progeny in any discipline.

I have always believed (and I had hoped that I had made it clear in the past) that in order to be successful as a discipline-specific sire at a good level the stallion concerned must have both the genotype (generations of proven ancesters that have been there, done that, worn the T shirt or have produced progeny that have) and the phenotype (showing external qualities of conformation, paces, temperament and soundness). Stallions that come from breeds that do not ahve a proven and wide spread success in the discipline have a problem right from the beginning for me -- as do stallions that come from bloodlines that do not show talent in the specific discipline even if the breed itself has high WBFSH rankings in it -- as nothing comes from nothing and it is a huge gamble for any mare owner to take to use a stallion just based on one of these aspects (and particularly the phenotype one).

Strangely in the past, when stallions rarely competed themselves, this was not an issue. They did their performance test, the mare owners looked at the scores -- and perhaps a little at how the stallions peformed under saddle in later years in special stallion shows (more to see how they had matured on, remained sound and accepted more demanding work than to see who was best in competition conditions) -- and above all consulted their BLUPs based on progeny results and then made their breeding decisions. In this way I suppose they were a little like the racing industry is today -- do what is necessary then retire to stud and let your progeny show how good you really are -- and the complexities of trying to assess the variables involved in assessing competing stallions against each other at higher levels were not involved.

Now, however, we have a much more complex scenario with probably a majority of stallions having to compete to keep themselves in the public eye at least at the beginning of their careers. Unfortunately, however, just becuase a stallion is a successful competition horse it does not mean that he has the genotype to become a successful sire of competition horses at a higher level, however good his performance is (the progeny assessment results of Lingh alone prove that <sigh&gt and some stalion owners also use ridden performance success as a way of trying to massage the mare owners into irgnoring some pretty horrendous conformational defects (which often sadly turn out to be inheritable anyway and so make a bad situation worse). And before anyone jumps gleefully in to point out that these faults must also have been in the genes of the successful stallion too and therefore one should not set too much store by genotype, I would point out that probably these stallions graded in spite of the fault and were allowed covering permission whilts being required to compete in order to allow the graders a longer time to asses how much it affected them. Meanwhile the really savvy mare owners (especially those concerned with selling foals at good prices and as potential stallions) will have steered clear of using that stallion (however successful he was under saddle) just becuase they suspected that the hereditary problem would persist.

In all this complexity chosing to use a young stallion with a pedigree that contains no proven talent in a specific sport, however successful he may be himself, is not to my mind a good idea as he could well be a one-off and if it is your mare(s) that prove that then it is a very expensive error to have made. BTW, just as an example on the thread about cloning it was not by accident that I did not chose Desert Orchid. I thought he was a wonderful athletic horse with great power and superb paces (and amazing naturally uphill transitions) but it is generall acknowledged that his close family were pretty much below average and he was a total one-off. IOW, if he had been kept a stallion I doubt wether he would have thrown anything even half as good as he was himself.

So to explain myself, I am not prejudiced for or against any breed. I do believe that when you breed you should always select the best possible stallion for your mare to achieve the aims you set yourself and that the stallion must be graded/licenced according to the criteria set by the studbook concerned, have a full pedigree with ancestors that have proven achievement in what you are breeding for (or who have produced progeny that have performed accordingly) . Breeding is enough of a lottery as it is without adding in any hidden complications that an inappropriate/unproven pedigree can bring with it, especially in a country where, sadly, a notable percentage of mares have unproven pedigrees and performance themselves.

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But when someone does manage to both have their cake & eat it in other breeds - the producers of Stravinsky for example- you have no difficulty giving them credit- so why not admit that it can happen in this case too?

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Sorry, but don't quite understand the point here. Not only is there a very long tradition of grading in high-class race-tested TBs into warmblood studbooks (so his phenotype is certainly OK) he has also competed himself up to PSG level and above and is still sound and correct and working well under saddle at the age of 20 as those who had the pleasure of seeing him at Burghley a couple of weeks ago will testify (so he certainly has the phenotype too).

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Despite the incomplete information on the breeding websites (and I think sometimes wrong information- there is some confusion with the Gamekeeper who was a son of Welton Gameful, I think) the horses pedigree is detailed by the people who know it best on the link previously given. Why is there a problem with this?

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Only that becuase it would appear that neither his sire and possibly his grandsire and some of his dam's pedigree were not registered with a studbook that could record and verify his breeding it is difficult to prove independently. I am sure that his owners are correct in what they say (after all they bred him) but I am afraid that in most WBFSH studbooks he would not be eligible for grading as a stallion (or even in a studbook above Basic for mares if he was one) *however good he was* precisely becuase his genotype is unproven by independent means, again because of the extra gamble (above what is normally involved in breeding) that is inherent when both factors are not fully in place.

 

[TomReed]

Volatis, you wrote: "the Trakehners are becoming increasingly important".

Please note the verb tense you use. Do you believe that the Trakenhner studbook did not go through (note my verb tense) a patch where they lost a lot of influence in both sport and breeding because so many breeders (and studbook officials) chose type over athleticism?

And I am not talking about producing Bundeschampionate winners. I am talking about playing an important role in the genetics of OTHER studbooks and producing Trakehners that are competing internationally in all three disciplines.

I believe they lost their way and are trying to get the sport focus back. But it is a long road back to regaining athleticism, particularly for an almost-closed studbook.

 

[volatis]

I am not denying that at all Tom, they did go through a phase where type and beauty played too important a role over function and sport. But the modern Trakehner and modern Trakehner breeders are doing a bloody good job of recapturing the success of the breed pre War. I think success in the Bundeschampionate is bloody good personally. And I can cite a few Trakehners that are influential at the top end of the sport too, think Gribaldi, who the mighty KWPN use so extensively, or that Consul was damsire of one of the German team horses Bonaparte, or Windfall, an Olympic competitor in eventing. I admit show jumping is not the strongest area for the breed, compared to the likes of Holstein, but Abdullah did pretty well at a time the breed was still trying to pull itself together from the 'pretty' phase.
Even PS has had to admit there is a place for Trakehners now, both in other studbooks and in their own right - and he used to be one of their fiercest critics

 

[TomReed]

You think they have come back and recaptured their former glory; I think they still have a long way to go. In either case the point remains that studbooks that begin to emphasize type over athleticism create serious problems for themselves that take a long time to solve.

By the way, I am a member of the Trakehner Verband, I own a Trakehner dressage mare, I co-bred a Trakehner-registered foal and I bred two other foals using Trakehner sires: I am not anti-Trakehner. And I had a (Holsteiner) stallion compete in the showjumping final in the Bundeschampionate so I understand what needs to be done and not done to do well at Warendorf.

 

[Tharg]

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You have FANTASTIC taste in Irish Draughts IMHO - would you like to join the Inspection panel!

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Why thank you, I am partial to brown envelopes...

 

[volatis]

I dont think they are back to their former glory, no, they had apretty impressive Olympic record that now the Dutch and Hanoverians have claimed. But I think they have made serious progress in recent times and are far more influential again now than they have been for some time, and I hope it will continue.

 

[htobago]

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I am not denying that at all Tom, they did go through a phase where type and beauty played too important a role over function and sport.

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Fascinating...

A lot of people feel that the same thing has happened with Arab breeding - that there is far too much emphasis on type and beauty, at the expense of good conformation and athletic ability. And I have to admit that when I was colt-shopping 2 years ago, it took me a long time to find one that had both 'exotic' type AND athletic conformation/action!

What upset me most during this search was the breeders I met (fortunately only a small minority) who used the term 'riding horse' as an insult - to describe horses they did not consider to be pretty/typey enough for the in-hand show ring!

I'm sure the Trakehner breeders' phase of over-emphasis on type and beauty never went to quite this ludicrous extreme!

 

[stolensilver]

This is slightly late but yes, of course I know what x, ox and xx mean in a pedigree. The point was that assuming x meant anglo arab in the pedigree of an IDSH was so obviously wrong (and probably tongue in cheek) I didn't think I needed to explain any further beyond the reminder about roman numerals.

Regarding Trakehners earlier this year I went shopping for a potential dressage horse. I have no favourite breeds or bloodlines. A good horse is a good horse. I went to lots and lots of studs looking at youngsters and only saw one filly that stood out. She happens to be a Trakehner! LOL! I'll let you know what they're like at dressage in about 6 years time.