Kat
Well-Known Member
Debbie Glennon
TB bad feet any improvement - pics? Advice?
- Thread starter L&B
- Start date
sonjafoers
Well-Known Member
OP I really feel for you.
I have 7/8ths tb who has poor front limb conformation and as a result terrible feet - or I should say HAD terrible feet. They weren't quite as bad as yours but pretty much so and she suffered form almost constant abcesses which didn't help her. I had put faith in my farrier and unfortunately he had also let the feet run away like yours and I was left to pick up the pieces.
I found a new farrier and working with him and my vet we tried the bf route but she was absolutely crippled. I then called in a barefoot specialist from another county (so not cheap ) who told me that not every horse can cope with bf and she is one that can't. Please no comments from those that advocate bf because I'm not replying to get into the bf discussion, I'm just relaying my experiences.
My new farrier then shod her with new balance type shoes initially and gel pads and with 4 weekly visits the feet slowly began to improve. From memory it was about 3 months before I could gently ride her and within a year she had new shaped feet with a decent heel. She is now shod 6 weekly with normal shoes, no gel and is so much sounder than she has ever been.
It's not cheap and it's not for everyone but it's another option for you and your farrier to consider.
Good luck with yours.
I have 7/8ths tb who has poor front limb conformation and as a result terrible feet - or I should say HAD terrible feet. They weren't quite as bad as yours but pretty much so and she suffered form almost constant abcesses which didn't help her. I had put faith in my farrier and unfortunately he had also let the feet run away like yours and I was left to pick up the pieces.
I found a new farrier and working with him and my vet we tried the bf route but she was absolutely crippled. I then called in a barefoot specialist from another county (so not cheap ) who told me that not every horse can cope with bf and she is one that can't. Please no comments from those that advocate bf because I'm not replying to get into the bf discussion, I'm just relaying my experiences.
My new farrier then shod her with new balance type shoes initially and gel pads and with 4 weekly visits the feet slowly began to improve. From memory it was about 3 months before I could gently ride her and within a year she had new shaped feet with a decent heel. She is now shod 6 weekly with normal shoes, no gel and is so much sounder than she has ever been.
It's not cheap and it's not for everyone but it's another option for you and your farrier to consider.
Good luck with yours.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
S - I have always been told that it is much harder to build up heel with shoes on. Well done to your new Farrier for doing that.
L&B
Well-Known Member
Thankyou for all your sympathy those who have shown it. Believe me when I say its gone a long way. I am beside myself, especially seeing him this afternoon when the farrier came and took his other front glued shoe off. I put him in his boots to go for a walk immediately and he was so sore 
I take what you are saying Sonja about certain horses just not being able to cope... and I don't know if it'll be the same for my boy.
I have committed to two - four weeks barefoot in stable, out with boots then I will reassess (unless of course it goes really wrong)... Any thoughts people? Will he become anymore comfy in his boots sooner rather than later? Xx
I take what you are saying Sonja about certain horses just not being able to cope... and I don't know if it'll be the same for my boy.
I have committed to two - four weeks barefoot in stable, out with boots then I will reassess (unless of course it goes really wrong)... Any thoughts people? Will he become anymore comfy in his boots sooner rather than later? Xx
magicmoose
Well-Known Member
Quick question - do you have comfort pads in his boots?
L&B
Well-Known Member
I do.
mjcssjw2
Well-Known Member
l and b thats kind of where i am, except he is in field without boots, but goes too and from field in boots, just trying to get him off danilon! you have my sympathies, hope you find an answer, it really is most upsetting and depressing, i'm wondering if this will end in pts with me.
L&B
Well-Known Member
Likewise mjcssjw2, and the thought petrifies me and keeps me awake at night... I cannot bare to lose my best friend but I'm scared it will happen
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
RE setting a timeframe - it took my new farrier (plus me and the horse) a year and a half to undo the damage that had only taken months to do. I did talk to an equine podiatrist who scared the crap out of me. He thought that my mare should have recovered much quicker than that, however he did quite radical trims (took off so much hoof that the horses needed wraps) and the horses were very sore after he has trimmed and couldn't walk comfortably on smooth tarmac. The slowly, slowly approach kept my mare comfortable (apart from when she has an abscess) on most surfaces.
So I would be careful about letting anyone trim off too much hoof, it's better to get the horse comfortable and then do in-hand walks.
So I would be careful about letting anyone trim off too much hoof, it's better to get the horse comfortable and then do in-hand walks.
mjcssjw2
Well-Known Member
me as well! not happy days at all :-(
ester
Not slacking multitasking
L+B I just wanted to say I really feel for you.
F had underrun heels when we started but he was kinda the opposite of yours. We did get the heels looking better in bar shoes/trimming differently but he remained lame. Out of shoes the angle of his heel growth improved even more and I honestly think in shoes we built up horn but not the soft tissues he needed for soundness (and to correct the reverse rotation of his pedal bones).
I don't know if you are on livery or with own land? We have our own so were able to create a small pea gravel area but we never really needed it that much as F was comfy enough in the field (plus it was really wet last summer!).
F had underrun heels when we started but he was kinda the opposite of yours. We did get the heels looking better in bar shoes/trimming differently but he remained lame. Out of shoes the angle of his heel growth improved even more and I honestly think in shoes we built up horn but not the soft tissues he needed for soundness (and to correct the reverse rotation of his pedal bones).
I don't know if you are on livery or with own land? We have our own so were able to create a small pea gravel area but we never really needed it that much as F was comfy enough in the field (plus it was really wet last summer!).
Kat
Well-Known Member
Timescale wise mine did two weeks box rest on a deep shavings bed that covered the whole floor. That gave her time to adjust a bit to being bare, grow a bit of foot and get over the worst soreness. We then did two weeks of leading out on smooth concrete or the sand school for 15mins in boots, then we built up the time she spent in boots gradually but she didn't get proper field turnout just leading out and turnout on sand. After about 10wks I started riding in boots. She didn't go out in the field until she was sound without boots on the field and comfortable enough to walk down the track (avoiding the worst stony bits) we then built up turnout carefully putting her on sand if the ground was bad. I might have tried her in the field in boots for limited time if it hadn't been winter but I think you need to go more slowly and be patient to avoid him getting sore.
It was tough but my girl had her shoes off about 4wks before yours had his problems and we are now doing some of our hacking bare and all of our schooling and competing.
It was tough but my girl had her shoes off about 4wks before yours had his problems and we are now doing some of our hacking bare and all of our schooling and competing.
TwoStroke
Well-Known Member
If your horse is sore walking out, then it's best not to do that yet. Also check the thickness of your pads - make sure they're 12mm.
I would also suggest a spell - at least 3 days - treated as a laminitic: off grass completely and fed 12 hr soaked hay. If there is a marked improvement then you'll need a plan to reduce sugar intake long term.
It's a tough position to be in, but you clearly care about your horse and want the best for him, so for his sake you need to grit your teeth and do what ever it takes to get him comfy on his feet. Down the line when you have a horse with healthy hooves and a good long term prognosis you'll be very glad you did.
I would also suggest a spell - at least 3 days - treated as a laminitic: off grass completely and fed 12 hr soaked hay. If there is a marked improvement then you'll need a plan to reduce sugar intake long term.
It's a tough position to be in, but you clearly care about your horse and want the best for him, so for his sake you need to grit your teeth and do what ever it takes to get him comfy on his feet. Down the line when you have a horse with healthy hooves and a good long term prognosis you'll be very glad you did.
L&B
Well-Known Member
To update: my lad very foot sore still at day 2 in boots & pads. Lame in trot.
I queried with the vets my worries over his heel looking to be growing underneath him in comparison to before and this is the email I rceived back, have omitted names for obvious reasons & only posting for thoughts on the reply:
Hello
I have received the pictures. Dont panic! The change is good -the most recent is a foot that needs trimming - there is increased concavity to the sole and we have heel growth - which are both positive and means we have something to work with. This is not a backward step, just a sign that his hoof is starting to grow much better (probably due to all the good things that you are feeding him and changes made to diet/routine).
Originally we had so little growth of the walls, heels and foot at all in general that he was having to weight bear on his frog and sole , meaning he leans on his heels and crushes his foot. Giving him very weak and painful feet.
The situation now, with good growth would suggest that he can cope with increased frequency of trims now, which is good. He is now growing heel but what tends to happen is that the heel grows almost horizontally, so we have to keep taking it back, until it strengthens.
Best Wishes,
I queried with the vets my worries over his heel looking to be growing underneath him in comparison to before and this is the email I rceived back, have omitted names for obvious reasons & only posting for thoughts on the reply:
Hello
I have received the pictures. Dont panic! The change is good -the most recent is a foot that needs trimming - there is increased concavity to the sole and we have heel growth - which are both positive and means we have something to work with. This is not a backward step, just a sign that his hoof is starting to grow much better (probably due to all the good things that you are feeding him and changes made to diet/routine).
Originally we had so little growth of the walls, heels and foot at all in general that he was having to weight bear on his frog and sole , meaning he leans on his heels and crushes his foot. Giving him very weak and painful feet.
The situation now, with good growth would suggest that he can cope with increased frequency of trims now, which is good. He is now growing heel but what tends to happen is that the heel grows almost horizontally, so we have to keep taking it back, until it strengthens.
Best Wishes,
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
That's positive. 
L&B
Well-Known Member
Hmmm ... I thought so but not happy with the notion that the frog doesn't have to touch the floor... I thought that's what got blood to the feeties?
Anyone else?
Anyone else?
maccachic
Well-Known Member
If it was my horse I would be looking for a better trimmer.
My horse was similar to yours (there are pics in my album) I changed trimmers and the results have been brillant.
My horse was similar to yours (there are pics in my album) I changed trimmers and the results have been brillant.
L&B
Well-Known Member
I have new pics of his freshly trimmed hooves as if yday that I will put up tomorrow you may be interested to see... The above 'after' pics were after 4weeks in glued on aluminiums after having thrown one
L&B
Well-Known Member
Fresh trim taken yday.
TwoStroke
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry, but I can't agree with the vet at all, and it concerns me that the vet is not aware that the frog and sole ought to be weight baring.
Heels do not under run because a horse is bearing weight on its frogs and sole, they under run because of a lack of stimulation to the back of the foot. This happens when a horse ceases to land heel first, and can also happen when you have shoes on a horse with poorly connected hoof walls. The lack of wear and stimulation allows the heels to under run, in conjunction with the unrelenting pressure from the shoe.
It is not a good sign that the heels are under running further, and how anyone can say that it is is beyond me
- it will only worsen biomechanics and put more strain on your horse's tendons and ligaments. If the horse's soles were developing as the vet suggests, then the horse would not be so sore, unless there's low grade laminitis rumbling on.
OP have you given the horse a few days in on a deep bed, with no grass and only 12 hour soaked hay? A small fibre based feed with the Pro Hoof is also ok. It's important to rule out dietary sugars as a cause of soreness. You can give a bute whilst the horse is in, but don't bute and turn out, or the horse may run around and damage his hooves.
It really sounds like you need the help of someone who knows what they're talking about. I think someone recommended Debbie as a trimmer earlier? I would urge you to consider giving her a call.
Heels do not under run because a horse is bearing weight on its frogs and sole, they under run because of a lack of stimulation to the back of the foot. This happens when a horse ceases to land heel first, and can also happen when you have shoes on a horse with poorly connected hoof walls. The lack of wear and stimulation allows the heels to under run, in conjunction with the unrelenting pressure from the shoe.
It is not a good sign that the heels are under running further, and how anyone can say that it is is beyond me
- it will only worsen biomechanics and put more strain on your horse's tendons and ligaments. If the horse's soles were developing as the vet suggests, then the horse would not be so sore, unless there's low grade laminitis rumbling on.OP have you given the horse a few days in on a deep bed, with no grass and only 12 hour soaked hay? A small fibre based feed with the Pro Hoof is also ok. It's important to rule out dietary sugars as a cause of soreness. You can give a bute whilst the horse is in, but don't bute and turn out, or the horse may run around and damage his hooves.
It really sounds like you need the help of someone who knows what they're talking about. I think someone recommended Debbie as a trimmer earlier? I would urge you to consider giving her a call.
LucyPriory
Well-Known Member
TBH the solar view was a little too out of focus for me to be able to really see clearly what is going on.
The side view is also obscured (sorry not meaning to be negative) but I do seem to be seeing lots of rasping of outer hoof wall. If this is the case I'd be rather unhappy. It's a common approach to treating symptoms, gives an artifical 'improvement' but doesn't help fix cause.
My take on the vet comment is that they are looking for 'height' from the horn at the heel, when it should come from healthy development of the heel bulbs. It can be the expectation of heel height from horn that can lead to the initial underrunning in the first place.
The horn at the heels should be short, forming a well defined triangular shaped buttress. It is generally unwise to try to achieve this from a very underrun heel in one go as the horse can be left very sore, which means they won't use their heel which means it will underrun some more. Boots and appropriate pads well used can be helpful as they provide comfort for movement/exercise but can come off in between and that part seems to be pretty important in helping underrun heels.
I'm having a hard time seeing concavity in the soles, but that could be the picture or my age.
Soles need pressure and release not constant pressure and not no pressure at all. This is where boots with conformable pads may be better than shoes.
Your horse might be leaning on his heels - and this can be due to pain in the toe. Seen most often in horses with some sort of LGL.
I'd agree with twostroke. A few days on a comfortable conformable surface, off the grass with soaked hay may be a useful test. Doesn't have to be in a box, depending on your facilities.
The side view is also obscured (sorry not meaning to be negative) but I do seem to be seeing lots of rasping of outer hoof wall. If this is the case I'd be rather unhappy. It's a common approach to treating symptoms, gives an artifical 'improvement' but doesn't help fix cause.
My take on the vet comment is that they are looking for 'height' from the horn at the heel, when it should come from healthy development of the heel bulbs. It can be the expectation of heel height from horn that can lead to the initial underrunning in the first place.
The horn at the heels should be short, forming a well defined triangular shaped buttress. It is generally unwise to try to achieve this from a very underrun heel in one go as the horse can be left very sore, which means they won't use their heel which means it will underrun some more. Boots and appropriate pads well used can be helpful as they provide comfort for movement/exercise but can come off in between and that part seems to be pretty important in helping underrun heels.
I'm having a hard time seeing concavity in the soles, but that could be the picture or my age.
Soles need pressure and release not constant pressure and not no pressure at all. This is where boots with conformable pads may be better than shoes.
Your horse might be leaning on his heels - and this can be due to pain in the toe. Seen most often in horses with some sort of LGL.
I'd agree with twostroke. A few days on a comfortable conformable surface, off the grass with soaked hay may be a useful test. Doesn't have to be in a box, depending on your facilities.
unicorndreams
Well-Known Member
Re Lucy's observation - this is what my former farrier was trying to do with my mare and he made the same pronouncement at the OP's - horse wasn't growing any heel, crushed feet, not strong enough to support the horse's weight.
They are growing heel - its just running under the hoof! I can also recommend Debbie (she's helped several people near me and recently taken over with my TB mare) - she's very pragmatic and supportive.
I can't offer much advice re boots as couldn't get any to stay on my mare's hind feet but when I first took her shoes off it was at the end of a shoeing cycle (so 6wks of growth) and I then didn't bring her out of the field for 3 wks as the stoney track was too much for her to start with.
I understand how you must be feeling OP - ((((hugs)))) It's so hard seeing your horse struggling and just wanting to 'fix' them. BF isn't the answer for everyone and as it can be such hard work but I do think that a break from shoes is helpful if you can manage the comfort levels
L&B
Well-Known Member
Cannot find debbies details anywhere :l
ester
Not slacking multitasking
my geography is shocking but is it the debbie on this list?
http://www.uknhcp.org.uk/uknhcpqualifiedpractitioners.html
http://www.uknhcp.org.uk/uknhcpqualifiedpractitioners.html
L&B
Well-Known Member
Found her!
L&B
Well-Known Member
Oooo cheers ester posted same time I think, found her!! Thankyou.
L&B
Well-Known Member
My boy is still lame in trot in boots with his pads... Does anyone know why this might be? Or when it might stop? He's on one danilon per day split between two feeds. I ask because it's hurting me seeing him that way.
Also, I have contacted Debbie who was nothing but lovely and says she will come out and take a look at my boy (will get back to me with a date tomorrow).
Now I'm trying to draft an email to my vet to say that this is the way I'd like to go for now, unless proven otherwise, but I need her help (and I do, I like her loads & my boy thinks the world of her too) and her respect to support me in that. Can anyone think of anything to include? Why are vets so anti-boots?
Also, I have contacted Debbie who was nothing but lovely and says she will come out and take a look at my boy (will get back to me with a date tomorrow).
Now I'm trying to draft an email to my vet to say that this is the way I'd like to go for now, unless proven otherwise, but I need her help (and I do, I like her loads & my boy thinks the world of her too) and her respect to support me in that. Can anyone think of anything to include? Why are vets so anti-boots?
LucyPriory
Well-Known Member
Not all are. They may be initially suspicious as most have never seen the modern ones in action. I have found that the more open minded ones come round and some seem even enthusiastic - or so clients tell me
LucyPriory
Well-Known Member
OP - I know you have been struggling for 5 months. But your farrier has just removed a glue on and you know your horses feet are in poor nick - so I reckon he does not have the hoof health to be trotting right now.
Thin soles, underrun and contracted heels are not condusive to sound trotting when newly bare with or without boots. Some might be ok, but it is not something I would ever advise.
You need a programme of rehabilitation which will include much walking in boots first.
L&B
Well-Known Member
I haven't asked him to trot. These are all problems we face behaviour wise whilst ever I am on the ground and not in the saddle. It confuses him I think...
I have been trying to walk him out as we have a fab flat smooth hill to walk up and down but he just gets panicked with me on foot, would it be unkind to expect him to let me in saddle for walks out, I've more chance at keeping him in walk then also?
I have been trying to walk him out as we have a fab flat smooth hill to walk up and down but he just gets panicked with me on foot, would it be unkind to expect him to let me in saddle for walks out, I've more chance at keeping him in walk then also?