TB essential for eventing...??

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JessDoesItBetter

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Ok so me and my friend were having an argument, she reacons that for a horse to exceed intermediate level in eventing it will have to have a significant amount of TB in it as a WB wouldn't have the endurence to tackle an advanced/4* track. However im positive that there were full WB's competing at badminton and burghley this year, although i do accept that TB breeding does help and the winners at 4* level usually are TB's/X's, i don't think that TB's are the be all and end all and you can get advanced/4* WB's..

what do you think???
 
I think most eventers prefer to have more t/b blood because of the stamina side of things, however that was when the 3 days had the speed and endurance phase, I think things have changed a bit and you will see more warmbloods eventing but as for pure warmblood, i'm not actually sure!
 
I dont know about warmbloods but remember there was a pure lusitano who did Badminton last year! I dont think pure TB's are everything in eventing but I guess they are more likely to have the speed etc. for it whereas warmbloods are generally built heavier so as a result may have less. Doesn't have to be warmbloods, one of WFP's (was it Ballincoola (sp!)) was anglo arab. I think an AA is a great mix as you have the speed of the TB and the stamina of the arab
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Like wizoz pointed out, things may start changing and you'll probably see more non-TB breeds coming through due to the removal of the R&T and SC.
 
Um, there is no such thing as a "pure" warmblood - that's kind of the definition of the term. I don't think you could find a horse registered with any modern studbook that didn't have a percentage of TB blood and there are full TBs approved for breeding with most of the books. (A friend of mine has a TB mare that won her inspection with the Hannoverians and the RPSI.)

Trakheners are bit of a different case because they were bred to be "military" horses all along and have a "semi-closed" book which only takes TB and Arabs in for approval. (Most other books are not "breeds" as some people understand - lots of horses are approved for breeding with multiple books and the same bloodlines figure prominently in different breeds.) They are, for argument's sake, "full" warmbloods and some of the top eventers in the world were born into that registry. Selle Francais is a similar situation, with a lot of TB and Arab in the breed, and FEI eventing is a "goal" discipline for many French breeders.

Books tend to have specialities (Holst for jumpers etc.) or at least certain lines of horses bred for different disciplines. What you aren't as likely to see, for instance, is a "dressage bred" horse excelling at 4* level. It's such a science now everyone is trying to narrow their odds.

The catch is now it's harder and harder to find straight TBs that move well enough to win the dressage at the top level. As race breeding goes more and more towards early speed and artificial surfaces the types actually move further apart (a bigger problem in North America where there is no 'chasing market and few turf options) while the standards get higher. Obviously there are still many TBs excelling in sport and there always will be but as the other breeds catch up in refinement and stamina most people who breed TBs - unless they breed specifically for sport - are not consciously breeding for bigger movement.

Of course it's all academic at other than the top level. For lower stuff many horses or many types can and will do the job.
 
Agree a lot of warmbloods have TB in there ancestory. Mine is one of these and would probably wouldn't be short of speed or stamina at the top level.
 
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I dont know about warmbloods but remember there was a pure lusitano who did Badminton last year!

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That's just what I was going to say!!! Great minds!!
 
Sorry, didn't mean to offend.:) I guess I misunderstood that you were talking about TBs approved for warmblood breeding so the resulting horses appear as registered WBs not crosses. The world ranking lists do contain a great many horses with one TB parent, for instance the top 5 ranked Hosteiners all have TB sires. The information just gets lost in the shuffle.

I was just looking on the WBFSH site and there is a horse registered Baden-Württemberg by the same stallion as Shear L'Eau and Shear H20!

I'm curious about the Lusitano that completed Badminton - who was that? I don't know much about their program but it is my understanding they don't take any outside blood so that one must really be a freak!
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I dont know about warmbloods but remember there was a pure lusitano who did Badminton last year! I dont think pure TB's are everything in eventing but I guess they are more likely to have the speed etc. for it whereas warmbloods are generally built heavier so as a result may have less. Doesn't have to be warmbloods, one of WFP's (was it Ballincoola (sp!)) was anglo arab. I think an AA is a great mix as you have the speed of the TB and the stamina of the arab
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Like wizoz pointed out, things may start changing and you'll probably see more non-TB breeds coming through due to the removal of the R&T and SC.

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It was the girl who is at the farm up from us who did badminton on the lusitano and i think it has a bit of TB in it, there was a letter in HH about it, Could be wrong though he is called jesters quest
 
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Sorry, didn't mean to offend.:) I guess I misunderstood that you were talking about TBs approved for warmblood breeding so the resulting horses appear as registered WBs not crosses. The world ranking lists do contain a great many horses with one TB parent, for instance the top 5 ranked Hosteiners all have TB sires. The information just gets lost in the shuffle.

I was just looking on the WBFSH site and there is a horse registered Baden-Württemberg by the same stallion as Shear L'Eau and Shear H20!

I'm curious about the Lusitano that completed Badminton - who was that? I don't know much about their program but it is my understanding they don't take any outside blood so that one must really be a freak!
smile.gif


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Gemma Tattersall Jesters quest, She lives by me
 
I didn't hink it was essenstial, from what I understood it was because they are slightly quicker thinking and can get themselves out of trouble quicker than other breeds. perhaps it had more to do with the fact that the old format used to have the steeplechase section.

I dunno, but I enjoy watching it no matter what bred of horse takes part.
 
for the speed and stamina for 3-4 star, you need quite a bit of 'hot' blood, be it TB or Arab. As Cruiser says, there's no such thing as a 'pure warmblood' really, they've all got some tb in them somewhere, unless you are talking about the really chunky types such as Mr President (and much as i love him, i can't see him whizzing around Badders...)
the fact is though, at that level, having a blood horse with a naturally high cruising speed gives you a colossal advantage, there's no way around it. as long as it still has the scope and jumping style (which is by no means a given, obv), it is always going to be preferable to a slower, more cold-blooded type... which may jump round okay, but would have to be pushed flat out possibly (with inherent danger) to get near the time.
i found this out at 3 star... my mare, who was either 3/4 or 7/8 tb, the rest ID, had to be galloped absolutely flat out to get the time on the 'chase by a second spare(and yes, she was plenty fit enough, she just didn't have a 6th gear!) a friend's TB mare finished the same chase about 25 secs under, with a double handful...
of course, galloping foot to the boards greatly increases risk of injury, and takes a lot more out of the horse.
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there have been some absolutely top warmbloods, what about that lovely chestnut mare Feine Dame, she was quite something xc. *betraying my age*
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AmyMay, I think Stunning is the only full TB WFP's had

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I think there was maybe the odd mare as well from his mum.

But essentially - I think we're both right.
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As others have said full WB is a bit a misnomer.
WB's are likely (almost certain) to have a proportion of TB in them. At what point do you say that you have a TBX compared to a warmblood ?
My mare is Swedish Warmblood simply because she was bred in Sweden and the stallion was registered with the SWA but he was in fact a SF. The dam was an Irish TB. What if the SWA had a TB stallion on it's books & that had been used instead - well the result would I assume be a full TB but would still be registered as a Swedish Warmblood !
One further thought I can't exactly remember the details but as I said the dam was Irish TB & if you go back 2 generations further you get to Santa Claus (Epsom Derby winner) but if you go back further you do get ID in the breeding - so even a derby winner is not quite full TB !
 
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Gemma Tattersall Jesters quest, She lives by me

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Very cool! Thanks!

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You can cheks it breeding out on BE website to be 100% sure but there was some discussion about its breeding from the breeder in HH letters after badminton
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Jesters Quest is half thoroughbred, One parent was full TB and the other was Lustiano, not sure which.

Its incredibly important to have a large element of TB blood at top level- they just cannot cope with the speed and the stamina needed otherwise. Look at how Air Jordan really struggles at 4 star level- he definately doesnt look to have much TB in him.

Having said that so many warmbloods are largely TB's these days.
 
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I'm curious about the Lusitano that completed Badminton - who was that? I don't know much about their program but it is my understanding they don't take any outside blood so that one must really be a freak!
smile.gif


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Sorry, I can't remember what it was called, but it was grey! Someone on here will know I'm sure!
 
A Wetherby registered TB only needs 6/7 (cant remember exactly) generations of TB, I think anyway!
so if you bred 1/2 TB 1/2 ID it would only take 6 further generations of crossing in TB only, before it could be registered again and therefore raced!
Hoe that make sense, not sure it does to me and i know what i mean!!
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Feel free to correct me, im not sure how right i am!
 
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Jesters Quest is half thoroughbred, One parent was full TB and the other was Lustiano, not sure which.


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Interesting that it was claimed otherwise. People are funny.
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Its incredibly important to have a large element of TB blood at top level- they just cannot cope with the speed and the stamina needed otherwise. Look at how Air Jordan really struggles at 4 star level- he definately doesnt look to have much TB in him.

Having said that so many warmbloods are largely TB's these days.

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And yet Air Jordan 2 (the first one is a jumper) won the WEGs and is by Amerigo Vespucci xx. Which makes the point that the TYPE is more important than the actual breed. As with everything in breeding, genetics only count if the horse actually turns out as desired - a horse that *should* be an eventer/jumper/eventer or paper is worth nothing unless it comes out looking and acting the part. For eventers a good proportion of the right TB blood improves the odds the horse will have the raw material to make a good advanced horse.
 
A friend of mine has 2 TBxCleveland Bay 3* horses - 1 to go 4* this season and also had a 3/4 American Quarter HorsexTB who went 3* before being sold abroad.
 
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