Tb ex racer, bad front feet, bare behind, now ready for the fronts. Help/advise neede

[Holly Hocks]

It really annoys me when people assume TBs won't cope

. Tb's cope with some of the most pathological feet imaginable and yet still work and race

There is a culture of acceptance around Tb's - that it's inevitable and acceptable for them to have dreadful hooves.

I agree Oberon. When my trimmer came on Friday I was asking why TBs have a reputation for having such bad feet. She was saying that it is probably because they have shoes on from such a young age (think flat racers as two year olds). I hadn't thought of that before, but it does make sense....

 

[Oberon]

Oh your lucky I wish my farrier was like that. A trim is frogs pared, sole all cut off and not a lot left but I'm getting good at saying " please don't touch his back feet they are coping really well as they are" it's hard when he says diet has nothing to do with hoof health either but the vet says it's the best shoeing they have seen in a long time so I don't know. I wouldn't want to use a trimmer and put my farriers nose out as I love him but he has his strong views

Did you say your farrier shoes your horse with NB shoes?

NB shoes were invented by Gene Ovnicek who went into the desert at the same time as 'barefoot guru' Jaime Jackson. They BOTH studied wild mustang hooves together and formed their methods from their findings.

Jaime Jackson wrote books and formed the AANHCP, teaching natural hoofcare models and the 'wild horse trim' which is the basis for most of the successful barefoot trimmers around now.

Gene Ovnicek went to create the Natural Balance shoe in an attempt to allow the hoof to function as it does in the wild (weight bearing on the sole callous and shorter break over) but with the protection of a shoe.
http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/cms/gene-ovnicek.html

So you're farrier is shoeing from the theories similar to barefoot nutters.

 

[Oberon]

Sorry to hijack a bit but what exactly is it about the alfa a that can cause a problem, and can I assume that since Hi Fi has alfalfa in it the same can be said for this too?

My personal issue with it is that it is too high in calcium for my grazing.
My forage tested high in calcium and high in phosphorous. This is handy that they are balanced to each other, but adding MORE calcium from alfalfa kicks all the other minerals out of balance. My zinc and copper are already low (both essential for metabolism and hoof/skin health) and too much calcium robs the absorption of them.

Also - most horse feeds add calcium carbonate (limestone flour) to their mixes as well!

Secondly, due to being a legume (so a member of the pea family, not exactly a natural horse feed) it requires certain bacteria in the hind gut in order to ferment and digest. This is at odds with the bacteria already there to work on the grass/hay/haylage the horse has eaten. The bacteria has to change and the pH has to adapt - and it's all a lot of work for the gut to do!

I could forgive all of this if I hadn't seen such improvements when I ditched it.

Horse feed is just rife with it nowadays as horses seem to like it and it's cheap and easy to produce en mass.

When a horse is fed with fibre bases that are 'neutral' to the gut and work WITH the bacteria rather than against them, then they absorb the feed better and generally become easier and cheaper to feed.

You find a lot of poor doers doing badly on lots of high grain, conditioning mixes etc - but they often manage better on a simpler diet with balanced minerals...because they are working WITH the gut and not against it.

 

[thatsmygirl]

So what would you suggest instead off alfa a oil? I looked at readigrass type stuff but didn't like the sugar levels. It's a real job isn't it. All my other ponies have Allen and page L mix ( cereal free though) micro linseed with brewers yeast, mag oz, vits/mins and garlic and I'm happy with all off them but just want to give my lad the best chance by his diet and if that means changeing from alfa a oil I will do if there's something else to offer? bearing in mind his weight needs monitoring, although as amymay said he's more racing fit than poor but I hate seeing ribs

 

[thatsmygirl]

Oh yes it is natural balance shoes he's shod with, sort off square instead off the normal shoe shape. Horrid things I hate them and so much toe hanging over the front

 

[Holly Hocks]

So what would you suggest instead off alfa a oil? I looked at readigrass type stuff but didn't like the sugar levels. It's a real job isn't it. All my other ponies have Allen and page L mix ( cereal free though) micro linseed with brewers yeast, mag oz, vits/mins and garlic and I'm happy with all off them but just want to give my lad the best chance by his diet and if that means changeing from alfa a oil I will do if there's something else to offer? bearing in mind his weight needs monitoring, although as amymay said he's more racing fit than poor but I hate seeing ribs

If you can get a sample of Allen and Page Fast fibre and he will eat it then you're honestly onto a winner - it's fantastic stuff - low starch, low sugar, very high fibre. I know it says that it's for good doers, but the fact is that if the gut is functioning correctly, ie with a high fibre diet, the horse will put weight on from adlib hay/haylage. You can feed in excess of the amounts on the bag of Fast Fibre....
A new feed which has come out from Rowen and Barbary is one called Solutions Mash. It actually has less sugar than Fast Fibre, low starch levels - and no alfa. I've not tried it yet, but my barefoot trimmer was pretty impressed when I showed her the factsheet....
If you were nearer you could have had my bag of Fast Fibre that fussy mare won't touch!!

 

[thatsmygirl]

Holly hocks thanks, I feed speedibeet and worry that it's going to be a bucket off slop so to speak!!! My laminitic wouldn't touch fast fiber and I had to chuck a bag so I'm a bit worried instead I chuck a 2nd bag. Will google the other feed though

 

[Holly Hocks]

Holly hocks thanks, I feed speedibeet and worry that it's going to be a bucket off slop so to speak!!! My laminitic wouldn't touch fast fiber and I had to chuck a bag so I'm a bit worried instead I chuck a 2nd bag. Will google the other feed though

If you e-mail Rowen and Barbary via their website and ask for a sample of Solutions Mash, they will send you a small sample.....

 

[criso]

She was saying that it is probably because they have shoes on from such a young age (think flat racers as two year olds). I hadn't thought of that before, but it does make sense....

That's what happened to mine, shod at about 20 months and his feet never had a chance to develop. He had horrible feet and all sorts of damage as a result.

That'smygirl I feed coolstance copra, it's coconut based and quite high in oil. I don't feed alot because mine holds weight quite well but it's good stuff.

Incidentally I used to feed Alfalfa pellets and mine didn't have a problem with it although he is grass sensitive but some do.

As for time of year, alot of people have problems with grass in the summer so if you do it now you don't have to worry about that, yes we may get hard frosts but in the summer all our fields were like concrete and if we get snow like last year you'll feel very smug when you can ride in it.

Meanwhile a picture of a poor barefoot tb - excuse my position, he took off about 6 foot early and nearly pinged me out of the saddle.

 

[Oberon]

Oh yes it is natural balance shoes he's shod with, sort off square instead off the normal shoe shape. Horrid things I hate them and so much toe hanging over the front

The toe hanging over the front is part of the design to allow a 'natural' break over. Barefoot trimmers tend to do it with a 'mustang roll'. If you think of the horse moving, rather than stood still, it makes sense. The square toe, I don't agree with though

Re feed - only change it if you feel you need to. Your horse will tell you if something needs to change. Don't sweat it right now - these are just tools to use in the future if you need them.

I used to feed mollichop....and HappyHoof...wheat feed....carob....and all kinds of stuff

. It's been a case of trial and error and that's all any of us can say

Make one change at a time.

Chill

I'd be interested in the new Rowan and Barbary stuff.....[shuffles off to look at the website]

 

[thatsmygirl]

Oberon, holly hocks you have both been great. Big hug to you both x
criso your lad is lovely and thanks for your input it's all been very interesting.
I shall look at the rowan and Barbary feed out off interest.
I'm off to bed now xx

 

[Queenbee]

If you can get a sample of Allen and Page Fast fibre and he will eat it then you're honestly onto a winner - it's fantastic stuff - low starch, low sugar, very high fibre. I know it says that it's for good doers, but the fact is that if the gut is functioning correctly, ie with a high fibre diet, the horse will put weight on from adlib hay/haylage. You can feed in excess of the amounts on the bag of Fast Fibre....
A new feed which has come out from Rowen and Barbary is one called Solutions Mash. It actually has less sugar than Fast Fibre, low starch levels - and no alfa. I've not tried it yet, but my barefoot trimmer was pretty impressed when I showed her the factsheet....
If you were nearer you could have had my bag of Fast Fibre that fussy mare won't touch!!

I had to stop with FF as ben won't touch it

 

[Mince Pie]

OP Rowen and Barbery are amazing, really really lovely people to deal with Also having had a quick nosy at the ingredients there is mag ox, garlic, limestone, and full vits/mins already in it.

HH - you know my skinny girl, think she'd cope if I swapped her onto the solutions mash instead of the ready mash?

 

[Holly Hocks]

OP Rowen and Barbery are amazing, really really lovely people to deal with Also having had a quick nosy at the ingredients there is mag ox, garlic, limestone, and full vits/mins already in it.

HH - you know my skinny girl, think she'd cope if I swapped her onto the solutions mash instead of the ready mash?

Hi BBH - not sure - I've taken Blue off the Readymash now as we're transitioning to barefoot and she is off work, so it was too high in starch for her. Also she is too fat now!! I tried Blue with the Solutions mash and she wasn't impressed - but she is incredibly fussy - the readymash was the only thing she would eat. I reckon if your mare would eat it, it's better balanced than the readymash extra, and providing you are able to feed more or less adlib haylage, then it could be worth a bag's try.....I'd give R and B a ring and ask them for a sample - at least that way you don't have to fork out on a full bag of something she won't eat!

 

[AmyMay]

It really annoys me when people assume TBs won't cope

. Tb's cope with some of the most pathological feet imaginable and yet still work and race

There is a culture of acceptance around Tb's - that it's inevitable and acceptable for them to have dreadful hooves.

I have nothing against any horse going barefoot.

However, it is important to note that this horse is 8 weeks out of racing, has natural balance shoes on and will be having a complete change of lifestyle.

Too many changes at once could cause real problems for the OP, but more importantly the horse.

Take him barefoot by all means - just don't rush in to it. Let him settle in to his new life style first, and then have a little look at taking the shoes off in the spring.

Rush at your peril, I would say.

 

[Oberon]

Not ranting at you. It's my general TBhoofrant

Spring isn't often the best time to take a horse barefoot in my experience as the spring grass tends to add another complication to an already weak hoof.

In cases where the owner has made efforts to do some background research and provide boots and appropriate hoof care....I'm a bit confused by where the danger is in taking an ex racer barefoot after 8 weeks?

 

[amandap]

Op, may I add to the diet advice that you stop the garlic. It has an anti bacterial effect so isn't good for gut flora which horses need to digest forage.
Also if you find he is not progressing well consider soaking your hay or getting it tested. My tb has done really well since I started her on soaked hay. She is very sensitive to sugars and grass it seems and not all are like this but just keep it in the back of your mind...

Good luck.

 

[horseelady]

My personal issue with it is that it is too high in calcium for my grazing.
My forage tested high in calcium and high in phosphorous. This is handy that they are balanced to each other, but adding MORE calcium from alfalfa kicks all the other minerals out of balance. My zinc and copper are already low (both essential for metabolism and hoof/skin health) and too much calcium robs the absorption of them.

Also - most horse feeds add calcium carbonate (limestone flour) to their mixes as well!

Secondly, due to being a legume (so a member of the pea family, not exactly a natural horse feed) it requires certain bacteria in the hind gut in order to ferment and digest. This is at odds with the bacteria already there to work on the grass/hay/haylage the horse has eaten. The bacteria has to change and the pH has to adapt - and it's all a lot of work for the gut to do!

I could forgive all of this if I hadn't seen such improvements when I ditched it.

Horse feed is just rife with it nowadays as horses seem to like it and it's cheap and easy to produce en mass.

When a horse is fed with fibre bases that are 'neutral' to the gut and work WITH the bacteria rather than against them, then they absorb the feed better and generally become easier and cheaper to feed.

You find a lot of poor doers doing badly on lots of high grain, conditioning mixes etc - but they often manage better on a simpler diet with balanced minerals...because they are working WITH the gut and not against it.

Legumes are a natural feed for horses, look up the history of the TB and you find their bloodlines come fron the med/middle east, and horses in these countreis only eat legumes!!, NOT GRASS, (maybe this is why they do not have laminitis in these countires). Horses have being eating legumes since time begun, it's their original natural feed.
You need phosphorus and magnesium to absorb calcium into the body you will only have a problem with calcium if you do not have these other two minerals in your horses diet do you know how much calcium a horse needs? A lot! I love using alfalfa but I do not like the alflafa a as it does not look like alfalfa and I dont like the smell. I've been using pure alfalfa for 2 years with no probs at all, and I save a fortune in the winter bacuse my horses dont eat as much hay after their fill up of alfalfa, it has about 35% fibre which is brill. It drives me mad with feeds have added this or that and I hate it when they add chemicals grrrr. I've only got 8 horses, but it is still hard work, and i've found that if you want to reduce the vet bills feed your horses naturally, and you will have less probs.

 

[thatsmygirl]

Amandap thank you I have taken on board what has been said about the garlic and stopped it as off yeserday.

 

[Oberon]

Legumes are a natural feed for horses, look up the history of the TB and you find their bloodlines come fron the med/middle east, and horses in these countreis only eat legumes!!, NOT GRASS, (maybe this is why they do not have laminitis in these countires). Horses have being eating legumes since time begun, it's their original natural feed.
You need phosphorus and magnesium to absorb calcium into the body you will only have a problem with calcium if you do not have these other two minerals in your horses diet do you know how much calcium a horse needs? A lot! I love using alfalfa but I do not like the alflafa a as it does not look like alfalfa and I dont like the smell. I've been using pure alfalfa for 2 years with no probs at all, and I save a fortune in the winter bacuse my horses dont eat as much hay after their fill up of alfalfa, it has about 35% fibre which is brill. It drives me mad with feeds have added this or that and I hate it when they add chemicals grrrr. I've only got 8 horses, but it is still hard work, and i've found that if you want to reduce the vet bills feed your horses naturally, and you will have less probs.

I fed alfalfa to my arab for a long time. He is 98% Crabbet and you can trace his lines all the way back to the desert

Even so, I found large improvements when I ditched alfalfa and started using a balanced mineral diet with Fast Fibre as a base.

I appreciate that horses need calcium. But when the phosphorous and calcium of my forage is equally high - but BALANCED, then I'm sure you can agree that adding more calcium via alfalfa (at the rates I needed to feed it for an elderly horse with poor dentition) would knock that balance off kilter.
The secret was to leave the Ca ratio as is, and add magnesium, copper and zinc to meet it.

If alfalfa works for the horse, fine. But in cases like my forage (which is quite consistent with others in UK) and where horses react badly to it (hives and aggitation) then it shouldn't be the only choice from fibre based feeds