TB Gelding acting like Stallion

[marley and danni]

Hi,

my TB gelding has been cut for 4 years now and hes not generally been near any mares for any period of time untill this summer... for 2 weeks his been not eating in the paddock and running the fwnce line after the mares and groom one or two over the fence with an erection... he calls to them morning and night but nothing violent untill last night....

he chased away several other geldings in his feild and has been seen full on fighting with another gelding....

and also last night a mre he was seen grooming came past him while he was tied up and i was mucking oout i came out (hes a kicker) to make sure he stayed put while the owner took her mare past she stopped and couldnt mover her mare the mare squirted and was whickering and in turn my horse whickered back and got an arched nech and erection the persistently tried to break from the tie up ring and mount her it got to point where he was striking out with his front legs and trying to kick me with his hind.

in the end i removed him from the situation when it was safe for me to get between them and get the mare out of the way.

i fear he would get worse have spoke to the vet and suggested a supplement so will try this but if it doesnt work the vet mentioned somthing about medication...

has anyone had experience like this before? he could have gotten quite dangerous.

thanks

 

[Sandstone1]

Has he had a blood test to confirm he has been gelded correctly and is not a rig?

 

[marley and danni]

hi elliesmemory, no i have not but i presume that what the vet will want to do if theres no improvement over the next week? he is now separated and has not successfully mounted a mare yet.

have you had experience with this before?

 

[marley and danni]

also i am in copntact with the girl who had him before me and she assures me he was cut and no testicals were retained..... could it be possible that theres somthing left up there though?

 

[Sandstone1]

I had a pony years ago who turned out to be a rig. Think you really need to find out if he is or not as his behaviour could be dangerous both for you and others.
If he is a rig then the vet should be able to advise you about operating. If he has a retained testicle it can mean a big op.
If he's not a rig there are supplements that may help.
I would want to know either way if it was me.

 

[stilltrying]

Hi there, yes i've had experience of this before. My horse became very difficult around mares, think he was 5 at the time. I remember once he dragged me across a yard and took chunks out of a stable door trying to get into a mare's stable who was in season. I couldn't hack out with mares, really odd but if one of them poo'd he'd go nuts, lunge at the poo, eat it, then turn on anything and anyone in the vicinity (including me, trying to swing his head around and bite me / buck me off!) Its the only time in 10 years he has ever frightened me. Just seemed to lose his mind!

I ended up getting him blood tested as his behaviour was concerning other liveries. Blood test came back negative. Before you waste your money on a test - my vet told me (afterwards) not one test that he'd ever done had come back positive!

Things improved when i turned him out on a yard which allowed mixed herds. Sounds a bit risky, but all summer long he serviced the ladies. He wouldn't go near them unless they were in season. The other geldings weren't bothered so left him to it. I actually feel mean now as we in an all male herd!

 

[marley and danni]

hes a 9yr old now hes in an all gelding herd with mares in next feild over. sounds like a similar situation. have you tried any suppliments?

thanks x

 

[stilltrying]

Should have said - the blood test involved taking bloods, then giving him an injection to stimulate testosterone, then further bloods were taken. So if he was a rig or if there was any testicular tissue left behind then it would show up. But nope, nothing. Just instinct, and he was possible cut late and ran with mares as a youngster.

 

[Sandstone1]

The mares owners might not be happy with that though! I know I wouldn't be. The pony I had was a rig and went on to be operated on although not with me.
Far better in my opinion to find out for sure either way.
I would not want to risk injury to other people or horses. I certainly would not want any mare of mine turned out with a horse like that.

 

[stilltrying]

hes a 9yr old now hes in an all gelding herd with mares in next feild over. sounds like a similar situation. have you tried any suppliments?

thanks x

TBH I dont see how i could have supplemented him as there was no testosterone present. That was the previous set up I had and it was too much for him. The mares would be in season, taunting him over the fence / stable! Id either move to an all gelding yard or see if you can pair him with a mare. At my last yard my boy's girlfriend was a 20 year old native pony, they had a lovely time!

 

[marley and danni]

The yard I am on I can not turn him out with the mares any way and I wouldn’t want to risk injury to my horse nor theres so that’s out of the question.

I have just spoken to his old owner he was cut at 5yrs old and she saw both testicles and vet assured her that there was nothing left up there… so could it be that he has just learnt this behavious when he was younger and remembered it and started to act on it now…. Not sure what I can do about it though other than keep him in a completely separate paddock even two fields away from the mares as hes dropped weight as hes not eating…. To busy trying to get to the mares.


As for walking past my stable I cant stop that so will put a sign up… I have seen some suppliments for stallion like gelding and the one the vet suggested so might give them a go see if will calm his hormones down a little?

 

[stilltrying]

The mares owners might not be happy with that though! I know I wouldn't be. The pony I had was a rig and went on to be operated on although not with me.
Far better in my opinion to find out for sure either way.
I would not want to risk injury to other people or horses. I certainly would not want any mare of mine turned out with a horse like that.

I wasn't advising turning out with mares without permission! If I had another mare i'd be quite happy to let her have some fun. In fact i feel sorry for mares who are left with all their hormones raging, surrounded by useless geldings! : )

 

[stilltrying]

The yard I am on I can not turn him out with the mares any way and I wouldn’t want to risk injury to my horse nor theres so that’s out of the question.

I have just spoken to his old owner he was cut at 5yrs old and she saw both testicles and vet assured her that there was nothing left up there… so could it be that he has just learnt this behavious when he was younger and remembered it and started to act on it now…. Not sure what I can do about it though other than keep him in a completely separate paddock even two fields away from the mares as hes dropped weight as hes not eating…. To busy trying to get to the mares.


As for walking past my stable I cant stop that so will put a sign up… I have seen some suppliments for stallion like gelding and the one the vet suggested so might give them a go see if will calm his hormones down a little?

5 is late and he will know by then what its all about, so it is probs just in his mind. But if you feel more comfortable with blood test then go for it. Mine cost me £150 9 yrs ago and that didn't include call out as i took him to vets. Mine is 14 now and although he isn't in field with mares he has happily hacked out with them and behaved himself.

 

[Sandstone1]

If you don't want to go for the test then it might be worth trying some thing like rig calm just to see if it makes a differance. Doubt it's learned behaviour though.

 

[marley and danni]

ok thanks!! ill see how he goes he might calm down he will be on a suppliment though just incase! x

 

[stilltrying]

Why would it not be learned behaviour if he wasn't cut till 5? I bought mine as a 3yo (had been gelded but I dont know when) and he knows exactly what its all about.

 

[Sandstone1]

Stallions don't learn to be stallions do they. It's hormones that make them interested in mares. That's why we geld them to take away the hormones that make them want to cover mares.
If a gelding has been cut late he may be a bit more interested but should not show strong stallion behaviour.
There would be mayhem if all geldings wanted to cover mares.

 

[stilltrying]

Stallions don't learn to be stallions do they. It's hormones that make them interested in mares. That's why we geld them to take away the hormones that make them want to cover mares.
If a gelding has been cut late he may be a bit more interested but should not show strong stallion behaviour.
There would be mayhem if all geldings wanted to cover mares.

I appreciate that but by 5 he would have been sexually mature with hormones raging, even if he had not run with mares, the desire would have been present. As i said i'm speaking from experience of one that does act the stallion, even though he shouldn't.

 

[Sandstone1]

Yes, but surely by removing the testicles you should be removing the hormones. Otherwise what would be the point of gelding them if the urge is still there?

 

[stilltrying]

Agreed, and as was shown with mine, the hormone went along with his balls. But he was still able to cover mares, albeit firing blanks. As time has gone on he has calmed down and presumably started to forget.

Presumably for this reason colts are normally gelded a lot younger than 5, i.e. before they know what its all about.

 

[AAR]

This behaviour will start to die down but you will have to put preventative measures up until he has calmed down. (could take years because he was late)

But leading him in a chifney/bit near mares, a grill up across his stable, handling him firmly at all times etc etc I'm sure you know. This isn't his hormones telling him to do this anymore so you can tell him off and tell him whats right and whats wrong. be firm!!

 

[Brightbay]

Stallions don't learn to be stallions do they. It's hormones that make them interested in mares. That's why we geld them to take away the hormones that make them want to cover mares.

No it's not that simple It's exactly the same process of development as in humans (and other mammals). Animals are born either genetically male or genetically female. So at birth, there are male or female behaviours that are hardwired - male horses have a higher play drive, different social behaviours, more interest in sniffing poo, instinct to drive and herd other horses for example. All that before any hormones affect behaviour at all. They maintain those male behaviours all their lives. At puberty (or whatever age the animal reaches sexual maturity), the maturing sex organs stimulate a final development process in the brain, so the animal develops an adult male brain, which means that in addition to the regular male behaviours, they have a new range of male *sex* behaviours - responding to the scent of a female in season, courting, mounting etc., dunging on other male's poo, defending mares from other males. Some of these happen all the time once the animal reaches maturity, some only happen in response to stimulation (mare in season).

Now to go back to the process of castration. If you castrate a male *before* puberty, they still have a juvenile male brain - so a whole range of male behaviours, but no male *sexual* behaviour. This kind of gelding will usually not respond to a mare in season, although they will be interested in mares and may herd them. Injecting testosterone into this kind of gelding will have little effect, since the brain areas that respond to it have never developed.

However, if you castrate your male *after* puberty, testosterone will have led their brain to mature as an adult male, so they have the potential to perform the whole range of male sexual behaviours. The only thing they are missing is testosterone. However, the testes are not the only part of the body that produces testosterone - it is also produced in small quantities by the adrenal glands. A late castrated male can sometimes still respond to females in season and if there's a little bit of testosterone circulating, they may serve the mares too. They obviously can't impregnate them, since there's no possibility of sperm.
Obviously (because of the link to the adrenal glands) situations where adrenalin is up tend to be the situations where the horse is most likely to get excited by mares - the key to management is to make mares boring. Lots of aggressive (or even assertive) handling when the horse is already wound up is likely to make the situation worse rather than better - best approach is to remove him somewhere to calm down if he gets wound up).

As someone above says, the best possible solution is for horses like this to live with a bunch of mares, since they quickly settle when things become routine, rather than exceptional and exciting.

(BTW I have yet to meet a vet who can explain this - I only happen to know because I teach a course on the Neuropsychology of Behaviour, including the development of sexual behaviours ).

 

[Sandstone1]

No it's not that simple It's exactly the same process of development as in humans (and other mammals). Animals are born either genetically male or genetically female. So at birth, there are male or female behaviours that are hardwired - male horses have a higher play drive, different social behaviours, more interest in sniffing poo, instinct to drive and herd other horses for example. All that before any hormones affect behaviour at all. They maintain those male behaviours all their lives. At puberty (or whatever age the animal reaches sexual maturity), the maturing sex organs stimulate a final development process in the brain, so the animal develops an adult male brain, which means that in addition to the regular male behaviours, they have a new range of male *sex* behaviours - responding to the scent of a female in season, courting, mounting etc., dunging on other male's poo, defending mares from other males. Some of these happen all the time once the animal reaches maturity, some only happen in response to stimulation (mare in season).

Now to go back to the process of castration. If you castrate a male *before* puberty, they still have a juvenile male brain - so a whole range of male behaviours, but no male *sexual* behaviour. This kind of gelding will usually not respond to a mare in season, although they will be interested in mares and may herd them. Injecting testosterone into this kind of gelding will have little effect, since the brain areas that respond to it have never developed.

However, if you castrate your male *after* puberty, testosterone will have led their brain to mature as an adult male, so they have the potential to perform the whole range of male sexual behaviours. The only thing they are missing is testosterone. However, the testes are not the only part of the body that produces testosterone - it is also produced in small quantities by the adrenal glands. A late castrated male can sometimes still respond to females in season and if there's a little bit of testosterone circulating, they may serve the mares too. They obviously can't impregnate them, since there's no possibility of sperm.
Obviously (because of the link to the adrenal glands) situations where adrenalin is up tend to be the situations where the horse is most likely to get excited by mares - the key to management is to make mares boring. Lots of aggressive (or even assertive) handling when the horse is already wound up is likely to make the situation worse rather than better - best approach is to remove him somewhere to calm down if he gets wound up).

As someone above says, the best possible solution is for horses like this to live with a bunch of mares, since they quickly settle when things become routine, rather than exceptional and exciting.

(BTW I have yet to meet a vet who can explain this - I only happen to know because I teach a course on the Neuropsychology of Behaviour, including the development of sexual behaviours ).

So the earlier the better for gelding then. My old pony however, Was a rig. He showed all the same sort of behaviour ie mounting mares, getting aggressive etc.

 

[pines of rome]

My TB was a stallion until he was eight years old, I got him when he was nine and even now at fourteen, he has still got some stallion like behaviour!
Luckily he is not near any mares, but if we are out riding and come across one, he gets very excited, arching his neck and prancing about, I can't go behind one! The other problem I have with him is leading in hand as he gets naughty with me and is quite a handful.
He has also retained his stallion like neck and does have a lovely coat.

 

[noname]

Hi,

I bought mine out of racing where they are often cut much later. (I think mine was about 6 when he was gelded).
Its very common for horses to be colty when they are cut late. Darley rehoming insist on their horses being kept separate from mares when they rehome them.

This is very common behaviour of a horse cut late. Could also consider a rig test though. As above, lots of different ways to manage it. Its not easy for an normal gelding to cope with a mare squirting in its face.

 

[fuze]

I ended up getting him blood tested as his behaviour was concerning other liveries. Blood test came back negative. Before you waste your money on a test - my vet told me (afterwards) not one test that he'd ever done had come back positive!

My vet said something very similar - along the lines of what a waste of time it was. I insisted, and the test came back as a resounding positive. A high positive at that, and I know how disheartening rig behavior can be.

I'd be getting a vet to rig test ASAP. Mine even did it on a callout day.

 

[twiggy2]

Agreed, and as was shown with mine, the hormone went along with his balls. But he was still able to cover mares, albeit firing blanks. As time has gone on he has calmed down and presumably started to forget.

Presumably for this reason colts are normally gelded a lot younger than 5, i.e. before they know what its all about.

they are gelded young to make them easier to handled and in the UK it is difficult to find yards to takes colts.
it wont be learned behaviour it is hormone driven, my friends gelding was used as a stallion until he was gelded aged 10 and now at 18 he is as good a gold, he still has a presence about him but that is due to hormones being there as his body developed.
for what it is worth we had a little welsh gelding on the yard who was turned out with three welsh mares, he was fine for 3 yrs and part way through the 4th year he was seen covering one of the mares, of the three 2 came in damaged-one had to be PTS, he tested positive on the hormone test and was given a jab to reduce hormones, he can be given this twice a year but had the first and then settled he now has an elderly shetland for company and is not near any mares.

letting a gelding or rig service mares that are not tested runs the risk of spreading infection from mare to mare or gelding as well as the physical damage that can be done it is risky and foolish

 

[Woolybear]

I appreciate that but by 5 he would have been sexually mature with hormones raging, even if he had not run with mares, the desire would have been present. As i said i'm speaking from experience of one that does act the stallion, even though he shouldn't.

In my experience horses who are cut late still display stallion behaviour, they develop with sexual maturity and unfortunately it doesn't leave them with their testicles; dominance issues in a herd situation with other horses, actually 'mating' mares and general stallion style melodrama.

 

[stilltrying]

they are gelded young to make them easier to handled and in the UK it is difficult to find yards to takes colts.
it wont be learned behaviour it is hormone driven, my friends gelding was used as a stallion until he was gelded aged 10 and now at 18 he is as good a gold, he still has a presence about him but that is due to hormones being there as his body developed.
for what it is worth we had a little welsh gelding on the yard who was turned out with three welsh mares, he was fine for 3 yrs and part way through the 4th year he was seen covering one of the mares, of the three 2 came in damaged-one had to be PTS, he tested positive on the hormone test and was given a jab to reduce hormones, he can be given this twice a year but had the first and then settled he now has an elderly shetland for company and is not near any mares.

letting a gelding or rig service mares that are not tested runs the risk of spreading infection from mare to mare or gelding as well as the physical damage that can be done it is risky and foolish

Risky and foolish? To let my horse behave like a horse? Each to their own I suppose, but I certainly do not agree with individual turn out on postage sized paddocks. I am lucky enough to keep my horse in a small group (albeit now it is male only as on a different yard) and whilst if anything were to happen to him of course I would be devastated, I would know that he has had a decent life.

 

[flirtygerty]

I had to leave a yard because of my lads behaviour, he had lived with an older mare and a young filly for two years, moved to a yard and was in a mixed herd, fine for six months, then a young mare arrived and my lad ended up raping her, cut her up badly, poor mare was in shock, my lad tried again the same day with another mare, at which point he was stabled, YO refused to seperate the sexes so I left, my lad was rig tested and came back negative, he has never shown that behaviour before the incident or since, still lives with an ex brood mare and keeps his distance, go figure