TB mare attacked me twice today :-(

[yaffsimone1]

My 7 yr old mare who ive had since May this year has always been a bit 'nippy' around her feed and rugging.

She threatens me all the time but i'm quick enough to nip it in the bud.

Today while i was in the stable she made contact twice at the top of my thigh and just above my knee, she was like lightening, i didnt see any of them coming. Once when taking her rug off this morning and this evening when she was eating her feed and i was putting her haynet up. I know she is grumpy when rugging and likes to be left alone when being fed, but i sure dont see why i should be dictated to as to when i go in her stable. If i want to go in when she is eating then so be it, she has to learn to accept it.

Obviously a few choice words were said and i did regrettably whack her, although just as quickly i made her go to the back of her stable and stand there. The most annoying this was she had no remorse just stood there staring or trying to push me out of the way.

She hasn't been this bolshy before but i am very soft on her, nothing has changed in her diet or regeime and vet has been out recently and said she is good health.

I will not tolerate this and its got to stop now!. She is a super quick leaner, she only needs to do something once and get away with it and she will do it again within days or sometimes hours like today.

What is the best way to handle this? i'm currently trying not to scold her as it doesn't work but its hard when she is taking chunks out of me, in fact it makes her worse but instead i make her go to the back of the stable but even then she still tries to push it!

Sorry about the thigh photo, i dont have the worlds most glamourous thighs!!

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=20612&d=1381597580

 

[Fourlegsgood]

I'm sorry but if a horse of mine does this sort of thing then world war 3 breaks out immediately.

They never do it twice.

 

[Auslander]

Why on earth are you trying not to scold her? She clearly really means it, judging by the state of your leg - and no matter what her reasons are - it's not on for a horse to bite. If a horse was biting that badly around me, it would be meeting the business end of a bit of hosepipe as it lunged at me - not my flesh.

eta - If she isn't responding to your scolding - you aren't being tough enough

 

[yaffsimone1]

I hate to say this when she bit me first time i was so close to, i'm ashamed to say, whacking the hell out of her but i refrained and it was just lots of screaming, swearing and pushing her away but it clearly had no impact because she it again a few hours later. That when i decided no way can this happen again but just dont know the best way to go about it. All other times she is a joy, i can muck out around her, play with her, do what ever i like except be near her around feed, or watch he like a hawk when doing her rugs

 

[Magnetic Sparrow]

What Fourlegsgood and Auslander said. There is no excuse for this behaviour. Provided you punish fast enough that the horse understands that it being punished for biting, then serious repercussions are in order.

 

[Clodagh]

She meant that! It looks sore. Can you not tie her up outside, or without hay whille you do her rugs? I know she should be OK but set yourself up to succeed. I would have a bit of blue pipe to hand though.

 

[ConnieLove]

but i sure dont see why i should be dictated to as to when i go in her stable. If i want to go in when she is eating then so be it, she has to learn to accept it.

You said it here. This horse is 500kg heavier than you, if they don't want to do something, you have no way of controlling them and you will get very hurt in the process.

Do not feel bad about scolding them, in the wild a mare will bite her foal to put it into place. Doesn't mean she doesn't love it, but it has to respect that she is boss. A quick slap on the neck and a firm tone of voice is easier understood to them then being soft on them. They don't understand words like you and I so you need to set your personal space boundaries as would happen in the wild.

This problem could easily turn into something more nasty than it is. Kudos for noticing that now is the time to not mummy her anymore and become more assertive in your horsemanship though

 

[AmyMay]

You see I do think you kind of asked for it. You know the trigger points and you do need to work around them. For me that would mean tying up short to rug, and tying up the haynet before you fed.

I had a horse that could not tolerate any interference when eating - so I simply left her to it.

 

[Molly'sMama]

I agree re strictness. Mares in wild herds will bite rude young colts, hard, when they're little monsters. A swift , sensible - ie.. don't do it for nothing, but this behaviour deserves it- retaliation is what you need to do. ATM she thinks that she is more important than you. Change that.

 

[yaffsimone1]

Why on earth are you trying not to scold her? She clearly really means it, judging by the state of your leg - and no matter what her reasons are - it's not on for a horse to bite. If a horse was biting that badly around me, it would be meeting the business end of a bit of hosepipe as it lunged at me - not my flesh.

eta - If she isn't responding to your scolding - you aren't being tough enough

Ive never been a great fan of lashing out but after today i'm might have to try and not be so soft. My fellow livery stands at about 4ft 11, 60 odd years old and none of her TB's would dare even bare their teeth and she said pretty much the same as you. She said don't beat the living daylights out of her but if it means having a riding crop on me or showing her my boot then so be it

 

[yaffsimone1]

You see I do think you kind of asked for it. You know the trigger points and you do need to work around them. For me that would mean tying up short to rug, and tying up the haynet before you fed.

I had a horse that could not tolerate any interference when eating - so I simply left her to it.

I totally agree with you in one respect and this is what i have been doing, but should i really have to do as mare says? i'm supposed to be the boss

 

[yaffsimone1]

What Fourlegsgood and Auslander said. There is no excuse for this behaviour. Provided you punish fast enough that the horse understands that it being punished for biting, then serious repercussions are in order.

I have never had a horse this fast, honestly she thinks and moves likes lightening!!

 

[p87]

I'm certainly not one to condone cruelty to animals but if I was being put in severe, deliberate danger by an animal then yes, I'd make an exception.

Horses are big, powerful, clever animals, capable of killing humans very easily. This needs to be nipped in the bud right now, as it sounds like she is doing it because she has been let away with it so long.

Is she a kicker as well as a biter? Could you tie her up with no rope allowance and get as close as possible to her, run your hands all over her, faff about with her rugs etc giving her a sharp smack/jab in the nose every time she tries to bite until she stops trying to attack you? Also remember to give her lots of praise and space when she DOES stand nice for you.

 

[Auslander]

I hate to say this when she bit me first time i was so close to, i'm ashamed to say, whacking the hell out of her but i refrained and it was just lots of screaming, swearing and pushing her away but it clearly had no impact because she it again a few hours later. That when i decided no way can this happen again but just dont know the best way to go about it. All other times she is a joy, i can muck out around her, play with her, do what ever i like except be near her around feed, or watch he like a hawk when doing her rugs

Should've gone with your instinct! Seriously - this is dangerous, and shes already told you that she doesn't care if you yell at her/push her away. You can manage the situation by tying her up to do anything with her, making sure everything is in her stable before she goes in it, and not going near her at certain times. but she will still think its ok to bite.

Or you can let her know in no uncertain terms that she doesnt bite EVER.

Imagine how you'd feel if she dived at someone over her stable door because she had feed, and decided they were too close. I've been there, and the pain of having a horse sink its teeth into the back of your head is indescribable - it was lucky I wasn't one of the kids.

 

[yaffsimone1]

You said it here. This horse is 500kg heavier than you, if they don't want to do something, you have no way of controlling them and you will get very hurt in the process.

Do not feel bad about scolding them, in the wild a mare will bite her foal to put it into place. Doesn't mean she doesn't love it, but it has to respect that she is boss. A quick slap on the neck and a firm tone of voice is easier understood to them then being soft on them. They don't understand words like you and I so you need to set your personal space boundaries as would happen in the wild.

This problem could easily turn into something more nasty than it is. Kudos for noticing that now is the time to not mummy her anymore and become more assertive in your horsemanship though

I'm shocked at how quickly she has gone from warnings to full on attack, i know i should have been firmer with the warnings but i thought i was on top of it...obviously not!

 

[SadKen]

Two choices really, either instant, big reaction, or work around like Amymay suggested. I'd probably be trying a smack, quickly delivered, as I think it sorts the problem out quickly. Those bites look nasty. I don't think there is any issue in correcting that. You can always try work arounds if a smack doesn't work or if you know it will just escalate things.

 

[Costypop]

She ment that! I used to work in a rescue center and had a few of these in, best thing to do is pop a grazing muzzle on her and then teach her about rugs etc, going like hell for leather if she does go for you, hosepipe etc. I know it sounds mean but with some of the horses I had to deal with it was over come this or they got PTs too many "nice" horses there too rehome, sad but true.
I wouldn't be brothering her if she's eating she should be allowed to eat in peace.

 

[yaffsimone1]

I'm certainly not one to condone cruelty to animals but if I was being put in severe, deliberate danger by an animal then yes, I'd make an exception.

Horses are big, powerful, clever animals, capable of killing humans very easily. This needs to be nipped in the bud right now, as it sounds like she is doing it because she has been let away with it so long.

Is she a kicker as well as a biter? Could you tie her up with no rope allowance and get as close as possible to her, run your hands all over her, faff about with her rugs etc giving her a sharp smack/jab in the nose every time she tries to bite until she stops trying to attack you? Also remember to give her lots of praise and space when she DOES stand nice for you.

She doesn't kick, (touch wood) has never lifted a leg to me. She is lovely in every way, i stupidly thought she would never set out to actually hurt me but today was a full on attack and like other posters said, she meant it.

I know when she doesn't mean it because she hovers with her mouth but doesnt actually do anything, this gives me time to say firm vocal no and push her away

 

[AmyMay]

I totally agree with you in one respect and this is what i have been doing, but should i really have to do as mare says? i'm supposed to be the boss

It's not about doing what she says, just working around her. I'm all about good behaviour, but im also about trying to work around things too.

If you are dispassionate about this and adopt a business like attitude with her chances are within a couple of months or weeks the problem will vanish.

As another poster says don't set yourself up to fail - which essentially you've been doing since May. So she hasn't gone that quickly from warning to attack. ......

 

[doriangrey]

Ouchee! Without being contentious (but I do realise it sounds this way), how would NH deal with this?

 

[AnnaGHDT]

Hi,
Firstly, I'm really sorry to hear you have got hurt and really hope you are on the mend. Although I'm not surprised at all of the responses you have had, I am very saddened by them. Of course your safety is of paramount importance around your horse, and yes you should be able to enter the stable, etc without being worried, but getting violent is not likely to achieve the outcome that you are hoping for. As Abraham Lincoln wisely said, 'violence starts where knowledge ends'. The most important thing here is to try to establish WHY your mare has felt the need to respond to you in such an aggressive manner. If she is always bitey around rugging time....why?? She is trying to tell you something, horses do not bite for fun or because they think it will be funny to wind you up. They are usually biting in this circumstance because something doesn't feel right - perhaps the rug is causing pressure points somewhere that hasn't been noticed, perhaps it is a touch too big or small causing her discomfort, perhaps she is getting too hot under her rug when she wears it....and so the list goes on. If she is always aggressive around food, this too is her way of trying to tell you something. She may be resource guarding, which is an indication that all is not well. For some reason her food has become extremely high value to her, and she feels the need to completely protect it so that there is no chance of anyone taking it away from her. Perhaps she is being bullied in the field and not able to eat as much as she would like to? Perhaps she feels she doesn't have access to enough food (could she be spending chunks of the day without access to any forage?), and so when she is given a bowl full of it she desperately wants it. And again, the list can go on and on. Without finding the root cause of her aggressive tendencies you will never be able to completely rectify the problem, regardless of how hard some people may want you to hit her. Becoming aggressive back to her may stop the problem for a little while, or possibly even with you, but it will not be solved if someone else has to come in and handle her on your behalf who has not hit her, and she will become a ticking time bomb waiting for an opportune moment to go off. And in the mean time she isn't going to like you very much. You sound like a lovely owner and I really am so sorry that you have been hurt. Unfortunately she is a horse and so will not show 'remorse'....in her eyes she has not done anything wrong - she was simply guarding a resource (her food) that has become extremely important to her and she perceived you as a threat. There are lots of excellent behaviourists who could help you to work out the exact trigger of this problem and how to solve it....if you would like me to recommend someone near to you please pm me and I would be more than happy to.

 

[ConnieLove]

I'm shocked at how quickly she has gone from warnings to full on attack, i know i should have been firmer with the warnings but i thought i was on top of it...obviously not!

It's surprising I know. You have to know spot on what your horses warning signs are, some sutle ones will be indevidual to her.

When my big lad came to us back in May he had been molli-coddled by a love struck teenager. He was rude, bolshy, nappy and just escalating to a bigger problem. He would turn round and go to double barrel you if you interfered in any way that wasn't a match to his aggressive behavior.

6 months on and it's a thing of his past. The first month was full of showing him where my personal space was and what would happen if he invaded it. Now his life is black and white again, no grey. I am boss, he is my herd. He's much happier and doesn't even try it on. This has linked to a whole change of behavior to his life - much less stressful horse and rewarding to be a partnership with him, he tries his heart out for me. He always though he'd be happier being boss, but as a herd animal, they prefer to follow leadership. He just needed to be shown something worthy of leadership.

Be strong Remember you are a team together but YOU are boss. Not her.

 

[Ranyhyn]

I had a biter who meant it. Although I accepted WHY he did it, it still wasn't acceptable that he did and he got a thump for it.
In the beginning I did t realise the triggers and got bitten once, very badly. After that I used a mixture of sense (tying up and only handling him as was necessary) and appropriate punishment be it removal of things (if he biped while tied with a net I'd remove it and her go without) and having a rough dandy brush to greet his mouth when he whipped round.

 

[Mahoganybay]

You see I do think you kind of asked for it. You know the trigger points and you do need to work around them. For me that would mean tying up short to rug, and tying up the haynet before you fed.

I had a horse that could not tolerate any interference when eating - so I simply left her to it.

Exactly this, you know the mare does not like these things so personally i would avoid for now, tied up short for rugging, have all hay / feed bucket in stable ready and leave her to it.

Once you have established more of a bond then i would revisit it, but at the moment the mare does not trust you, she is not 'winning' if you do it this way and if you get into a battle with her, she will win i'm afraid. Why make things hard for yourself.

 

[yaffsimone1]

She ment that! I used to work in a rescue center and had a few of these in, best thing to do is pop a grazing muzzle on her and then teach her about rugs etc, going like hell for leather if she does go for you, hosepipe etc. I know it sounds mean but with some of the horses I had to deal with it was over come this or they got PTs too many "nice" horses there too rehome, sad but true.
I wouldn't be brothering her if she's eating she should be allowed to eat in peace.

Your right about letting her eat in peace and usually i do but you know what its like when your in a rush and you need to be getting on (sad excuse i know). Like another poster said i can work around it but its not putting the issue to bed, while i'm avoiding the situation she isn't being taught that biting is unacceptable. I think i will definately leave her in peace from now on at dinner time but when it comes to rugging if she does this again i'm going to have to let rip if need be.

Given how quickly she learns bad behaviour i'm hoping it will stop just as quick provided i remain consistent

 

[Shantara]

I wouldn't be worried about giving her physical punishment. Like others have said, she's much bigger and stronger than you!
My Shetland Cookie has been pretty good with biting (he's a young stallion, he likes to try things on) but over the past few days he's got REALLY nippy. I have been blocking his face and loudly saying "NO!" but yesterday he almost got me while I was grooming him, so I gave him a good hard whack, stamped my foot, growled and chased him away.
He didn't even think about biting when I groomed him today!

I have watched Ned and Cookie in the field a lot.
I noticed that Cookie bit Ned (and drew blood), so Ned cornered him and kicked him HARD. Just once, but it was hard and looked sore. I figured, I can't hit as hard as Ned can kick, but if I can give him a shock, it might stop him doing it to me too!

ETA - I can't stand horses that bite, it's one ground vice that really scares me, even a little Shetland!

Also, I hope you get better soon! That looks sore.

 

[siennamum]

I have a gelding who can be aggressive around food. I wouldn't pick this time to work on our 'relationship'. I leave him alone when he's eating (although it's only an issue in the stable) and it really isn't safe to start having a physical scrap with a horse who might come back at you.
In your place OP, I would leave mare alone when eating and if you think there are issues which need resolving, resolve them in 'safer' environments.
I can go and take my gelding's food away etc. but don't, I know it makes him anxious and stressed so training happens elsewhere.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I'm with Amymay on this-particularly if the mare is good in all other respects (although afraid that had she bitten me I would have reacted). Tie her up short, rug when tied up etc etc In fact tying her when doing anything in her stable and getting her to move over when you need her to, might be enough for her to realise you are in charge. Not everything has to be mega confrontational.

Sometimes its easier to pick your battles-from her POV, she's warned you repeatedly that she doesn't appreciate being handled at these times, but you have without changing anything so she's upped the anti. I had a pony that was evil when eating and have met several when working as a groom-I let them get on with it and although I can rug etc all of mine when they are eating, I try not to.

check her rugs fit well, consider her diet (some feeds can make them very grouchy/sensitive to touch-alfalfa for example).

 

[yaffsimone1]

Hi,
Firstly, I'm really sorry to hear you have got hurt and really hope you are on the mend. Although I'm not surprised at all of the responses you have had, I am very saddened by them. Of course your safety is of paramount importance around your horse, and yes you should be able to enter the stable, etc without being worried, but getting violent is not likely to achieve the outcome that you are hoping for. As Abraham Lincoln wisely said, 'violence starts where knowledge ends'. The most important thing here is to try to establish WHY your mare has felt the need to respond to you in such an aggressive manner. If she is always bitey around rugging time....why?? She is trying to tell you something, horses do not bite for fun or because they think it will be funny to wind you up. They are usually biting in this circumstance because something doesn't feel right - perhaps the rug is causing pressure points somewhere that hasn't been noticed, perhaps it is a touch too big or small causing her discomfort, perhaps she is getting too hot under her rug when she wears it....and so the list goes on. If she is always aggressive around food, this too is her way of trying to tell you something. She may be resource guarding, which is an indication that all is not well. For some reason her food has become extremely high value to her, and she feels the need to completely protect it so that there is no chance of anyone taking it away from her. Perhaps she is being bullied in the field and not able to eat as much as she would like to? Perhaps she feels she doesn't have access to enough food (could she be spending chunks of the day without access to any forage?), and so when she is given a bowl full of it she desperately wants it. And again, the list can go on and on. Without finding the root cause of her aggressive tendencies you will never be able to completely rectify the problem, regardless of how hard some people may want you to hit her. Becoming aggressive back to her may stop the problem for a little while, or possibly even with you, but it will not be solved if someone else has to come in and handle her on your behalf who has not hit her, and she will become a ticking time bomb waiting for an opportune moment to go off. And in the mean time she isn't going to like you very much. You sound like a lovely owner and I really am so sorry that you have been hurt. Unfortunately she is a horse and so will not show 'remorse'....in her eyes she has not done anything wrong - she was simply guarding a resource (her food) that has become extremely important to her and she perceived you as a threat. There are lots of excellent behaviourists who could help you to work out the exact trigger of this problem and how to solve it....if you would like me to recommend someone near to you please pm me and I would be more than happy to.

She came out of racing a couple of years ago and i suspect had been man handled when rugged etc. I can put my life on it that she wouldn't dream of biting the vet or farrier, around them she is like a true professional.

Grazing and access to food isn't a problem she has two 3 acre paddocks between her and one other mare (she is the more dominant one of the two), we are very fortunate to have plentifull all year round grazing. She has never been starved, although clearly protective of her food i don't think its because she thinks it wont be there tomorrow

 

[Auslander]

Hi,
Although I'm not surprised at all of the responses you have had, I am very saddened by them.

I'm more saddened that the OP was savagely bitten by her horse personally. Whilst people have suggested fighting fire with fire at the exact moment it happens, they have all, without exception, pointed out that they know why she is doing it, and suggesting ways to avoid the behaviour. I see that you are a professional behaviourist, and I respect your contribution (far more than you have respected the contribution of a number of experienced/professional horse people commenting here), but I disagree fundamentally with allowing a horse to get away with actually biting-hard. In an ideal world, we would all read the signs correctly, train horses correctly, and avoid getting ourselves in dangerous situations. However, when we are accidentally put in a situation, through misjudgment/error/foolishness - and a horse attacks, I feel that immediate action needs to be taken to let the horse know that the behaviour is unacceptable. It is DANGEROUS.