TB mare attacked me twice today :-(

Tie her up very short when you are rugging/grooming etc. If she 'defends' her haynet - take it away. Make sure the very last thing you do, before leaving her, is put her feed in. That is actually YOU calling the shots, not her. And don't feel bad about giving her a wallop, and a curse, if she does catch you. Having been on the receiving end of teeth, I know just how much that would have hurt. :(

ETA - she doesn't do it to the farrier etc because she is fully aware they will stand no nonsense .......... their whole body language and demeanor tells her that. Sadly, I think she does it to you because she knows she can. She needs to be taught that she can't.
 
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Annaghdt speaks a lot of sense but at the same time I don't agree with her....

Firstly yes find out her triggers....why does she threaten to bit,...or even bit?.....it's good to know these things.

However....... You are herd leader, therefore under no circumstances should you be bitten. You should not have to work round your horse....your horse works around you.
If my horse misbehaves and she knows she has done wrong then she will show she understands. She moves out of my space, lowers her head and asks to come back to me. I am recognised as 'head' therefore treated as such...... From what I can read your horse does not recognise your authority......but recognises a vets or farrier authority as she has been taught to respect these people.

You must gain authority over your horse.....push her away from you with body language, voice........but only use a slap (or wallop) if the horse actually hurts you.

Create rules
No eating food till it is in manger
No eating hay till it is tied up
Head stays forwards when being rugged
Standstill when rugging.....no moving around stable

These must be enforced at all times...... You will have a harder job as she is head mare in the field....... And is trying to become dominant over you........ Slapping the hell out of her will not win you her trust or respect.....
It sound like you will have a hard job on your hands...so I wish You all the luck!
 
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I appreciate every single one of the responses, i know i've pushed her buttons but her actions are not acceptable. My bruises are coming along nicely! Tomorrow is a new day and this is my plan of action (some of it do already but will be more consistent and forcefull):-

I must make her back up when i enter the stable (this is something i'm not consistent with)
Rugging, grooming and tacking up she will be tied up short in her stable (i hate the idea of restricting her but its got to be done). It wont be forever just untill she learns to be nice.
She will be left alone at feeding times.
I do praise her when has done well.
I'm not going to be so motherly but adopt a more business like approach (like another poster said). I work in construction my guys in the office wouldn't dream of crossing me so maybe i should adopt the same approach with her.


I'm not upset we have come along way since May but i am very annoyed with myself that i have let this issue get this far
 
dunkley said:
Tie her up very short when you are rugging/grooming etc. If she 'defends' her haynet - take it away. Make sure the very last thing you do, before leaving her, is put her feed in. That is actually YOU calling the shots, not her. And don't feel bad about giving her a wallop, and a curse, if she does catch you. Having been on the receiving end of teeth, I know just how much that would have hurt. :(
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Strangely enough hay isn't a problem, i take it away from her all the time with no arguments as she likes to take massive mouthfulls just before i put her bridle on!!
 
dunkley said:
Tie her up very short when you are rugging/grooming etc. If she 'defends' her haynet - take it away. Make sure the very last thing you do, before leaving her, is put her feed in. That is actually YOU calling the shots, not her. And don't feel bad about giving her a wallop, and a curse, if she does catch you. Having been on the receiving end of teeth, I know just how much that would have hurt. :(

ETA - she doesn't do it to the farrier etc because she is fully aware they will stand no nonsense .......... their whole body language and demeanor tells her that. Sadly, I think she does it to you because she knows she can. She needs to be taught that she can't.
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It hurt, i've been bitten before but this is the worst ever. I've got quite a high pain threshold but this made my eyes water and my vision go white!
 
yaffsimone1 said:
Rugging, grooming and tacking up she will be tied up short in her stable (i hate the idea of restricting her but its got to be done). It wont be forever just untill she learns to be nice.
She will be left alone at feeding times.
I do praise her when has done well.
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cool :) make her move over, do not duck under her neck (its quite submissive) and always initiate contact-preferably by touching her nose/head. even if you walk up to her in the field, stroke her nose then walk away again-its a 'boss' horse thing to do.
 
OP- by tying her up short, you are not restricting her. You are protecting yourself, and actually protecting her. In an ideal world, all our horses would stand like rocks while we do exactly what we want to them in the stable. However, if you know she can be aggressive, don't put her in the position whereby she can bite you, and end up punished.
 
I agree with amymay - I would never ever let my horse threaten me, let alone bite or kick, bit equally once I've given him his feed I leave him to it. He used to be verging on nippy an would openly threaten to kick with food when I got him - he soon stopped, both because I went loopy at him for daring, and because he knows once I've made him get out of my space and back up to put his feed into his stable, he is left to eat it. If I'm not interfering there's nothing to be defensive about.
 
i am saddened that almost everyone says hitting is the answer.. my mare is an angel and i can do anything with her, i could groom her, rug her, pick her feet out all while she is eating her feed BUT why would i? i get her in, leave her to eat her feed while i do other jobs and then go in and groom, rug etc.....i see no point in deliberatly aggravating a horse when they are eating. yes they SHOULD allow us to do anything at any time but respect your horse, let her eat in peace and tie her up short when you rug her, and be aware of what she is doing and growl at her if she tries to bite... be consistant and once she is rugged and is calm, make a fuss of her....
 
She never set out to hurt you, she warned you in the animal way but as humans are not as tough as what we think we are we get hurt. If she wanted to hurt you trust me she would have given you more than a graze. If she was eating buttercups and another herd member came along of the lower pecking order she would do the same to them, she may have had to fight for her feed in the past as she was at the bottom of the pecking order. So no i do not agree with battering, you need join up, even lunging to show her you are the leader, the leader makes the legs move, got it, then she should accept the leader has now taken her to feed and told her she can eat. But dont be a bee in the eating, she isnt going to learn overnight, but you got to sort out the leadership without a whip.
 
Khalswitz he only backs up because he sees you as the leader, everything we do around the that is good is because they see us as their leader, with no leadership we have problems, and a good leader does not cause pain it creates safety and security for the herd
 
amymay said:
It's not about doing what she says, just working around her. I'm all about good behaviour, but im also about trying to work around things too.

If you are dispassionate about this and adopt a business like attitude with her chances are within a couple of months or weeks the problem will vanish.

As another poster says don't set yourself up to fail - which essentially you've been doing since May. So she hasn't gone that quickly from warning to attack. ......
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I agree with this.

I'm not noted for being soft with the horses and while smack if necessary but this sounds a bit different.
I wonder why this horse is behaving in this way? I bought a 4 yr old many years ago, who was extremely proud of her food, even her hay. She was dangerous to go into the stable with when she first came in, so I put her hay and bucket into the stable before bringing her in, then luckily we had a walk-way behind the stable separated by just the concrete manger and strong wire. I stood behind the wire, so that she got used to me being there but couldn't do any damage. I knew that this horse was proud of her food because she had been kept very short in a previous home. eventually she realised that she always got enough to eat with me. This horse was later found to be unable to digest sugar and cereals and he behaviour improved dramatically when I cut them out of her diet.
 
putasocinit said:
She never set out to hurt you, she warned you in the animal way but as humans are not as tough as what we think we are we get hurt. If she wanted to hurt you trust me she would have given you more than a graze. If she was eating buttercups and another herd member came along of the lower pecking order she would do the same to them, she may have had to fight for her feed in the past as she was at the bottom of the pecking order. So no i do not agree with battering, you need join up, even lunging to show her you are the leader, the leader makes the legs move, got it, then she should accept the leader has now taken her to feed and told her she can eat. But dont be a bee in the eating, she isnt going to learn overnight, but you got to sort out the leadership without a whip.
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All very interesting, but tell me - how do you deal with a horse coming at yo with its mouth wide open, ready to sink its teeth into you. As you point out - a horse that is higher in the pecking order would deal firmly with a lower ranking member taking liberties, and horses establish their hierarchy with teeth and heels. NO-one is saying that beating this horse will solve all her problems, but they are saying that WHEN she bites, she should not be allowed to get away with it. I very rarely hit my horses - and the times I have done, it has usually been when they are new to me, and do something that is dangerous/unacceptable. My No1 horse, who is quite dominant with other horses (the herd leader, and takes no crap from the others) is very polite and well adjusted, nickers at me when I talk to him, and follows me round like a large dog. I can do anything to him with him loose in the field, and he is respectful of my space, without being fearful. He was a bit of a nightmare when I got him for being bargy, bolshy and just plain rude - he had couple of wallops in the early days, and since then, he has been an angel. He's far happier with boundaries established.
 
I have a pony that bites when he is mounted or girthed up, he is now 28 and I have him since he was 12. Smacking him makes no difference what so ever, its annoying but you learn to avoid it and a when usually I get caught I am annoyed with my self. I have also had a TB that hated being rugged, being tactful when rugging always putting them on in quarters, not dragging them across the back as they have more sensitive skins and finding a rug that fits helps.
Horses on racing yards lead very unnatural lives and have very unnatural feeding patterns and what has caused the behaviour was probably done when she was very young and trying to whack her to dominate her may make her see you more as a threat. Being a herd leader is not always aggression and there may be something about you that does not trust, so I would remove the conflict from the situation which will make it safer for you. Perhaps the stable is her ' conflict space', some horses are beaten in their boxes, and its not natural for them to live in a box. I have known a horse on a livery yard be an absolute g*t in the stable but an angel outside it with handling and grooming. I would work on establishing your personal space and control outside the conflict zone and ask for an experts help.
 
Oh dear :( I would never condone lashing out in anger but sometimes a telling off is necessary - the fact is she is a big animal and she MEANT that, going by the state of your leg! As others have said, you need to really tell her off and do it immediately. That kind of thing is not to be tolerated. Also, if you know she's particularly bad when you do certain things, try and find a way of making sure she can't get at you when you're doing them - ie. by tying her up very short.

My boy tried to kick out at me when I picked his back foot up tonight. He got a swift wallop on the backside and looked suitably shamefaced.

Hope your bruise heals quickly!
 
I may get utterly flamed for this but I am going to say it anyway.

Sometimes a horse needs a consequence and it needs to be one that is instant and understandable...sometimes a well times smack will do the trick but I have known a few mares like this over the years and they can be very difficult as the more they get away with it, the more they know they actually do have the ability to hurt you and get you away from them. With animals this big, it needs to be the other way around...they need to know that they must move away from you.

Now...may get flamed again but hey ho. It seems to me from what you describe that your mare wouldn't actually feel that scared if you did give her a whollop??? Sounds like she's just learned to do the right thing and stand in the corner but not really respect that at all and continue with previous behaviour almost immediately.

I have employed a couple of different tactics with this kind of thing in the past and neither involved physical contact with the horse. One was a mare that would bolt through the stable door repeatedly hurting people badly as she did so. She would stand at the back of the stable when you asked her to but as soon as the door was cracked open she would charge. I made sure one morning that her bed was made extra thick with huge banks and right up to the door. When the door was opened I pulled a balloon and pin from behind my back and popped it in front of her face as she charged. She did have a massive reaction to it and was shaking for a good 10 minutes, but she never ever charged the stable door again. She never showed any fear for me or anyone else...she understood the lesson, end of.

Another was a biter....bit me so hard on the boob that she lifted me off the floor. I had a foghorn and used that with her.

If I had your mare and she did that to me, I wouldn't even bother giving her a smack or a whack as It doesn't sound like she'd be that bothered by it. Instead, I would use the air can I was given once for the dogs. Never needed it with the dogs so not sure why MIL bought it, but basically, it is a little gas canister that when you press it, releases a very highly pressurised shot of air. No loud noise, no ability to inflict pain, but something that would give an instant consequence and one that no animal wants repeated. I have seen it work with dogs to the point that people only have to reach for their pocket and the dog knows what's coming and instantly behaves. I would use this with your horse. I would not have her tied up as chances are she would poo herself and cower in the back of the stable for a while wondering what the hell just happened. THAT is the kind of reaction you need to get from her if you want her to learn that she CANNOT bite you like that again.

I am not against NH, I am always against violence BUT....I will NOT allow people to be hurt by rude, nasty or obnoxious horses. They need to be told in no uncertain terms that whatever they are doing is wrong.

If anyone disagrees, so be it, I am not the font of all equine knowledge, far from it but...I do think it is very very important not to allow horses to behave badly. None of us can ever guarantee the future of our horses if something should happen to us. We can put plans in place, but never guarantee unless we have them PTS. So...if one day, for whatever reason, your horse had to be in the hands of someone else, you don't can't be sure that this behaviour won't get your horse the beating of a lifetime by some bar steward. There are people out there that think nothing of beating the living daylights out of a horse for a minor blip in behaviour, so a nasty bite can get a horse seriously battered by some people. I like to know the horses in my care will never feel the wrath of any unsavoury person should I ever be unable to care for them for whatever reason.

You can get the air cans at most pet shops and they are very inexpensive. All I will say is try and have your feet out of the way of hers...she's likely to spook big!

I reiterate, I do NOT condone violence against horses...quite the opposite. I think one BIG lesson that never needs repeating is far better than repeated smacking or whacking.

Good luck OP and get yourself a stiff drink. I bet those bites hurt like hell.
 
Also, there is a pony on the yard that is always biting her owners. Nothing ever really nasty, but painful little nips. I groom, plait and clip this pony and yes she is quirky, but she has never nipped me and hasn't actually tried to since about the 3rd attempt. She is very quick, but if we know that, we have knowledge. Knowledge is power. With her, I strapped a metal curry comb to my left elbow. I got to her shoulder grooming her and as expected, she turned to nip...nose meeting metal curry comb = no damage or injury, but a VERY unpleasant and unexpected sensation. She tried again a few days later and I flicked her on the soft of her nostril (my usual thing for nippers). 3rd time, flick on nostril and she's never tried to nip me again. I don't let her faff about or fidget when I am doing anything with her and she has learned to just relax. Her owners however will tell her off one day and then just let her attempt it but stay out of the way the next (usually because in a hurry and fed up of trying to tell her off). She behaves for me, she doesn't for them. I am consistent in my demand for manners, they are not. It doesn't take Einsteins brain to figure out how simple it is.
 
fight aggressive behaviour with aggressive behaviour and you end up with more aggression or fear defense.

GG's ideas appeal to me as they are thinking outside the box and will make the mare back of NOT fight back.

we have a mare at work who is really very sweet but if you do anything that worries her and she gets ready to fight back-I work very hard not to give her any reason to fight as she flits between panic and calm in less than a blink of an eye-it is not her fault that someone has treated her bad enough that she feels the needs to defend herself.

personally I leave horses to finish their food in peace though the same as dogs though
 
well done for taking action and not baby-ing her even more. My horse grabbed me on my arm once..he was sleeping and i didn't realise, walked up and touched his side. I was so shocked, I didn't do anything! He'd never done it before and he's never done it since, I think I must've made him jump or something..so I get where you're coming from at being shocked. Hope things improve so you can have a happier relationship :)
 
twiggy2 said:
fight aggressive behaviour with aggressive behaviour and you end up with more aggression or fear defense.

GG's ideas appeal to me as they are thinking outside the box and will make the mare back of NOT fight back.

we have a mare at work who is really very sweet but if you do anything that worries her and she gets ready to fight back-I work very hard not to give her any reason to fight as she flits between panic and calm in less than a blink of an eye-it is not her fault that someone has treated her bad enough that she feels the needs to defend herself.

personally I leave horses to finish their food in peace though the same as dogs though
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She sounds like a tricky one. Bless her, it really saddens me to see animals so damaged by people.

I do tend to leave animals to eat unbothered as well. I wouldn't find it easy to digest my food if someone was scratching my back or fiddling with my clothes :-)
 
Something that hasn't been mentioned here but had been suggested before once is just going loopy, not hitting or slapping but just acting in a way she's never seen you act before.

I shared a mare that wasn't nasty or dangerous but she was lead mare, big and used to getting her own way and her favourite trick was eating from the haynet while I was trying to put it up (yes I should have it up while she wasn't in the stable but when she was already in it seemed a faff to take her out and tie her up while I put it in and a didn't see why she couldn't have some manners for 2 minutes while I tied it up).

This resulted in me getting skinned hands from her pulling the rope from my hands and one day I got fed up, yelled 'it's my hay!!' and went blobloblobl!!, waving my arms around like a nutter making myself big and loud, and I tell you what she didn't half step back. You could have beaten this mare until the cows came home and she wouldn't have batted an eyelid but make her think you'd gone bat-**** crazy and she paid attention, she was old and had seen it all before until someone acted in a way she'd never seen before. I only had to do it twice before she got the message.

Wouldn't work for a horse that was confrontational I wouldn't think, or one likely to double barrel the mad thing in their stable but it's a good trick to have in the bag.
 
_GG_ said:
I may get utterly flamed for this but I am going to say it anyway.

Sometimes a horse needs a consequence and it needs to be one that is instant and understandable...sometimes a well times smack will do the trick but I have known a few mares like this over the years and they can be very difficult as the more they get away with it, the more they know they actually do have the ability to hurt you and get you away from them. With animals this big, it needs to be the other way around...they need to know that they must move away from you.

Now...may get flamed again but hey ho. It seems to me from what you describe that your mare wouldn't actually feel that scared if you did give her a whollop??? Sounds like she's just learned to do the right thing and stand in the corner but not really respect that at all and continue with previous behaviour almost immediately.

I have employed a couple of different tactics with this kind of thing in the past and neither involved physical contact with the horse. One was a mare that would bolt through the stable door repeatedly hurting people badly as she did so. She would stand at the back of the stable when you asked her to but as soon as the door was cracked open she would charge. I made sure one morning that her bed was made extra thick with huge banks and right up to the door. When the door was opened I pulled a balloon and pin from behind my back and popped it in front of her face as she charged. She did have a massive reaction to it and was shaking for a good 10 minutes, but she never ever charged the stable door again. She never showed any fear for me or anyone else...she understood the lesson, end of.

Another was a biter....bit me so hard on the boob that she lifted me off the floor. I had a foghorn and used that with her.

If I had your mare and she did that to me, I wouldn't even bother giving her a smack or a whack as It doesn't sound like she'd be that bothered by it. Instead, I would use the air can I was given once for the dogs. Never needed it with the dogs so not sure why MIL bought it, but basically, it is a little gas canister that when you press it, releases a very highly pressurised shot of air. No loud noise, no ability to inflict pain, but something that would give an instant consequence and one that no animal wants repeated. I have seen it work with dogs to the point that people only have to reach for their pocket and the dog knows what's coming and instantly behaves. I would use this with your horse. I would not have her tied up as chances are she would poo herself and cower in the back of the stable for a while wondering what the hell just happened. THAT is the kind of reaction you need to get from her if you want her to learn that she CANNOT bite you like that again.

I am not against NH, I am always against violence BUT....I will NOT allow people to be hurt by rude, nasty or obnoxious horses. They need to be told in no uncertain terms that whatever they are doing is wrong.

If anyone disagrees, so be it, I am not the font of all equine knowledge, far from it but...I do think it is very very important not to allow horses to behave badly. None of us can ever guarantee the future of our horses if something should happen to us. We can put plans in place, but never guarantee unless we have them PTS. So...if one day, for whatever reason, your horse had to be in the hands of someone else, you don't can't be sure that this behaviour won't get your horse the beating of a lifetime by some bar steward. There are people out there that think nothing of beating the living daylights out of a horse for a minor blip in behaviour, so a nasty bite can get a horse seriously battered by some people. I like to know the horses in my care will never feel the wrath of any unsavoury person should I ever be unable to care for them for whatever reason.

You can get the air cans at most pet shops and they are very inexpensive. All I will say is try and have your feet out of the way of hers...she's likely to spook big!

I reiterate, I do NOT condone violence against horses...quite the opposite. I think one BIG lesson that never needs repeating is far better than repeated smacking or whacking.

Good luck OP and get yourself a stiff drink. I bet those bites hurt like hell.
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Some inspired ideas there GG! I agree that repeated smacking won't solve anything btw - my argument is purely that there need to be instantaneous repercussions for a horse that bites - preferably at the point it comes at you, not after the teeth are firmly embedded. I favour the "flick a bit of hosepipe at an approaching set of jaws", but your arsenal of smarts works for me too! I 'think' we are singing off the same hymn sheet, in that we want the horse to think "OMGWHATHAPPENEDTHERE- not doing that again" - especially like the Pet Corrector spray idea. I even have one, but I wont get to use it on the horses, because they are all a bunch of kiss-asses!
 
I was only 11 at the time, but when my first pony bit me hard like that -for no other reason than being bolshy and rude-I grabbed the ear closest to me and bit it bloody hard! She half-squealed and I got hair in my teeth but 8 years on I've still got her and she's never done it since!! Has gone to nip sometimes but a sharp growl stops her in her tracks.
I sold her a few weeks ago but I bought another mare in May '12 and in the early days of having her I was giving her a bath and she bit me as I walked around the front of her to wash the other side.. again a short sharp shock via a shout and a bloody hard slap she was an angel for the rest of the time I had her.

I have recently got a 16yr old ex-racer on loan (but worked with her for 2 years prior) and she tries to bit when you girth her up/do up the chest straps on a rug. A growl stops her doing it so she pulls a face at someone else, if she does manage to catch you she knows it was wrong and leaps out the way pretty damn fast to avoid a smack! She has managed to get me once on the side when I missed her coming at me but it was only a 'light' bite! Again a growl and smack and now she just pulls a face at me.

I leave all my horses alone when they're eating, as I wouldn't want someone bothering me if I was eating(!) but I do expect them to let me in the stable to put up nets etc whilst they're doing so. Luckily none of mine are food proud, and the one we had that was (now on retirement livery) was always left be.
 
I know it's not much help, but I used to have a gelding who would bite or threaten to bite all the time. He would lower and snake his head with his ears flat back. There was no apparent trigger for it. The worst was one day when I was mucking him out and he launched across the stable at me like lightening and bit me on my hip/arse so badly that I had bruising and swelling which was measured at 8 inches by 6 inches. I still have a lump there to this day (it was 9 years ago that he bit me. As it was, I moved yards which was nothing to do with this and he never did it again. I had him at three yards following the yard that he was aggressive at and he was an angel at all of them. I have no idea what the trigger was to this day.
 
If she had attacked you for no reason I could quite understand you giving her a firm wallop and you being all indignant, BUT....you clearly do know that the mare has an issue with feeding and rugging, and at this late stage in the day, you are not going to change it....and all the thumping and shouting at her will not change that. I had a little pony that would give you both back feet if you dared to so much as look at her feed bucket....the solution? Let her eat in peace....would YOU want someone buggering about with you whilst you tried to eat your dinner?
Tie her short to rug, put the haynet in BEFORE you feed and then leave the poor thing in peace!
 
I'm another who agrees with AmyMay. While I'm sorry you got hurt I do think you made a big error of judgement and are at least partly to blame for what happened. Her behaviour was unacceptable, but you'd been warned it was on the cards & could have removed the opportunity but chose not to.

We all make mistakes though, so chalk it up to experience. A couple of months ago I got a nasty bite from one of mine, and I was actually lucky because if had been an inch higher I think he'd have taken my thumb off. I ended up having x-rays & the hospital were amazed it wasn't broken - the swelling meant I couldn't move any of my fingers & had travelled nearly up to my elbow, the bruising when it eventually came out went up to the base of my fingers & down half of my forearm. However I was more annoyed with myself than him because I'd known he was in a very funny mood (what we refer to as Planet Jimmy, the lights are on but no-one's home) & likely to react rather than think, but like an utter idiot I moved to touch his neighbour when I wasn't properly in his line of sight. His reaction was to snap at the movement. Once he realised his mistake he let go immediately & shot to the back of the box while I ran out to shove my hand under the yard tap & try not to faint! He was still there 10 minutes later when I went back to shut the door - beyond yelling a few choice swear words when he first got me he wasn't punished, partly because it was more my fault than his & partly because he effectively punished himself. My mistake was possibly even more stupid than yours, I know this horse inside out & I know that when he's like this I need to be careful yet like a complete idiot I triggered his behaviour by my actions. Ironically he's normally one of the kindest, gentlest horses you could wish for & won't bite a person no matter what you do, but when he gets that zoned out look things are very different.
 
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