TB mare attacked me twice today :-(

Bit late to the thread but I have found when dealing with bolshy horses you have to behave like a horse. Try and gem up on wild horse behaviour a little - obviously you don't want to be engaging in a full on fight but some subtle signs often work wonders. With one particular bolshy mare she needed to learn my space and not to walk literally all over me - I had to make myself big and dominating - arms wide, square on and firm voice. And with biting, kicking I do go for the very quick sharp reprimand exactly like an elder horse would reprimand a youngster. If they continue to take a ' stance' I freeze them out, make them step back out of my security and leadership. once they show signs of relaxing and acceptance I purposefully walk away and let them carry on. I do however don't like to do this once they are feeding because it is unnecessary and many horses have been bullied by other horses when younger and have learnt a defence mechanism. I do however insist they do not mob me for a bucket and do not get it until they stand back. Some horses are just sensitive and find being fiddled with annoying and a few grumpy faces can't be helped. An actual bite is a big no and will be punished by a sharp smack (or a bite as they see it) - if you don't how do they know it is unacceptable? You can't discuss it rationally with a horse - you have to talk in their language.
 
Nari said:
I'm another who agrees with AmyMay. While I'm sorry you got hurt I do think you made a big error of judgement and are at least partly to blame for what happened. Her behaviour was unacceptable, but you'd been warned it was on the cards & could have removed the opportunity but chose not to.

We all make mistakes though, so chalk it up to experience. A couple of months ago I got a nasty bite from one of mine, and I was actually lucky because if had been an inch higher I think he'd have taken my thumb off. I ended up having x-rays & the hospital were amazed it wasn't broken - the swelling meant I couldn't move any of my fingers & had travelled nearly up to my elbow, the bruising when it eventually came out went up to the base of my fingers & down half of my forearm. However I was more annoyed with myself than him because I'd known he was in a very funny mood (what we refer to as Planet Jimmy, the lights are on but no-one's home) & likely to react rather than think, but like an utter idiot I moved to touch his neighbour when I wasn't properly in his line of sight. His reaction was to snap at the movement. Once he realised his mistake he let go immediately & shot to the back of the box while I ran out to shove my hand under the yard tap & try not to faint! He was still there 10 minutes later when I went back to shut the door - beyond yelling a few choice swear words when he first got me he wasn't punished, partly because it was more my fault than his & partly because he effectively punished himself. My mistake was possibly even more stupid than yours, I know this horse inside out & I know that when he's like this I need to be careful yet like a complete idiot I triggered his behaviour by my actions. Ironically he's normally one of the kindest, gentlest horses you could wish for & won't bite a person no matter what you do, but when he gets that zoned out look things are very different.
Click to expand...

I think that is such a good example of knowing the horse and understanding their motive for the attack and whether it's done as an aggressiveness moment or panic, worry etc. I would also add that if the horse is a confirmed biter stuck in his ways I would minimise the risk to myself/others and not create that circumstance that stresses the horse if it can be avoided.
 
Auslander said:
Some inspired ideas there GG! I agree that repeated smacking won't solve anything btw - my argument is purely that there need to be instantaneous repercussions for a horse that bites - preferably at the point it comes at you, not after the teeth are firmly embedded. I favour the "flick a bit of hosepipe at an approaching set of jaws", but your arsenal of smarts works for me too! I 'think' we are singing off the same hymn sheet, in that we want the horse to think "OMGWHATHAPPENEDTHERE- not doing that again" - especially like the Pet Corrector spray idea. I even have one, but I wont get to use it on the horses, because they are all a bunch of kiss-asses!
Click to expand...

Yep. I also like the idea of going a bit loopy looo on them too. There's a pony locally that is a bit of a bum turner on you. It's his bum....I hadn't even realised it until reading this thread but I do just kind of stand there and go BLALISHGVUJKHVGUYFKJHVUKYGVL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! with my whole body, lol. Scares the life out of him and he just kind of goes, "alright....calm down...I'll just stand still then" :-)
 
I am sorry you got hurt, that looks very sore indeed :(

I am going to disagree with most other people on the thread, and I'll give you my reasons :)
First of all, horses are not generally aggressive, they bite in defence when they feel threatened. They tend to feel under threat for a number of different reasons. I'll go through them :) First of all, like us, they tend to feel particularly vulnerable when they're in pain or discomfort, or when they're anticipating pain or discomfort - this is the most dangerous situation. A horse who objects - and has previously voiced her concern by ears back or head threats - when rugs are being done up has given notice that she finds this uncomfortable, or has found it uncomfortable in the past. Horses who have or have previously had ulcers fall in to this group, although girthy horses generally do.
Secondly, horses feel more threatened in situations where they believe resources essential to their survival are under threat. Resources most important to a horse are (a) the ability to flee danger, (b) food and (c) personal space. In a stable, the horse cannot flee, and horses who have personal space issues are already feeling edgy and vulnerable. This is often particularly bad in TBs who have raced, as they spend a lot of time in a small space and the space itself becomes very important to them. It is not helped that they are often handled by young, clumsy and inexperienced handlers, who have limited time to spend doing rugs/girths/tack up as carefully and gently as the horse needs. So the horse anticipates rough handling, and when a new handler comes along who doesn't know the background, they are often the ones who suffer from the "out of the blue" attack (it's almost never out of the blue - the horse has usually been giving progressively louder hints that they're unhappy, all of which have been either ignored (just keep on doing up the rug, push the horse's head out of the way, growl at them if they put ears back etc.).
TBs who have been stabled a lot also often have resource issues around food, because it's often been rationed in some way - they often haven't had ad-lib forage, so they become defensive around food. I see you've said she has plenty of grass - the grass, although plentiful at the moment, is not the same as summer grass, and a lot of horses are finding it less satisfying - it is exactly the time of year when you find horses much grumpier even though they appear to be eating plenty. If your problem happened just after bringing your horse in from the field, consider just letting her chill out with a haynet for 20 minutes in the stable before handling/doing rugs etc.

Put all of this together, and you have a horse who is in a confined space where they can't get away from anything that worries them, who feels unhappy about having rugs done in this space, who has food guarging issues, and whose communications about their worry have been either punished or ignored.
In a human, we'd all recognise that adds up to a flashpoint...

If you punish the biting with a slap, you have now shut down another message from the horse, and you have identified yourself as a severe potential threat in the horse's eyes.
If you're clever enough to punish it without the horse associating the punishment with you, you have now made the stable an even more dangerous place in the horse's mind (I have had to work with several horses who wouldn't go into a stable for reasons similar to this), and if they do go into the stable, they are even more on guard and ready to defend themselves. And since they know their quieter communications are ignored, they just skip all the "I am rather worried here" communications and go straight for biting or lunging.

So what's your choice? Well, I would definitely not advise retaliation to anybody, since it's a personal safety issue. The horse knows you've punished biting - but they're big animals and they do have a level above biting. Push 'em hard enough, and you'll get to see it. Punishment always has "fallout", it's just not necessarily what we expect.

Leave a resource guarding horse to eat in peace. Try to find a stable where they feel safe - some of the problems can stem from having other horses too close on either side, some horses feel more secure in open stables, some in American barn stables. Most resource guarding horses are better with ad-lib hay, and if hay nets/feed need to be replaced, don't do it with the horse in the stable.
It is possible to change a horse's associations with being rugged, provided there isn't a discomfort issue - sometimes doing the whole process very slowly can work well, and it is essential to watch the horse's reactions while doing it. If you can't take the time to work on this, the horse should be tied up to be rugged.
Bear in mind when working with the horse that they are on edge in their stable, so put safety first - rather than waiting for something to go wrong and then shouting/slapping/jumping up and down or otherwise frightening the horse.
And just because a horse doesn't appear to be afraid doesn't mean they're not - we're crap at reading fear in horses - just like humans, some very frightened horses may actually appear more angry/defiant to us.
 
Last edited:
My filly battered my stomach once as she attacked me over food....i couldnt sit down for a week - that was AFTER she felt the full force of a short whip when she came at me again - yes i battered her and really meant it.

She did it again and got another thrashing - nowadays we have a good understanding...!, she has an attitude problem but its finally being channeled....ive no issues with a good pasting if they are coming at you with teeth and hooves...!!! they are big animals and can kill!...
 
Putasocinit - that was my point, he used to be a menace, but knows I am boss and won't put up with it. However I also leave him well alone when he's eating so as not to push the issue too far...

I did mention going loopy earlier - waving my arms about, growling and foot stamping work a treat on my boy when he needs telling. I think I've hit him once the whole time I've had him - and that was when he pulled a sly on and latched his teeth around my kneecap. That is a pure dominance thing - it's what stallions do to each other whenfighting - and I didn't back off on that one. I did give him a smack, and then pinched his knees repeatedly until he was backing up and moving his feet for me. Never needed to hit him again - just lower my voice or blow out hard or stamp my foot and that is my warning to him!!

I don't condone lashing out in anger, but whoever says horses aren't violent has never watched horses in a field! If one breaks the dominance hierarchy, it's warnings first, but they will back it up. If the five year old in with my horse tries to push him out the way, my horse would HAVE him - teeth and feet, sometimes fronts as well! So I don't agree that horses are nonviolent. I think they are nonviolent when there is order - as am I. When my horse tries to hurt me he has stepped over the line, and I'll do what any other boss horse would do - only I am not as strong.
 
I have a fair few TBs here and I have to say some of them are sensitive types and quirky. Only one was ever food aggressive, she isn't now as I faced her squarely and did a few $%£"**!?$% at her and with my body language forced her to retreat. I don't think she'd ever had anyone raising their voice to her before as it seemed to come as quite a shock to her. She's now very good at being fed and will wait her turn until I get the feed scoop in her bucket (all my feed buckets are secured to fence posts in my fields, I feed along the fencelines on the outside of my fields).

Another is sensitive to having her rug putting on. She's an enormous horse so when she first came I did used to tie her up shortly but now she's been here for years I know what she's like and I just have to raise a finger and say her name and she stops with her silly threatening behaviour. She'd never do anything to anyone but she is very intimidating to people who don't know her. I never ask anyone else to put her rug on however.

I'm with Amymay et al who say why get into battles that are not necessary. Yes you should be able to do whatever with a horse when it's eating, but is it the end of the world if you can't? I have always left my horses alone when they are eating, it's respect more than anything else and I certainly don't feel the need to show them who's boss at every opportunity. You did miss the early warning signs and you have been a bit wishy washy about what's allowed and what's not, you're human and it happens. For best results, be fair and be very clear about what's expected and what won't be tolerated. I make it very easy for my horses to do right, I don't set them up to fail and I try to make sure I never put them in a situation where they are ever unsure about what their correct course of action/reaction should be.

Looks pretty sore; hope the throbbing goes away soon.
 
Brightbay said:
I am sorry you got hurt, that looks very sore indeed :(

I am going to disagree with most other people on the thread, and I'll give you my reasons :)
First of all, horses are not generally aggressive, they bite in defence when they feel threatened. They tend to feel under threat for a number of different reasons. I'll go through them :) First of all, like us, they tend to feel particularly vulnerable when they're in pain or discomfort, or when they're anticipating pain or discomfort - this is the most dangerous situation. A horse who objects - and has previously voiced her concern by ears back or head threats - when rugs are being done up has given notice that she finds this uncomfortable, or has found it uncomfortable in the past. Horses who have or have previously had ulcers fall in to this group, although girthy horses generally do.
Secondly, horses feel more threatened in situations where they believe resources essential to their survival are under threat. Resources most important to a horse are (a) the ability to flee danger, (b) food and (c) personal space. In a stable, the horse cannot flee, and horses who have personal space issues are already feeling edgy and vulnerable. This is often particularly bad in TBs who have raced, as they spend a lot of time in a small space and the space itself becomes very important to them. It is not helped that they are often handled by young, clumsy and inexperienced handlers, who have limited time to spend doing rugs/girths/tack up as carefully and gently as the horse needs. So the horse anticipates rough handling, and when a new handler comes along who doesn't know the background, they are often the ones who suffer from the "out of the blue" attack (it's almost never out of the blue - the horse has usually been giving progressively louder hints that they're unhappy, all of which have been either ignored (just keep on doing up the rug, push the horse's head out of the way, growl at them if they put ears back etc.).
TBs who have been stabled a lot also often have resource issues around food, because it's often been rationed in some way - they often haven't had ad-lib forage, so they become defensive around food. I see you've said she has plenty of grass - the grass, although plentiful at the moment, is not the same as summer grass, and a lot of horses are finding it less satisfying - it is exactly the time of year when you find horses much grumpier even though they appear to be eating plenty. If your problem happened just after bringing your horse in from the field, consider just letting her chill out with a haynet for 20 minutes in the stable before handling/doing rugs etc.

Put all of this together, and you have a horse who is in a confined space where they can't get away from anything that worries them, who feels unhappy about having rugs done in this space, who has food guarging issues, and whose communications about their worry have been either punished or ignored.
In a human, we'd all recognise that adds up to a flashpoint...

If you punish the biting with a slap, you have now shut down another message from the horse, and you have identified yourself as a severe potential threat in the horse's eyes.
If you're clever enough to punish it without the horse associating the punishment with you, you have now made the stable an even more dangerous place in the horse's mind (I have had to work with several horses who wouldn't go into a stable for reasons similar to this), and if they do go into the stable, they are even more on guard and ready to defend themselves. And since they know their quieter communications are ignored, they just skip all the "I am rather worried here" communications and go straight for biting or lunging.

So what's your choice? Well, I would definitely not advise retaliation to anybody, since it's a personal safety issue. The horse knows you've punished biting - but they're big animals and they do have a level above biting. Push 'em hard enough, and you'll get to see it. Punishment always has "fallout", it's just not necessarily what we expect.

Leave a resource guarding horse to eat in peace. Try to find a stable where they feel safe - some of the problems can stem from having other horses too close on either side, some horses feel more secure in open stables, some in American barn stables. Most resource guarding horses are better with ad-lib hay, and if hay nets/feed need to be replaced, don't do it with the horse in the stable.
It is possible to change a horse's associations with being rugged, provided there isn't a discomfort issue - sometimes doing the whole process very slowly can work well, and it is essential to watch the horse's reactions while doing it. If you can't take the time to work on this, the horse should be tied up to be rugged.
Bear in mind when working with the horse that they are on edge in their stable, so put safety first - rather than waiting for something to go wrong and then shouting/slapping/jumping up and down or otherwise frightening the horse.
And just because a horse doesn't appear to be afraid doesn't mean they're not - we're crap at reading fear in horses - just like humans, some very frightened horses may actually appear more angry/defiant to us.
Click to expand...

Excellent post Brightbay, I totally agree :)
 
AnnaGHDT said:
Hi,
Firstly, I'm really sorry to hear you have got hurt and really hope you are on the mend. Although I'm not surprised at all of the responses you have had, I am very saddened by them. Of course your safety is of paramount importance around your horse, and yes you should be able to enter the stable, etc without being worried, but getting violent is not likely to achieve the outcome that you are hoping for. As Abraham Lincoln wisely said, 'violence starts where knowledge ends'. The most important thing here is to try to establish WHY your mare has felt the need to respond to you in such an aggressive manner. If she is always bitey around rugging time....why?? She is trying to tell you something, horses do not bite for fun or because they think it will be funny to wind you up. They are usually biting in this circumstance because something doesn't feel right - perhaps the rug is causing pressure points somewhere that hasn't been noticed, perhaps it is a touch too big or small causing her discomfort, perhaps she is getting too hot under her rug when she wears it....and so the list goes on. If she is always aggressive around food, this too is her way of trying to tell you something. She may be resource guarding, which is an indication that all is not well. For some reason her food has become extremely high value to her, and she feels the need to completely protect it so that there is no chance of anyone taking it away from her. Perhaps she is being bullied in the field and not able to eat as much as she would like to? Perhaps she feels she doesn't have access to enough food (could she be spending chunks of the day without access to any forage?), and so when she is given a bowl full of it she desperately wants it. And again, the list can go on and on. Without finding the root cause of her aggressive tendencies you will never be able to completely rectify the problem, regardless of how hard some people may want you to hit her. Becoming aggressive back to her may stop the problem for a little while, or possibly even with you, but it will not be solved if someone else has to come in and handle her on your behalf who has not hit her, and she will become a ticking time bomb waiting for an opportune moment to go off. And in the mean time she isn't going to like you very much. You sound like a lovely owner and I really am so sorry that you have been hurt. Unfortunately she is a horse and so will not show 'remorse'....in her eyes she has not done anything wrong - she was simply guarding a resource (her food) that has become extremely important to her and she perceived you as a threat. There are lots of excellent behaviourists who could help you to work out the exact trigger of this problem and how to solve it....if you would like me to recommend someone near to you please pm me and I would be more than happy to. :)
Click to expand...
This and other posts along similar lines.

I too am very sorry you are hurt op.

One thing that springs to my mind when considering possible reasons is ulcers/gut irritation. I know some think it's a fashionable physical problem but TB out of racing, unhappy with rugs, around belly and protective/aggressive around feed... ??
 
Last edited:
Dear OP
I agree with Amymay. I have a mareish mare. I wont go into the endless domineering traits she has, but believe me Ive been in horses many years, and she has taught me more than all the others Ive owned put together! I now have to think like a horse to handle her!
If I "took on" my mare, she would win hands down. Ive had to adapt the way I care for her.
She is very possessive of food, hay nets and believe it or not, her water bucket! She is livid if the wheelbarrow goes in her stable - so ......................... she is always tied up outside whilst I get it all ready.
She moans about being groomed, rugged up and saddled up - so ............she is double tied.
Doesnt like her field being poo-picked - so ............ its harrowed instead.
I would never just go in and do jobs in her stable or her field with her loose.
If I tried to teach her a lesson, I think she would kill me. It is me who has had to adapt. Instead we have reached a mutual agreement, she respects me as best she can, (she reverses up in the stable when I enter), and I respect her space ALOT! Fantastic to ride, jump, shoe (double tie), box (double tie). Lots of good points, infact she's just been on a long loan and they didnt want to give her back!!
I think one of the most dangerous places to be with this kind of horse, is the stable. I would say pick your battles very very carefully, and remember to think like a horse.
Most of all, good luck and take care.
 
Yes pick your battles, and anything while she is eating is one to avoid.

One very sharp well timed whack usually nipps any trouble in the bud. I often watch people shouting and slapping their horse. The slap is half hearted and the horse probably barely registered it. So they have to keep shouting and slapping over the years. Look at the kicks and lumps horses take out of each other in the field. They are tough. It needs to be a whack they remember. One very sharp whack is better than a constant battle of shouts and slaps

I very very rarely hit my horses but when I do they know I mean business
 
amymay said:
You see I do think you kind of asked for it. You know the trigger points and you do need to work around them. For me that would mean tying up short to rug, and tying up the haynet before you fed.

I had a horse that could not tolerate any interference when eating - so I simply left her to it.
Click to expand...

^^ This. I have a mare who is slightly cold backed and snaps at you when saddling up - would I hit her? No never, it's her reaction to something uncomfortable - I just make sure she is tied up short and I take saddling slowly. You have to respect their ways and personalities too unless you want a complete dope.
 
I think others have given lots of good ideas to try out. I just wanted to say I hope you can find a workaround as those bites look so sore....She deffo meant business! My mare can nip around rugging up or tacking up but it isn't too bad and there are many warnings before any biting. Unfortunately she is paralysed on her left side of face at the moment, so it's only the right ear that goes back to warn me of the impending doom which is harder to spot from the left. So yesterday the nip on my bum was a surprise to me, but adequately warned from her point of view, lol! Hope you sort it!
 
Last edited:
Brightbay said:
I am sorry you got hurt, that looks very sore indeed :(

I am going to disagree with most other people on the thread, and I'll give you my reasons :)
First of all, horses are not generally aggressive, they bite in defence when they feel threatened. They tend to feel under threat for a number of different reasons. I'll go through them :) First of all, like us, they tend to feel particularly vulnerable when they're in pain or discomfort, or when they're anticipating pain or discomfort - this is the most dangerous situation. A horse who objects - and has previously voiced her concern by ears back or head threats - when rugs are being done up has given notice that she finds this uncomfortable, or has found it uncomfortable in the past. Horses who have or have previously had ulcers fall in to this group, although girthy horses generally do.
Secondly, horses feel more threatened in situations where they believe resources essential to their survival are under threat. Resources most important to a horse are (a) the ability to flee danger, (b) food and (c) personal space. In a stable, the horse cannot flee, and horses who have personal space issues are already feeling edgy and vulnerable. This is often particularly bad in TBs who have raced, as they spend a lot of time in a small space and the space itself becomes very important to them. It is not helped that they are often handled by young, clumsy and inexperienced handlers, who have limited time to spend doing rugs/girths/tack up as carefully and gently as the horse needs. So the horse anticipates rough handling, and when a new handler comes along who doesn't know the background, they are often the ones who suffer from the "out of the blue" attack (it's almost never out of the blue - the horse has usually been giving progressively louder hints that they're unhappy, all of which have been either ignored (just keep on doing up the rug, push the horse's head out of the way, growl at them if they put ears back etc.).
TBs who have been stabled a lot also often have resource issues around food, because it's often been rationed in some way - they often haven't had ad-lib forage, so they become defensive around food. I see you've said she has plenty of grass - the grass, although plentiful at the moment, is not the same as summer grass, and a lot of horses are finding it less satisfying - it is exactly the time of year when you find horses much grumpier even though they appear to be eating plenty. If your problem happened just after bringing your horse in from the field, consider just letting her chill out with a haynet for 20 minutes in the stable before handling/doing rugs etc.

Put all of this together, and you have a horse who is in a confined space where they can't get away from anything that worries them, who feels unhappy about having rugs done in this space, who has food guarging issues, and whose communications about their worry have been either punished or ignored.
In a human, we'd all recognise that adds up to a flashpoint...

If you punish the biting with a slap, you have now shut down another message from the horse, and you have identified yourself as a severe potential threat in the horse's eyes.
If you're clever enough to punish it without the horse associating the punishment with you, you have now made the stable an even more dangerous place in the horse's mind (I have had to work with several horses who wouldn't go into a stable for reasons similar to this), and if they do go into the stable, they are even more on guard and ready to defend themselves. And since they know their quieter communications are ignored, they just skip all the "I am rather worried here" communications and go straight for biting or lunging.

So what's your choice? Well, I would definitely not advise retaliation to anybody, since it's a personal safety issue. The horse knows you've punished biting - but they're big animals and they do have a level above biting. Push 'em hard enough, and you'll get to see it. Punishment always has "fallout", it's just not necessarily what we expect.

Leave a resource guarding horse to eat in peace. Try to find a stable where they feel safe - some of the problems can stem from having other horses too close on either side, some horses feel more secure in open stables, some in American barn stables. Most resource guarding horses are better with ad-lib hay, and if hay nets/feed need to be replaced, don't do it with the horse in the stable.
It is possible to change a horse's associations with being rugged, provided there isn't a discomfort issue - sometimes doing the whole process very slowly can work well, and it is essential to watch the horse's reactions while doing it. If you can't take the time to work on this, the horse should be tied up to be rugged.
Bear in mind when working with the horse that they are on edge in their stable, so put safety first - rather than waiting for something to go wrong and then shouting/slapping/jumping up and down or otherwise frightening the horse.
And just because a horse doesn't appear to be afraid doesn't mean they're not - we're crap at reading fear in horses - just like humans, some very frightened horses may actually appear more angry/defiant to us.
Click to expand...

Woops, it was this I had hoped to 'reply with quote' to, so that it showed your full post again so hopefully more people will see it!
 
amymay said:
You see I do think you kind of asked for it. You know the trigger points and you do need to work around them. For me that would mean tying up short to rug, and tying up the haynet before you fed.

I had a horse that could not tolerate any interference when eating - so I simply left her to it.
Click to expand...
Pretty much agree with this TBH.
I can do what I want to my horses when I want, but I always let them eat in peace.
Had a mare who was evil at feed times, safest option was hanging a manger over her door, so that's what I did and left her to it. When she'd finished she was fine.
Think...would you get irritated by someone faffing around with you whilst you were trying to eat?

Tie her up short to rug, problem solved.
 
joeanne said:
If she had attacked you for no reason I could quite understand you giving her a firm wallop and you being all indignant, BUT....you clearly do know that the mare has an issue with feeding and rugging, and at this late stage in the day, you are not going to change it....and all the thumping and shouting at her will not change that. I had a little pony that would give you both back feet if you dared to so much as look at her feed bucket....the solution? Let her eat in peace....would YOU want someone buggering about with you whilst you tried to eat your dinner?
Tie her short to rug, put the haynet in BEFORE you feed and then leave the poor thing in peace!
Click to expand...

Totally agree with this.
 
This is interesting. My colleague bought a tb mare who was an absolute wahoo. She would come in to work with bruises and lumps where she'd be grooming or working about the horse and it would bite or kick her. She tried everything with it from natural horsemanship , parelli , vet tests, behaviourist, back person, to good old giving it a crack when it done it. The horse just got worse and worse. I don't agree with what she done with her but she gave her to a dealer as she was beginning to lose time off work. This was about November 2011. Always wondered what happened to her after that.
 
holeymoley said:
This is interesting. My colleague bought a tb mare who was an absolute wahoo. She would come in to work with bruises and lumps where she'd be grooming or working about the horse and it would bite or kick her. She tried everything with it from natural horsemanship , parelli , vet tests, behaviourist, back person, to good old giving it a crack when it done it. The horse just got worse and worse. I don't agree with what she done with her but she gave her to a dealer as she was beginning to lose time off work. This was about November 2011. Always wondered what happened to her after that.
Click to expand...

Don't. It's horses like this that I honestly would rather see retired and put as a companion or PTS because they can end up being beaten black and blue, dumped in a field and forgotten about or on a boat to the continent. I personally would try not to think about it :-(
 
My daughters horse Benji was a bit like this when I first got him. He was a giant wuss. Bottom of the pecking order and I guess always felt he had to protect his space. He pulled faces, threatened to bite, double barrelled when given his food.
He lived out and was fed alongside my others. I had to put his food down and turn away immediately or he would double barrel.
He would try to bite when being rugged or saddled up or groomed...he was generally a miserable sod. I ignored him for the most part except some growling and swearing at him..:p
In time, he got better and better. He would still pretend' to try and bite when you faffed around with him but it was more of a game...he would always go for the bum and just nose butt it. He always pulled a face as soon as you turned away from him...I would always shout 'Benj, I know you're pulling a face!' and I'd turn round and he'd have his ears pricked :D
He stopped double barrelling at feed times and was generally a much nicer horse.

My point is, aggression often comes from the more wussy types. Perhaps you're horse doesn't feel very secure yet.

And good luck with those bruises...I have the exact same thng happen from my Cob who is not at all aggressive but bit me while I was applying fly crean to his sore sheath. I nearly passed out :p
 
_GG_ said:
Don't. It's horses like this that I honestly would rather see retired and put as a companion or PTS because they can end up being beaten black and blue, dumped in a field and forgotten about or on a boat to the continent. I personally would try not to think about it :-(
Click to expand...

Exactly , it should've been pts, but before I knew it I think she'd had enough and on her day off just took her away.
 
I think what a lot of responders are saying which I disagree with to a degree, is that in order to sort this problem - or similar - you need to understand why the mare is behaving this way.

I agree that you should ensure there is no underlying cause, but in my experience a smart horse doesn't need a current reason to 'misbehave', and spending lots of time trying to understand her motives 'can' be a waste of time if not potentially hazardous.

Horse has learned - potentially from one incident, that by frowning at handler, she is left alone. 2nd time she frowns harder, handler moves away. From that point on she is going to push this behaviour to assert her control of the situation. My 'tricky' gelding can build an entire new bad habit in a millisecond if I am not careful - and plenty of bright horses are like it.

You either have to re-programme her to react differently around food, or manage the behaviour, which should improve over time if you are disciplined.

I would simply ensure feed is in stable before horse, or that food in put in with horse and horse is left alone till food is gone.
 
What a really interesting thread. I think the op's horse is showing the temperament problems that are often seen in horses that have been in training. Many of us would straighten a rug or hang a haynet up whilst our horse is bucket feeding but there will always be some horses that cannot tolerate being disturbed. Personally I don't think they should be disturbed and I also think that stabled horses that can see and hear their neighbours, should be fed at the same time to prevent any stressy 'where is mine' behaviour and possibly aggression.

I bought a mare last year that was dominant and very food proud. She also had very poor ground manners. I had to be very tough on her for a period of time and that did include a massive smacking when she tried to remove my head with her teeth. She had her own opinion on everything from refusing to stand to be mounted, crushing me up the wall, charging off on the headcollar, refusing to turn in gateways, threatening and following through with biting (never offered to kick) and using her shoulders to put me where she required.

I went back to basics, using a rope halter and put the ground manners in. As soon as the manners where in her attitude changed dramatically for the very much better. She had boundaries and knew she must not cross them. She is a much happier and talkative horse now, rarely puts her ears back, makes a big effort to be polite and always steps back when I open the door or a gate. Feed time remains a big thing for her and I never disturb her whilst she eats 6 pony nuts and an apple !
 
"I know she is grumpy when rugging and likes to be left alone when being fed, but i sure dont see why i should be dictated to as to when i go in her stable. If i want to go in when she is eating then so be it, she has to learn to accept it."

The above sentence is the clue to why you were bitten.

There are many good points raised by BrightBay and amymay.

From what I have read on this thread I would suggest you read more about the horse and his mind. I suggest the book 'The Truth About Horses' by Andrew Maclean.

Horses attack in response to fear and panic, they have a reason for every action and this may not make sense to us humans, which is why it is useful to learn and understand how they function. Mares are more prone to hormonal changes and are more likey to be protective they after all produce foals.

All horses whatever the gender are flight animals and have evolved to be reactive; as owners we must learn to work with this. They also can sense our moods and attitude. We humans have to learn to earn their trust.
 
I'll join in and quote this great post as well. :)

Brightbay said:
I am sorry you got hurt, that looks very sore indeed :(

I am going to disagree with most other people on the thread, and I'll give you my reasons :)
First of all, horses are not generally aggressive, they bite in defence when they feel threatened. They tend to feel under threat for a number of different reasons. I'll go through them :) First of all, like us, they tend to feel particularly vulnerable when they're in pain or discomfort, or when they're anticipating pain or discomfort - this is the most dangerous situation. A horse who objects - and has previously voiced her concern by ears back or head threats - when rugs are being done up has given notice that she finds this uncomfortable, or has found it uncomfortable in the past. Horses who have or have previously had ulcers fall in to this group, although girthy horses generally do.
Secondly, horses feel more threatened in situations where they believe resources essential to their survival are under threat. Resources most important to a horse are (a) the ability to flee danger, (b) food and (c) personal space. In a stable, the horse cannot flee, and horses who have personal space issues are already feeling edgy and vulnerable. This is often particularly bad in TBs who have raced, as they spend a lot of time in a small space and the space itself becomes very important to them. It is not helped that they are often handled by young, clumsy and inexperienced handlers, who have limited time to spend doing rugs/girths/tack up as carefully and gently as the horse needs. So the horse anticipates rough handling, and when a new handler comes along who doesn't know the background, they are often the ones who suffer from the "out of the blue" attack (it's almost never out of the blue - the horse has usually been giving progressively louder hints that they're unhappy, all of which have been either ignored (just keep on doing up the rug, push the horse's head out of the way, growl at them if they put ears back etc.).
TBs who have been stabled a lot also often have resource issues around food, because it's often been rationed in some way - they often haven't had ad-lib forage, so they become defensive around food. I see you've said she has plenty of grass - the grass, although plentiful at the moment, is not the same as summer grass, and a lot of horses are finding it less satisfying - it is exactly the time of year when you find horses much grumpier even though they appear to be eating plenty. If your problem happened just after bringing your horse in from the field, consider just letting her chill out with a haynet for 20 minutes in the stable before handling/doing rugs etc.

Put all of this together, and you have a horse who is in a confined space where they can't get away from anything that worries them, who feels unhappy about having rugs done in this space, who has food guarging issues, and whose communications about their worry have been either punished or ignored.
In a human, we'd all recognise that adds up to a flashpoint...

If you punish the biting with a slap, you have now shut down another message from the horse, and you have identified yourself as a severe potential threat in the horse's eyes.
If you're clever enough to punish it without the horse associating the punishment with you, you have now made the stable an even more dangerous place in the horse's mind (I have had to work with several horses who wouldn't go into a stable for reasons similar to this), and if they do go into the stable, they are even more on guard and ready to defend themselves. And since they know their quieter communications are ignored, they just skip all the "I am rather worried here" communications and go straight for biting or lunging.

So what's your choice? Well, I would definitely not advise retaliation to anybody, since it's a personal safety issue. The horse knows you've punished biting - but they're big animals and they do have a level above biting. Push 'em hard enough, and you'll get to see it. Punishment always has "fallout", it's just not necessarily what we expect.

Leave a resource guarding horse to eat in peace. Try to find a stable where they feel safe - some of the problems can stem from having other horses too close on either side, some horses feel more secure in open stables, some in American barn stables. Most resource guarding horses are better with ad-lib hay, and if hay nets/feed need to be replaced, don't do it with the horse in the stable.
It is possible to change a horse's associations with being rugged, provided there isn't a discomfort issue - sometimes doing the whole process very slowly can work well, and it is essential to watch the horse's reactions while doing it. If you can't take the time to work on this, the horse should be tied up to be rugged.
Bear in mind when working with the horse that they are on edge in their stable, so put safety first - rather than waiting for something to go wrong and then shouting/slapping/jumping up and down or otherwise frightening the horse.
And just because a horse doesn't appear to be afraid doesn't mean they're not - we're crap at reading fear in horses - just like humans, some very frightened horses may actually appear more angry/defiant to us.
Click to expand...


A lot of posts are saying the horse has to know this is unacceptable and be punished to show who is boss. What does this really achieve from the horses perspective? Many appear to think the horses pov doesn't matter and it's the horse 'who should know better!' :(
Surely a multi prong approach looking at possible reasons, overall management, ways to manage the situation safely until the situation is unpicked and changes/treatment and training plan is put in place.

I've said it before, horses are not the enemy, they aren't plotting to control us, they are just reacting as horses to circumstances they find themselves in. Taking an adversarial approach with an animal we want to work with us/be a partner isn't going to make a solid trusting foundation. We also need to ask is it fair to not try and understand what's going on and use our brains rather than just brawn? What is wrong with taking a step back and thinking, does it really make us an ineffective owner?
 
You have had some good advice on this thread I haven't read all of it but if one of mine bites then it's on right there and then no matter when or where.

Get some arnica on them butes and let her know whose boss. I insist on manners from my guys when I'm there as they have the whole day to themselves when in not.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top