TB mare attacked me twice today :-(

AnnaGHDT said:
getting violent is not likely to achieve the outcome that you are hoping for.
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At the risk of starting the panto season early, done in the right way at the right time .... oh yes it is!


As Abraham Lincoln wisely said, 'violence starts where knowledge ends'.
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He was talking about man. I'll bet my bottom dollar he whipped his horses quite happily. Just like he advocated stopping slavery by shipping all the black people back to Africa.
 
The clue is in the poster. And by the way I agree with your above statements OP.CP is not a novice.

These posts always garner we know better. Unless dealing with said horse daily any advice is what we know from ours which we think is exactly the same. Not all racehorses are handled by idiots. So sick of hearing those statements. I have a mare that if she is fed any product containing soya she will try and kill you. I've had her since a foal. I have watched her interactions with other horses. At the moment she's in a group of 4. There is only one horse above her and it's not the mare that keeps the other 3 in line. If that changes she will probably end up on her own. The 4 work together but not really minus one if that makes sense. But I have learned much on her from the group. She can be very much as described in CP's mare but we have not had it go to the level of meaning to get you. But she has to be watched. She is protective of her space while in. I respect that but equally if I need to go in there is no issue.

OP I don't have any advice because this is more than a general have you tried situation. I'm going to assume your diet does not include soya. I can't remember if the phytoesyrogens are as problematic in flax as soya but I know my tricky mare is fine with the flax but it's a very small amount she gets. Soya in any form and she really loses it mentally. Also my mare had a serious head injury as a foal. Maybe something to it maybe not. I would also consider having a repro exam. You never know what could be going on inside.

Terri
 
My animals live a herd situation but in winter they have access to an open barn and food is put out to maintain their body weight, sometimes this is less than they would like and when you go to feed them no matter how settled they are the majority of the time food is a stress point and kicking face pulling and chasing ensues. When it gets colder and their energy needs are greater they have an in exhaustible amount of hay to the point they are practically 'bored' of eating, peace reigns and very little aggression is shown. My point is you may not think your mare is hungrey but she may be already stressed because her triggers says she is and she has no control over this.
I have had horses for thirty plus years and believe me I have seen people do horrible things to them to teach them a lesson usually through thinking an animal can be beaten in to compliance, the natural reaction of the animal is to either run away, attack and then if they can not do that withdraw often seen in horses that have been beaten until they can not respond, unfortunately I have seen this. This mare sounds as if she has gone in to the second stage and a different approach needs to be used.
I am not a push over believe me, but we are humans and we are supposed to have the ability to be objective, I am a bit sad that a lot of the solutions given seem to be, give it a whack, I thought we had become more educated than this.
 
amymay said:
You see I do think you kind of asked for it. You know the trigger points and you do need to work around them. For me that would mean tying up short to rug, and tying up the haynet before you fed.

I had a horse that could not tolerate any interference when eating - so I simply left her to it.
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Have to agree. something has obviously gone on for this mare previously - I also cannot think of a worse scenario than laying into a horse like this within the confines of a stable, it could get you killed if it escalated out of control. Have you spoken to your vet re possible hormonal issues? I've never had a problem with any of my mares, but I have heard of some whose behaviour worsens when they are in season.
 
JEZA said:
Dear OP
I agree with Amymay. I have a mareish mare. I wont go into the endless domineering traits she has, but believe me Ive been in horses many years, and she has taught me more than all the others Ive owned put together! I now have to think like a horse to handle her!
If I "took on" my mare, she would win hands down. Ive had to adapt the way I care for her.
She is very possessive of food, hay nets and believe it or not, her water bucket! She is livid if the wheelbarrow goes in her stable - so ......................... she is always tied up outside whilst I get it all ready.
She moans about being groomed, rugged up and saddled up - so ............she is double tied.
Doesnt like her field being poo-picked - so ............ its harrowed instead.
I would never just go in and do jobs in her stable or her field with her loose.
If I tried to teach her a lesson, I think she would kill me. It is me who has had to adapt. Instead we have reached a mutual agreement, she respects me as best she can, (she reverses up in the stable when I enter), and I respect her space ALOT! Fantastic to ride, jump, shoe (double tie), box (double tie). Lots of good points, infact she's just been on a long loan and they didnt want to give her back!!
I think one of the most dangerous places to be with this kind of horse, is the stable. I would say pick your battles very very carefully, and remember to think like a horse.
Most of all, good luck and take care.
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Very well said. Sometimes going hell for leather on a horse just escalates the issue and you loose trust and confidence they have in you. Its an incredibly complex thing and my normal reaction would have been give her a good hiding as biting is not acceptable .... Then I got a loan mare last winter and she was pretty lethal so I picked my fights and set myself up to always win them. I played safe EVERY second with her in the end because she was lethal around food, in her stable and to be rugged. Sadly she was a pretty unhappy horse but showed a sweetness and loyalty towards the end of our time together and I cannot tell you how much she taught me and trust me you had to learn quick because she was always one step ahead! Her owner missed her (I cannot understand why to be honest as she made me miserable) so when the loan period was up she was gone and I didn't even wave goodbye.

Hope you get this sorted, best of luck. :)
 
amymay said:
You see I do think you kind of asked for it. You know the trigger points and you do need to work around them. For me that would mean tying up short to rug, and tying up the haynet before you fed.

I had a horse that could not tolerate any interference when eating - so I simply left her to it.
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Agree with Amymay. I had one who was v food proud and grumpy in the stable. To change rugs he was either tied up outside the stable or tied up in the stable very short. Hard feed was the last thing I put in the stable before leaving, so there was no need to interfere with him afterwards. OP, you know this mare is difficult around food so I would suggest you tie her up outside the stable to change rugs and while you are putting haynets in. Then put her into the stable, put her feed in and leave her alone.

I also think you need to be harder on her if she goes for you again. I wouldn't do it with a riding crop. The last thing you want is for her to freak out when you carry a whip to ride. It isn't about laying into her but you need to find a way to discipline her. More importantly, set yourself up to succeed. You know she is tricky in the stable therefore don't do things to her in said stable.
 
More battles we think we have to win. I'm afraid it's so saddening to me! If we always see things as a battle we will always be hitting and beating horses and getting hurt and then hitting them more and harder!

If you're going with the attitude you are going into a battle, you will always end up in a fight and someone/animal will be hurt or emotionally crushed one way or another!
 
Whipping a horse is simply attack/assault just like a predator would do to it, why ruin the relationship when a bit of animal behaviour works so well, this is her time to eat, you have chosen to lock her ina 12/12 box, so leave her be and let her eat. So simple
 
I do think sometimes they need a good wallop but also be careful as this could back fire and you end up with horses head in corner and their feet in your teeth. As amymay said I would have all her feed etc ready in stable and tie up short to rug. Also is it not possible to just not rug - I know easier said than done. My tb gelding is the same very grumpy around food at times and nippy with rugs. The more I learn from him the more I see he just doesn't like rugs. Hence I only rug when I really have to and he wears light rugs and he over heats a lot and sweats. Good luck.
 
My cob can give a cheeky nip at times, and yes its very fast and it hurts! she has done it twice in 4 years, a good fast sharp slap on the nose does the trick! its an instant reaction from me and she never does it now.
I don't resort to slapping normally but biting is one of the things i don't tolerate.
My colt used to do it but he wouldn't now (he's been better since being gelded) but am sure with any horse if they can get away with it they will test you out, am always on my guard!
 
About ten years ago I had a broodmare here for the winter, in foal. Lovely TB that had raced successfully, was a doddle to handle and do anything with. She was out by day and in at night, when she came in her box was done, hay in, just had to feed and leave until late check when they would be skipped out and extra hay in (hay always went in first so they weren't milling about and churning bed up. She had been here 3 months without any problems at all when at one late night check she totally flipped for no reason that I could find at all. I had taken their hay in (separate boxes so no need for a fight) and came down the row of boxes skipping out into the wheelbarrow as usual. Normally the horses never noticed me, they were too busy eating their hay but that night as I skipped her out she flew at me knocking me down as I was so surprised by it. Not content with me on the floor she grabbed hold of my coat by my neck and proceeded to shake me like a rag doll and she only let go as I fell into the wheelbarrow, think the noise distracted her; she really meant it, she was still having a go at me over the door. To say I was shaken up was an understatement TBH; it came out of the blue and she had never so much as put an ear back at me before in the 3 months she had been in this routine. I shouted at her and chased her around the box then came out, left it at that. The next night I was ready for her and she tried it again but I'm afraid she got the broom up her backside for her troubles; she was fine for weeks after that then had another go so I stopped doing anything to her box while she was in it. Might sound the coward's way out but I wasn't prepared to get hurt on her account. She went away to stud to foal down and I warned them of this habit, that it came out of the blue, they wouldn't see it coming and I could see them going yeah, yeah, novice, we know how to handle them! They didn't, she nearly put the groom in hospital by getting his back - twice and they obviously didn't learn as she did it the following year too! In between times she was sweetness and light, never an ear back or foot lifted but it was as if something triggered it off and there was no stopping her being a vicious cow until something snapped her out of it. I heard later that she was sold because of it and then put down after she had another staff member badly but they had found out she had been like that when in training too. None of her youngsters had that temperament problem that we found out and a couple went on to be winners.
 
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Choose your battles.

OP, this is one (or two) battles that you could have, and perhaps should have walked away from. In theory we should be able to do anything around our animals, but in practice that isn't always the case. And putting yourself in your horses place, would you like someone mithering you when you were eating, doing something that annoyed you at the best of times? I certainly wouldn't!

I was double barrelled coming up to three weeks ago. I know that the horse has a history, and that she can be a bit jumpy. Didn't stop me shouting out to someone suddenly when I was near her back end though......! She knew I was there, but I scared her so she lashed out. Serves me right! While I am not saying you deserved to be bitten, you knew that your horse has certain issues, issues that can be avoided if handled correctly.

Hope you heal quickly OP.
 
putasocinit said:
... why ruin the relationship when a bit of animal behaviour works so well, this is her time to eat, ... so leave her be and let her eat. So simple
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Yes. I'd be looking at taking this further and working towards your mare feeling safe in her stable. Clearly she doesn't and isn't going to if you ignore her requests to keep your distance while she's eating. She had to escalate to biting you to really get the message across. As others have said - get the stable ready and leave her be. You can hang around in the vicinity so she gets used to you being around. Treat it as her space, her sanctuary and not as a battleground where you have to 'win'. Treat her with respect because this is clearly very important to her. One day I watched my farmer neighbour go into a field of 3 cows and 4 calves. The twin calves were newly born and one of the non-mothers was trying to steal one. As he got closer to take a look at the twins the mother turned her attention towards him. What did he do? He most certainly did not keep going! Nor did he lay into her. He simply started walking backwards very slowly away from them all and stayed that way until he reached the gate. Yep I learned a lot from that farmer.
 
Cows with calves at foot kill humans on a regular basis. How a farmer handled that situation bears no relationship to how to deal with a lone horse in a stable who has decided to dominate you by taking a chunk out of you.
 
I don't see why it has to be a pitched battle. There are some horses who ARE bad about being rugged up or get grumpy when hay is being out in. I had a horse who would sometimes try his luck so I would simply tie him short when rugging or feeding. As did the staff. Yes you can whack them quickly but once a horse had demonstrated that behaviour I would not trust them ever again. Tie her up. Put your safety first.
 
Arzada was telling a story as an example and i would rather be in a box with a horse going dill where i might have the chance to jump over the stable door, but being in a field with a cow who is intent on killing me and i cant outrun it, no chance
 
While I appreciate horses need to be left to enjoy their feed, mine are all taught to wait till told they can have their haynets/feeds, then they are left to eat in peace and rarely need a headcollar for anything, our mare was a hatrack when she came and food aggressive, now she knows she gets her feed in peace, she's fine, my lad still threatens when waiting for his feed, but knows he has to stand till I say good boy get it, our coblet of 3 yrs is still learning his manners, I firmly believe to give anything, kids, dogs, horses ground rules, they respect knowing where they stand and react positively, I am not a fan of violence, but sometimes a timely smack is useful
 
flirtygerty said:
While I appreciate horses need to be left to enjoy their feed, mine are all taught to wait till told they can have their haynets/feeds, then they are left to eat in peace and rarely need a headcollar for anything, our mare was a hatrack when she came and food aggressive, now she knows she gets her feed in peace, she's fine, my lad still threatens when waiting for his feed, but knows he has to stand till I say good boy get it, our coblet of 3 yrs is still learning his manners, I firmly believe to give anything, kids, dogs, horses ground rules, they respect knowing where they stand and react positively, I am not a fan of violence, but sometimes a timely smack is useful
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That's all well and good if you have raised your youngster from birth and he hasn't had any bad experiences....when you take on an older horse, especially a ott you have no idea of what he has learned with his previous experiences with the human race - many of them are not nice as has been said in prior posts....you have to manage the horse you have, warts and all!!!
 
cptrayes said:
Cows with calves at foot kill humans on a regular basis. How a farmer handled that situation bears no relationship to how to deal with a lone horse in a stable who has decided to dominate you by taking a chunk out of you.
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How can you be sure that she has decided to dominate rather than acting for the e.g. the reasons outlined in Brightbay's post?
 
fburton said:
How can you be sure that she has decided to dominate rather than acting for the e.g. the reasons outlined in Brightbay's post?
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I consider any bite to be an attempt to dominate at the moment the bite is administered. The cause of the need to dominate that moment may differ, as may the solution to the unwanted behaviour. But saying 'violence' , physical punishment', will never work is just plain wrong, because it does when used at the right time for the right reason.
 
Well it seems to me from this thread posts there are three approaches. 1) make the horse so scared of you they daren't express any opinion, 2) try and understand the horse and sort out things so they don't feel the need to bite you or 3) be some sort of untouchable God! ;)

Hope you are feeling a bit better op.
 
cptrayes said:
Can you explain why my herd leader, very dominant, is still occasionally bitten by his subordinate field mate PR, I'm not sure it's,as simple as that :)
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Right, it's not! Whether PR meant herd leader (the one the other choose to follow) or the most dominant horse, neither 'status' is a guarantee that other horses won't bite, or indeed kick, most often in self-defence. That is why I think PR's advice is misguided and potentially dangerous.
 
amandap said:
Well it seems to me from this thread posts there are three approaches. 1) make the horse so scared of you they daren't express any opinion, 2) try and understand the horse and sort out things so they don't feel the need to bite you or 3) be some sort of untouchable God! ;)

Hope you are feeling a bit better op.
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Whilst I am clearly in camp3. I don't think camps 1 & 2 are that clear cut. camp 2 is good if the horse's behaviour is triggered by a current event. If you ascertain horse has ulcers & remove cause horse may revert to sweet natured self & problem stops.

If horse is biting because it had once for whatever reason tried to drive humans away from grub & it worked, then there isn't such a clear cause for the behaviour which you can remove.

Then a sharp shock administered swiftly can be very effective. It isn't always the case I accept but it isn't as simple, I don't believe, as either battering the horse, or trying for months to get to the bottom of the behaviour.

I think very often horse frown, scowl, paw and look ferocious without even being aware that they are doing so. It is just a learned posture and there is no underlying cause to address. If that is the case then really all you can do is ignore it and not interact with the horse until it's finished eating IMO.

I was once rugging a horse up who was like this whilst eating his tea. I was concerned about bending down to do belly straps while a front hoof was being waved wildly about (I did not for one minute think horse was threatening, it was just habit). I tapped/pushed horse on shoulder to get attention & put foot down. Horse nearly went through the roof in shock, it was unaware I was even there and had gone in to a complete feeding frenzy zone. You certainly wouldn't have punished him, nor was there a particular cause apart from pure greed.
 
Sorry you got hurt OP. I always leave mine alone to eat, I just think horses are generally more comfortable alone with their feed. Just looking at it from a different angle, is it possible that she does see you as higher in the pecking order and that made her anxious? I mean she doesn't know that you won't at some point compete with her for her ration and it may have been fear aggression? Just musing.
 
amandap said:
Well it seems to me from this thread posts there are three approaches. 1) make the horse so scared of you they daren't express any opinion, 2) try and understand the horse and sort out things so they don't feel the need to bite you or 3) be some sort of untouchable God! ;)

Hope you are feeling a bit better op.
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Yup, untouchable God, I'd like that!!

I just know my horse needs a line which he doesn't cross. He is comfortable with boundaries that he doesn't cross. He would take the p with someone who thought they could *understand* him into good manners. With proper boundaries, he is happy and well mannered - he no longer tries to nip or threatens me, and it is by lettin him know in no uncertain terms that he does NOT get to even threaten me, whilst simultaneously picking my battles and not forcing an issue when I won't win. Now, he is fab, if anything sometimes clingy with me - certainly gets jealous when I catch other horses and attempts to chase them off and come with me himself. So I know he has appreciated me being an untouchable God.
 
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