TB mare attacked me twice today :-(

If she is aggressive with feed then work with her with her feed bucket my first horse was very silly with her feed bucket often tipped it over and wasted it so I made a point of working on her while she ate and if she didn't behave I took it off her and brought it back when she had calmed down and was stood politely if she kept it up for too long she didn't get it back. she soon got to the point where I could stoke her face and neck and she would continue to eat her feed in a polite manner.
When It comes to biting need to be very quick to respond I always watch my nippy geldings head like a hawk so I can quickly push his head away if he tries it on but if hes in a particularly pain in the arse mood he gets tied up short and he stops then but if he makes contact he gets a very firm slap on the shoulder sent back raised voice and if he tries it again he gets taken to the grass in front of the stable and worked in hand for 10mins then we try again and repeat the process till he packs it in. can be very time consuming but if your not a smacker or smacking causes your horse to respond aggressively your other choice is rapid response and work them hard till they learn standing still and doing as expected is a damn site easier than being naughty. worked really well with my wild filly but could take an hour to do the simplest of things as would have to lunge/do groundwork tasks for sometime before she would stop her bad behaviour and stand like a good girl and that little madam really could push me to the end of my tether she was a real challenge and the most stuboorn opiniated little sod pot I've ever met but we got their in the end
 
Lol! I see my somewhat frustrated TIC post is going to make being a God the most popular option. Oh dear, I made an error of judgement there then. :(

So, it's all about obey me without question then, where does training/teaching and seeing the horses' POV come in? Or does it? :(
 
amandap said:
Well it seems to me from this thread posts there are three approaches. 1) make the horse so scared of you they daren't express any opinion, 2) try and understand the horse and sort out things so they don't feel the need to bite you or 3) be some sort of untouchable God! ;)

Hope you are feeling a bit better op.
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Not that clear cut though is it? Before doing anything you have to know the horse. You have to know the reasons for the behaviour. It is easy to judge, not so easy to understand all the time. In 30 yrs I have only known the two horses I mention that have needed a really MASSIVE intervention and in both of those cases it was either that or someone getting very seriously injured or horses being shot, which was on the cards for both. Also, neither required actual physical contact.

Not all horses are sweet and lovely and suitable for the approach that we should all opt for which is what you would class as being in camp 2.

It is usually a human that has created the issue in the first place so it is therefore our responsibility to undo the damage. mostly that can and should be done according to the camp 2 approach, but sometimes, some horses do need a big fat dose of DON'T YOU DARE!!!. You don't have to be violent, you don't have to hit and you should NEVER be angry. I actually don't even use voice. I have never ever had a horse be scared of me even after I have had to assert myself, so the two going hand in hand is down to a lacking handler, not a lacking technique.

Just for purposes of clarification, I would always want to go down the camp 2 route, but I will not be blind to see that there isn't occasionally a need for something else...for the good of the HORSE as well as the handler.
 
amandap said:
where does training/teaching and seeing the horses' POV come in? Or does it? :(
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Always. It should always be the number one. It should be the default. I just think it's important to understand that there will be exceptions.

I would much rather a non-violent, one off massive lesson that does not create fear or injury to a prolonged period of stressful confusion with a horse that is beyond the point of "trained/taught" with softer methods. I do agree wit what you are saying amandap, I just won't rule out the exceptions.
 
cptrayes said:
I consider any bite to be an attempt to dominate at the moment the bite is administered. The cause of the need to dominate that moment may differ, as may the solution to the unwanted behaviour. But saying 'violence' , physical punishment', will never work is just plain wrong, because it does when used at the right time for the right reason.
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Thanks for the clarification. It does strike me as a bit odd though that one would define any bite, no matter what cause, as an attempt to dominate, because it suggests (at least to me) a specific mindset or attitude in the horse doing the biting. And the problem with that is it suggests a single kind of response is appropriate, even though you have said it isn't.

I agree that physical punishment may be effective and appropriate sometimes, and I would never say it can't work. However, it isn't without its dangers. It's possible to get it wrong (sometimes spectacularly) I'm sure you'd agree, by it being too weak or too strong, or poorly timed, or unnecessarily frequent or repeated, or simply unfair. Mere verbal scolding is a total waste of time, imo.

Arguably, physical measures that punish (i.e. stop or reduce the frequency of) a behaviour are not always 'violent'. For example... When I am leading a horse that has a tendency to turn away from me, I will punish that movement by allowing him to 'bump' against a taut leadrope; or if he walks into me, 'bump' into a hard part of my anatomy. Doing that, it doesn't take long for most horses to learn to walk straight and to learn subtle turning cues. The bumps don't need to be particularly hard, and certainly not painful, so I would hesitate to call this violent! (Though technically it is still punishment.) Better this than to wait until the horse treads on your toe and then smack him - which is somewhat violent. I'm a firm believer that prevention or avoidance is better than cure.

Administering retaliative punishment with anger or violent intent risks creating fallout which isn't always immediately apparent. It's also entirely unnecessary, I would argue, although I appreciate that people's experience will vary.
 
_GG_ said:
Always. It should always be the number one. It should be the default. I just think it's important to understand that there will be exceptions.
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Of course there are always exceptions but I don't think exceptions should become the rule/basis for our handling/management/problem solving.
 
amandap said:
Lol! I see my somewhat frustrated TIC post is going to make being a God the most popular option. Oh dear, I made an error of judgement there then. :(

So, it's all about obey me without question then, where does training/teaching and seeing the horses' POV come in? Or does it? :(
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Of course seeing the horse's point of view is important - but my safety is more so! My horse does not get to bite me, end of! However, I watch his body language all the time, and I bloomin' micro-manage that animal to keep him happy - for example he is not a sociable horse and doesn't like being brushed (no physical reason). I can't just leave him muddy, and I certianly don't let him bite me - we have an agreement that his body language shows when he's unhappy, and I switch brushes or brush somewhere else for a few moments if he's tickly, or use my fingers for clumps of muck. Wouldn't stop ME defending MYSELF and my space in the way a horse would as well if he did try to go for me (he hasn;t now in a long time - he has his boundaries and I work with his). I also don't hit him - I think I have once the whole time I've owned him. I growl, I stamp my feet, i very occasionally raise my hand in a threat, and that is more than enough for him to back off. However, I don't accept him ever threatening me - for my safety rather than any need to prove myself the boss. However if he thinks I'm an untouchable God then great - Gods aren't always vengeful, some are just, and reward good behaviour, they are just respected!
 
khalswitz said:
Yup, untouchable God, I'd like that!!

I just know my horse needs a line which he doesn't cross. He is comfortable with boundaries that he doesn't cross. He would take the p with someone who thought they could *understand* him into good manners. With proper boundaries, he is happy and well mannered - he no longer tries to nip or threatens me, and it is by lettin him know in no uncertain terms that he does NOT get to even threaten me, whilst simultaneously picking my battles and not forcing an issue when I won't win.
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That's a matter of training though, isn't it? You've taught him to behave in a certain way, knowing that good manners have good consequences and bad manners have not so good consequences. Yes, horses appreciate clear boundaries because they find consistency reassuring and unexpected, unpleasant surprises upset them. Consistency of handling is an essential quality of any good horseperson.

Now, he is fab, if anything sometimes clingy with me - certainly gets jealous when I catch other horses and attempts to chase them off and come with me himself. So I know he has appreciated me being an untouchable God.
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I don't know how much you are reading into good behaviour to indicate an attitude your horse has towards you. Who knows what goes on in their minds anyway! It very tempting to believe they regard us (when things go right) as paragons of leadership, complete with feelings of respect and reverence, because it makes us feel good about ourselves and our relationship with the horse. Practically speaking it usually doesn't make any difference to how we deal with their behaviour. I'm a bit wary of this though. If someone expects a horse to respect them as an authority figure (equine-equivalent or not), the danger is that when things go wrong (or don't go completely right) we blame the misbehaviour on a deficiency of respect from the horse rather than inadequacy of training on our part.
 
khalswitz said:
Of course seeing the horse's point of view is important - but my safety is more so! My horse does not get to bite me, end of! However, I watch his body language all the time, and I bloomin' micro-manage that animal to keep him happy - for example he is not a sociable horse and doesn't like being brushed (no physical reason). I can't just leave him muddy, and I certianly don't let him bite me - we have an agreement that his body language shows when he's unhappy, and I switch brushes or brush somewhere else for a few moments if he's tickly, or use my fingers for clumps of muck. Wouldn't stop ME defending MYSELF and my space in the way a horse would as well if he did try to go for me (he hasn;t now in a long time - he has his boundaries and I work with his). I also don't hit him - I think I have once the whole time I've owned him. I growl, I stamp my feet, i very occasionally raise my hand in a threat, and that is more than enough for him to back off. However, I don't accept him ever threatening me - for my safety rather than any need to prove myself the boss. However if he thinks I'm an untouchable God then great - Gods aren't always vengeful, some are just, and reward good behaviour, they are just respected!
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You obviously work very hard with your horse.

I am wondering what respect means, once again I expect it means different things to different people.
 
fburton said:
I'm a bit wary of this though. If someone expects a horse to respect them as an authority figure (equine-equivalent or not), the danger is that when things go wrong (or don't go completely right) we blame the misbehaviour on a deficiency of respect from the horse rather than inadequacy of training on our part.
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Exactly my thoughts.

Though I will add I may well have got something wrong in management or feeding or missed over time something that might indicate a physical issue or a general worrying/unease.
 
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doriangrey said:
Sorry you got hurt OP. I always leave mine alone to eat, I just think horses are generally more comfortable alone with their feed.
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Agree wholeheartedly.

Just looking at it from a different angle, is it possible that she does see you as higher in the pecking order and that made her anxious? I mean she doesn't know that you won't at some point compete with her for her ration and it may have been fear aggression? Just musing.
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You suggestion raises an interesting point. Some people are actually very keen to do what it takes to make horses see them as 'higher in the pecking order'. I have heard the advice "Between you and your horse, you must be the dominant one otherwise you will be dominated". People have tried to impress upon horses their high rank or status by e.g. chasing them off their hay in the field (this happened on a TV documentary and the girl who was told to do this by the 'expert' got kicked), withholding feed in a provocative way, or just continually making them 'move their feet'. I personally think this is terribly misguided and a real pity given the unnecessary hassle, bad feeling and unsubtle horsemanship that following such a principle can lead to.

I emphatically don't want a horse to see me as a more dominant horse (even if that were possible), or even to see my as some kind of dominant surrogate. One of the reasons I don't is that I want to be able to get close to horses while they are eating without them feeling that I am a threat or competition for the food. I don't want horses to fear me, or even be wary of me, especially for such a spurious motivation. Good manners are still possible - no, essential! - but achieving them is perfectly compatible with the horse not seeing you as a dominant (or part of some notional hierarchy of dominance). The problem is it's too easy for we humans to muddle up notions of dominance and leadership - because they are connected in our primate biology and culture - and believe that to be a good leader to the horse, one also has to be dominant. We love hierarchy; the idea of it gives us a warm, fuzzy feeling. For horses this simply isn't the case - dominance and 'leadership' are totally separate things.
 
Haven't read every response, but I'm struggling to understand why it's imperative that anyone should be able to handle their horse while he/she is eating? Unless you bred your horse yourself, he/she has had experiences that you know nothing about . . . and while I am by no means a fluffy bunny and insist my horse has good manners and give him firm boundaries, there are some behaviours that I completely understand and work round . . . it isn't about "winning" it's about setting us both up to succeed. I don't want to "win" over Kal . . . but I do want him to do what I ask him to do, when I ask him to do it . . . but I do not want an automaton so I take his past history and POV into account and give him a bit of a break on some things.

This does NOT mean that I allow him to turn his bum on me in a threatening manner or sink his teeth into me . . . he tried biting me early on and I made such a fuss about it (jumped up and down waving my arms and shouting) that he worked out it wasn't a game worth playing . . . but it doesn't hurt me to make life easy for both of us by adjusting our routine.

By way of example . . . Kal is (and always has been) protective over feed when in his stable . . . he doesn't actually DO anything, just lays his ears flat back, snakes his head and waves his left hind about. When he was a young colt, he lived in a barn/shed with a bunch of others and food was either tipped onto the floor or dumped into a trough and it was every horse for himself . . . he isn't the most dominant, so I suspect he had to guard what he could get or not get any. I CAN (and have) put feed down and go in the stable with him and rug him up while he's eating and he would never dream of kicking me . . . but as it makes him so clearly unhappy, why would I? It's no skin off my nose to rug him up and THEN feed him . . . it doesn't cause him any stress/nor me any inconvenience. And it certainly doesn't make him feel like he's "won" because I have made an allowance or adjustment to our routine. I also don't leave his feed in his stable ready for him to come in - he comes in to a clean bed, hay, water . . . and the last thing I do before I go is make up and give him his feed. How does that hurt me?

P
 
It's interesting all this talk about leadership and dominance. I'm not convinced I'm afraid. Essentially a 'tame' animal usually wants to work in partnership with us. They usually see us as a provider rather than a leader or something that's dominant to them. We don't need to assert ourselves over them, just work with them.....
 
amymay said:
It's interesting all this talk about leadership and dominance. I'm not convinced I'm afraid. Essentially a 'tame' animal usually wants to work in partnership with us. They usually see us as a provider rather than a leader or something that's dominant to them. We don't need to assert ourselves over them, just work with them.....
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Yup :).

P
 
This thread has been an interesting read. I fall in the ' let then eat in peace camp'. Share horse is ok with being rugged up whilst eating but I find it a pain to do the front fasteners up when his head is stuck in his dish plus I don't like being bothered when I eat so I extend the same courtesy to him. Other horse is a nipper but mostly its posturing so I will push his head away when he tries. I've found that smacking him in response only ups the aggression so try to avoid it.
 
My mare laid her ears back at me and pulled a stupid face if I didn't leave her alone to eat. BUT she never ever followed through. Most times I'd give her space to enjoy her food, didn't worry me to do so. I like to eat in peace too. Occasionally, if I was in a hurry, I'd start to muck out around her and there was never a problem. If I had a horse like OP's, I would begin by diffusing the situation, diverting the attention maybe, hand feeding even. I would however, not be afraid to let my horse know that aggressive behaviour is totally unacceptable. As for the rigging palaver, would spending time desensitizating help? If not, tie up short, though this will not stop her kicking.
Your thigh looks awful OP. Hope you're taking Arnica to help bring the bruising out?
 
amandap said:
You obviously work very hard with your horse.

I am wondering what respect means, once again I expect it means different things to different people.
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And it means a different thing now to me than it did before. Now to me it means being aware of each other, and recognising each other's space and wishes, whereas with my last horse it was more about working together. My new horse isn't an extrovert like the last one, and he doesn't try as hard - but he respects me enough now that when I ask, he usually gives it a go. The last one read my mind to do what he thought I wanted!

My last horse was a great cuddly lump who would do anything to please - tried to treat the current lad like him and he absolutely took the p. I have had to learn how to manage him, and being firm on my boundaries while simultaneously respecting his. It is definitely mutual respect, but if he did cross my line I would let him know about it - someone else mentioned it was training, and I totally agree, the same way my parents trained me not to cross lines, and to respect them as a child, but yet weren't bullies.

I think there is a difference between dominance and bullying, and I think we have to remember that. Some horses need boundaries and a bit of distance from you, whereas others need nothing but encouragement. I'm not Cesar Milan, saying that all you need to do to fix your problems is be the boss - but for my relationship with my horse, it is very important. There are still things I don't push, like I always leave him alone to eat once I've given him his feed - but he can;t snatch or barge me when I give it to him. So it is very much a compromise on many levels, just not on my personal safety - he does NOT get to threaten to kick or bite.
 
You need a proper understanding of the horse you have and it's role within a group. True leads are uncommon. Dominant horses fulfilling the role happens a lot but do get kicked and bit, unlike true leads.
When horses bite or kick people have always missed all the warnings.
To be a true lead to your horse is the safest position to be in, but, you must not be a dominant pretending, which most people are.
 
Pale Rider said:
You need a proper understanding of the horse you have and it's role within a group. True leads are uncommon. Dominant horses fulfilling the role happens a lot but do get kicked and bit, unlike true leads.
When horses bite or kick people have always missed all the warnings.
To be a true lead to your horse is the safest position to be in, but, you must not be a dominant pretending, which most people are.
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I have to say I agree with this. We had a stable herd for some time, the lead horse was the quiet, calm, competant 14.3 ex brood mare, ride and drive gypsy cob. The dominant mare was the 16hh draft mare (big and bossy). We watched the cob glare the draft mare away from the sheep (who she tended to bully) The signs were subtle, there was no overt aggression, the lead mare used 'personality' (for want of a better phrase), she looked after the herd, was never aggressive, but was always in charge. She never jockeyed for position in the gateway (she knew resources were not restricted) she never bullied, but asserted herself when she saw the need. I would hope that we would all aspire to take the role of the cob mare, rather than that of the draft mare.
 
Pale Rider said:
You need a proper understanding of the horse you have and it's role within a group. True leads are uncommon.
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Do you mean it's uncommon for the lead (the horse the others choose to follow) not to be the most dominant horse in the group? If so, I mostly agree in that it is often the case that the most dominant is also the lead - though I wouldn't say it was that uncommon for the lead and the dominant to be different individuals. I can't give you accurate figures because the issue hasn't received a lot of attention from ethologists (although few perceptive observers, like Claudia Feh, have commented on this), and my own sample size is naturally quite small. However, this has been confirmed many times anecdotally by horse owners when "passive leadership" was discussed on forums.

Dominant horses fulfilling the role happens a lot but do get kicked and bit, unlike true leads.
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While I can quite believe that non-dominant leads get kicked and bitten less often than dominants because a) they are more likely to avoid scraps and b) are liked more than dominants are by other horses, I wouldn't want to assert it could never happen. I don't think any status guarantees 100% immunity from kicking or biting - and it would be foolish to assume on that basis that no horse would ever kick or bite you.

When horses bite or kick people have always missed all the warnings.
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I agree that warning signs are often missed, and that a horse who intends to bite will almost always show this intention before the act. (Sometimes bites can come completely out of the blue, but these are pretty rare events.)

To be a true lead to your horse is the safest position to be in, but, you must not be a dominant pretending, which most people are.
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Well, I would hope that most people aren't pretending to be dominant! You're right that it's not a sensible position to adopt - especially, in my view, if it involves lots of dominant posturing or threats of potential violence.

So maybe it would be useful to go into what is required practically speaking to be a "true lead" to your horse. I have in mind a list of desirable qualities that a good horseperson possesses and/or works to develop, but I'd be interested to hear your take on it.
 
P.S. Since we're wandering a bit off the original topic, it might be a good idea to start another thread to discuss "how to be a true lead to your horse". What do you think?
 
khalswitz said:
And it means a different thing now to me than it did before. Now to me it means being aware of each other, and recognising each other's space and wishes, whereas with my last horse it was more about working together.
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Yes,to me it means both those things and working together includes consistent training and handling so the horse understands you.

fburton said:
P.S. Since we're wandering a bit off the original topic, it might be a good idea to start another thread to discuss "how to be a true lead to your horse". What do you think?
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Good idea. I was about to quote you to give my observations re lead and 'dominant' horses in their herd but I'll wait. lol
 
Alyth said:
That's all well and good if you have raised your youngster from birth and he hasn't had any bad experiences....when you take on an older horse, especially a ott you have no idea of what he has learned with his previous experiences with the human race - many of them are not nice as has been said in prior posts....you have to manage the horse you have, warts and all!!!
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I haven't had any of mine from birth, my lad was 6years,now 10, mare was a rescue at 18yrs now 20 and the 3yr old came in July, I rarely need to smack, just use my voice and body language, with the food agressive mare, I put her headcollar on before asking her to wait for a few seconds, the minute she stood still and looked away she got her feed, now she waits nicely till I put it down
 
amymay said:
It's not about doing what she says, just working around her. I'm all about good behaviour, but im also about trying to work around things too.

If you are dispassionate about this and adopt a business like attitude with her chances are within a couple of months or weeks the problem will vanish.

As another poster says don't set yourself up to fail - which essentially you've been doing since May. So she hasn't gone that quickly from warning to attack. ......
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This ^^^ My old mare was like yours. She bit me hard twice as a youngster and she kicked too. All in the first 6 months. She's 18 now and very dear to me. I afopted Amymay's approach. It works but you have to be far more tuned in to the small signals. These bites do not come from no where ever, there are signs use them. I listened to my mare, did a lot of gentle desensitisation and advance/retreat in her comfort zone. Yes if I got it wrong and she upped the anti she got told in absolute no uncertain terms, but the key is to find the balance point earlier.
 
You need to do both things

Tie her up short EVERY time you rug her and always make sure that you have put everything in her box feed wise before you release her.

Also carry a stick with you and if you don't want to give her a whack with it for biting at you then hold it so that when she spins her head around to bite she bumps into the handle end - gives them quite a poke if held firmly.

One other thing though - have you had a chiropractor out to her as a sore horse will often be overly defensive when you handle rugs/girths and the like.
 
YorksG said:
I have to say I agree with this. We had a stable herd for some time, the lead horse was the quiet, calm, competant 14.3 ex brood mare, ride and drive gypsy cob. The dominant mare was the 16hh draft mare (big and bossy). We watched the cob glare the draft mare away from the sheep (who she tended to bully) The signs were subtle, there was no overt aggression, the lead mare used 'personality' (for want of a better phrase), she looked after the herd, was never aggressive, but was always in charge. She never jockeyed for position in the gateway (she knew resources were not restricted) she never bullied, but asserted herself when she saw the need. I would hope that we would all aspire to take the role of the cob mare, rather than that of the draft mare.
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I always call that the 'benign dictator' type - I've had a horse and a dog like that :) Rarely have to make a fuss about it but always in charge...

As far as the OP is concerned, with horses like hers I try and avoid the flashpoints to start with so there is no escalation of behaviour but slowly and gradually, over time you work on doing what you need to do. Ideally you would just leave them to their food and hay but that's not always practical on a lot of yards when they have to be in by a certain time and you can't get there earlier. So, as others said tie up outside to rug and while you hang the net and fill the water and work on teaching the horse that good things come to those that wait ie spend the time teaching her that she has to step back before she gets her bucket. The result is that she gets an immediate reward and you stay safe. At the moment it sounds like she told you every way she could that you were being a PITA and you didn't listen until she really went for you - these are big animals that we need to get to work with us rather than against us. JMHO.

I'm not fluffy and will happily clout if they need it AND it's going to work! That works well with something that's just a big for it's boots and needs reminding of manners. It sounds like this mare has a history and possibly some physical issues so it's not fair or productive to lay into her until you have taken those into account too.
 
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