TB mare attacked me twice today :-(

Hi OP,

Sorry I haven't had a chance to read all the replies so I don't know if this has been mentioned already but I find it's best to leave a horse alone when they are in their stable.

Horses need their own space where they don't get fussed or faffed and their stable should be this place. If you need to rug or groom etc do it anywhere but in the stable. Then you won't be putting yourself in danger in such an enclosed space, especially when you know this upsets her.

TB's are a sensitive breed anyway and need to be treated appropriately.

I definitely don't agree with a beating of any kind. It won't solve your problem in the long run, why add more stress to an already stressful situation?.......I would like to see a person try this with my TB. They wouldn't win.
 
equitum said:
Hi OP,

Sorry I haven't had a chance to read all the replies so I don't know if this has been mentioned already but I find it's best to leave a horse alone when they are in their stable.

Horses need their own space where they don't get fussed or faffed and their stable should be this place. If you need to rug or groom etc do it anywhere but in the stable. Then you won't be putting yourself in danger in such an enclosed space, especially when you know this upsets her.

TB's are a sensitive breed anyway and need to be treated appropriately.

I definitely don't agree with a beating of any kind. It won't solve your problem in the long run, why add more stress to an already stressful situation?.......I would like to see a person try this with my TB. They wouldn't win.
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TB's are not particularly a sensitive breed - like all breeds there are some that are more sensitive than others. The majority of riding horses in NZ are TB's most of which have been in training or raced at some time in their lives. They are just horses!

While I agree with you that it is best to leave the horse alone to eat - it is ridiculous to consider taking the horse out of the stable to rug etc.

Tied up properly the handler should be able to do what they need to in the stable - including feed.

However I always feel that a horse should be left in peace to enjoy its feed.
 
Tnavas said:
TB's are not particularly a sensitive breed - like all breeds there are some that are more sensitive than others. The majority of riding horses in NZ are TB's most of which have been in training or raced at some time in their lives. They are just horses!

While I agree with you that it is best to leave the horse alone to eat - it is ridiculous to consider taking the horse out of the stable to rug etc.

Tied up properly the handler should be able to do what they need to in the stable - including feed.

However I always feel that a horse should be left in peace to enjoy its feed.
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I understand that they are not all really sensitive but I have found that they can be more than others, of course there are always exceptions to any rule but obviously the OP's horse seems to be quite a sensitive mare in this particular environment.

I don't think it's ridiculous to rug outside of a stable at all, unless the horse is stabled all day, you would be bringing the horse in from the field, so why not rug before you put your horse away? And if you know your horse may attack you, surely this is a wise decision to take?

I was trying to offer the OP some help with their particular situation, in a perfect situation, yes you should be able to do as you like with a horse tied, but clearly this isn't a perfect situation, so for the OP to stay safe, my advice would be to leave the horse alone in their stable, sometimes you do have to work around things.
 
equitum said:
I was trying to offer the OP some help with their particular situation, in a perfect situation, yes you should be able to do as you like with a horse tied, but clearly this isn't a perfect situation, so for the OP to stay safe, my advice would be to leave the horse alone in their stable, sometimes you do have to work around things.
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Yes, I suppose it comes down to our attitude when the horse is unhappy in a situation. Do we find ways to work round it to remain safe and prevent the attack(in this case) while we work on trying to solve the horses' problem or do we insist by any means because we are the boss?
 
amandap said:
Yes, I suppose it comes down to our attitude when the horse is unhappy in a situation. Do we find ways to work round it to remain safe and prevent the attack(in this case) while we work on trying to solve the horses' problem or do we insist by any means because we are the boss?
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I go with the theory that I am the boss, but that horses are far bigger than me, so safety first, imo! No sense in setting you and horse up to fail.
 
Arizahn said:
I go with the theory that I am the boss, but that horses are far bigger than me, so safety first, imo! No sense in setting you and horse up to fail.
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Couldn't agree more about safety first - I think that goes without saying. If there is a debate at all, it's about how to achieve an acceptable level of safety assuming that you're going to be working closely with horses, either on the ground or in the saddle. (Obviously one way to stay safe is just to stay away from horses - but that's not terribly helpful advice for most of us!)

When I'm with horses I need to be in control of the situation, though not necessarily controlling the horse in the sense of micromanaging or dictating every single thing the horse does.

I suppose "I am the boss" describes this well enough. However, the word "boss" has a certain amount of baggage because it could be taken to imply that for a person to be in control he or she has to be just like the herd boss (whatever that is!). While it's an attractive idea for some, I have grave misgivings about it and baulk at any suggestion of emulating dominant horses. In fact, I would argue that it's entirely possible to be safe and in control without being authoritarian, bossy, aggressive, dominant, dictatorial... and, indeed, really good horsemen are none of these.
 
fburton said:
I suppose "I am the boss" describes this well enough. However, the word "boss" has a certain amount of baggage because it could be taken to imply that for a person to be in control he or she has to be just like the herd boss (whatever that is!). While it's an attractive idea for some, I have grave misgivings about it and baulk at any suggestion of emulating dominant horses. In fact, I would argue that it's entirely possible to be safe and in control without being authoritarian, bossy, aggressive, dominant, dictatorial... and, indeed, really good horsemen are none of these.
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Dominant is the correct aspect to aim for - horses only get truly aggressive when their polite body language has failed!

YOU are the herds leader and as such your request should be obeyed without question - but to get to that point you may have to exert some higher level authority - I've had a friend who bit her horses ear in desperation/frustration because it constantly went to bite her! It worked, the horse finally agreed that she was the boss and stopped trying to bite.

Spend some time watching a herd especially when there is a new member added to it. Watch the body language. One of mine used to get a bit pushy with feed around, I'd stand tall, stick my chest out, look her in the eye and stamp a foot and then firmly step into her space - she'd immediately back off. Body language is very powerful as is the mind.

Go into the box with a clear and determined mind, tie her up short as you should whenever you are working on the horse - one of the first rules I was taught when I started my training. Be firm and precise with your movements so that you are least irritating.

While she is tied up, put in the feed and hay net. Then untie her, turn her to face the door and slip off the head collar. You will then be able to leave the box in one piece. Do this every time and she will eventually understand that good things come to those that wait!

* When I say tie short I do really mean short and if possible to a higher up ring. Tie up rings at chest height are useless - I like mine at about eye level, it restrains the horse better and tends to be more useful at that height if a horse is prone to pulling back.
 
Its been nearly 2 weeks since the ****** bit me. She bit me on the Saturday and from Sunday morning I meant serious business with no messing, its been hard but I have adopted a very business like approach. I still give her love and attention but to the extent i was.

My mare is used to having everything done in her stable, being an ex racer I suppose, so tying up outside can be done but with all the jigging and faffing around she does its far more relaxed for both of us inside.

The first change I made, as it was the simplest, was feeding and leaving her alone.

Second change was tying up inside. What took me by surprise was her reaction to being tied up short in the stable, by reaction I mean there wasn't one (my gelding would have broken free if I dare tie him up in the stable).

She is short enough to be able to move her head to eat hay (I tie her to the haynet ring via twine) but not enough to swing the head round. She stood there calmly and perfectly well behaved, this haynet is to keep her occupied im not going to punish her by not having one there. She hasn't attempted to try and bring her head round to bite. In fact she is more obnoxious when loose. I now suspect she has been tied up short inside before, possibly when she was racing.

So at the moment 2 simple changes have made her happy, she doesn't hate me for it, she hasn't objected and so i'm happy.

I will never forget though she has that inclination to bite and when in a situation when not tied up I will be very mindful of it.

Hitting, screaming, waving my arms about doesn't work she just fronts up to me and I can see her saying 'bring it on'. When she is loose and gives me 'the glare' I find the most effective method is to simply ignore her!

Thank you all for your replies, I appreciated all of them and being my first TB (my other horses have been cobs who were not sensitive in the slightest) I have very quickly realised what a sensitive soul she is x
 
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It happened to me at work once with a stallion i was just tying up his net and he got me as quick as lightning on the thigh never had a bruise bigger it bloody hurt unfortunatly being a clients horse i couldnt do much about it but i left the stable
bloody quickly ! My arab once bit me on the arse whilst picking out his front feet and to this day i dont know how i managed to do it so quick but i whipped round and bit him really hard on his cheeck he was so surprised he never bit me again :-) but i did react so quickly
he knew what the punishment was for. I surprised myself that day with the speed i could bite back!
 
Alchemy said:
It happened to me at work once with a stallion i was just tying up his net and he got me as quick as lightning on the thigh never had a bruise bigger it bloody hurt unfortunatly being a clients horse i couldnt do much about it but i left the stable
bloody quickly ! My arab once bit me on the arse whilst picking out his front feet and to this day i dont know how i managed to do it so quick but i whipped round and bit him really hard on his cheeck he was so surprised he never bit me again :-) but i did react so quickly
he knew what the punishment was for. I surprised myself that day with the speed i could bite back!
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Mare was like lightening both occasions almost stealth like, you didn't see or hear it coming. She doesn't cope well with a physical attack from me, I haven't tried biting her back because i'm not quick enough and I don't like the idea of getting my face that close. Asking her to step back when I enter the stable has never been an issue, she respects that, and strangely enough if she ignores my hand a pinch and twist on the shoulder works well!
 
yaffsimone1 said:
Its been nearly 2 weeks since the ****** bit me. She bit me on the Saturday and from Sunday morning I meant serious business with no messing, its been hard but I have adopted a very business like approach. I still give her love and attention but to the extent i was.

My mare is used to having everything done in her stable, being an ex racer I suppose, so tying up outside can be done but with all the jigging and faffing around she does its far more relaxed for both of us inside.

The first change I made, as it was the simplest, was feeding and leaving her alone.

Second change was tying up inside. What took me by surprise was her reaction to being tied up short in the stable, by reaction I mean there wasn't one (my gelding would have broken free if I dare tie him up in the stable).

She is short enough to be able to move her head to eat hay (I tie her to the haynet ring via twine) but not enough to swing the head round. She stood there calmly and perfectly well behaved, this haynet is to keep her occupied im not going to punish her by not having one there. She hasn't attempted to try and bring her head round to bite. In fact she is more obnoxious when loose. I now suspect she has been tied up short inside before, possibly when she was racing.

So at the moment 2 simple changes have made her happy, she doesn't hate me for it, she hasn't objected and so i'm happy.

I will never forget though she has that inclination to bite and when in a situation when not tied up I will be very mindful of it.

Hitting, screaming, waving my arms about doesn't work she just fronts up to me and I can see her saying 'bring it on'. When she is loose and gives me 'the glare' I find the most effective method is to simply ignore her!

Thank you all for your replies, I appreciated all of them and being my first TB (my other horses have been cobs who were not sensitive in the slightest) I have very quickly realised what a sensitive soul she is x
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Fabulous outcome:)
 
Great update yaffsimone1. I think as you get to know and understand each other you may well be rewarded with a very special rapport. I found with my TB that asking lightly and seeing even the smallest response was a key. Getting stronger was out, timing and observing was in and appreciated I believe.

ps. Good luck. x
 
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I hope so, I think a lot of the time I expect too much. I've only had her since May and she did stand in a field for year before that! Your right about asking lightly, she doesn't need a strong touch, whispering, sometimes just a mothers glare is enough to make her think twice and a low growl all seem to work well.

If anything this has been an eye opener for me, I shouldn't keep referring to my cobs but they needed to be handled in a completely different way. With them it was fight strength with strength
 
amandap said:
Great update yaffsimone1. I think as you get to know and understand each other you may well be rewarded with a very special rapport. I found with my TB that asking lightly and seeing even the smallest response was a key. Getting stronger was out, timing and observing was in and appreciated I believe.

ps. Good luck. x
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I hope so, I think a lot of the time I expect too much. I've only had her since May and she did stand in a field for year before that! Your right about asking lightly, she doesn't need a strong touch, whispering, sometimes just a mothers glare is enough to make her think twice and a low growl all seem to work well.

If anything this has been an eye opener for me, I shouldn't keep referring to my cobs but they needed to be handled in a completely different way. With them it was fight strength with strength
 
Tnavas said:
Dominant is the correct aspect to aim for - horses only get truly aggressive when their polite body language has failed!
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Yes, but a dominant horse still exerts her dominance using threats of aggression/violence. I find it isn't necessary to do this at all in order to be in control and to have a 'respectful', cooperative horse. That doesn't mean I won't punish unwanted behaviours when I see fit, but that is purely a matter of ensuring that particular actions have particular consequences and nothing to do with posturing.

YOU are the herds leader
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I'm sorry but I don't think it is at all desirable for me, a person, to be seen in this way (as alpha dominant horse). And I have my doubts about whether it is really possible either.

(On the other hand, I would like herd members to consider me worth following by virtue of being someone whose judgement they trust - which is quite different from dominance.)

and as such your request should be obeyed without question - but to get to that point you may have to exert some higher level authority -
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Or train the horse to respond willingly to your requests. Isn't that effectively the same thing, just expressed differently?

I've had a friend who bit her horses ear in desperation/frustration because it constantly went to bite her! It worked, the horse finally agreed that she was the boss and stopped trying to bite.
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Well, that is one interpretation. Alternatively, biting the horse's ear was sufficient punishment to stop the unwanted behaviour without the horse viewing your friend as another horse.

Spend some time watching a herd especially when there is a new member added to it. Watch the body language.
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Sure, I've seen that countless times. However, I don't feel that aspect of equine social life is at all relevant to training. I know from experience it's not necessary for me to behave in any way resembling horses trying to sort out who should defer to (or get out of the way of) whom, with all the aggro and conflict that entails. Indeed, I've seen people getting into trouble when they go down that route.

One of mine used to get a bit pushy with feed around, I'd stand tall, stick my chest out, look her in the eye and stamp a foot and then firmly step into her space - she'd immediately back off. Body language is very powerful as is the mind.
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Here I agree with you. That kind of direct body language definitely has its uses, not routinely to control a horse's movements - in my view the risk of creating bad feeling or escalating conflict is too great (especially with horses that have a greater tendency to aggressiveness, like some stallions) - but as an occasional short term measure it's fine.

Go into the box with a clear and determined mind, tie her up short as you should whenever you are working on the horse - one of the first rules I was taught when I started my training. Be firm and precise with your movements so that you are least irritating.

While she is tied up, put in the feed and hay net. Then untie her, turn her to face the door and slip off the head collar. You will then be able to leave the box in one piece. Do this every time and she will eventually understand that good things come to those that wait!

* When I say tie short I do really mean short and if possible to a higher up ring. Tie up rings at chest height are useless - I like mine at about eye level, it restrains the horse better and tends to be more useful at that height if a horse is prone to pulling back.
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I agree with all of this too. Clarity, determination, confidence, precision - these are all essential qualities for working with horses.
 
Dominance is the wrong thing to aim for, dominant horses use dominance, and you won't out dominate a dominant horse and it will get you when it chooses.

Lead horses are leaders not dominants. They may on occasion use dominant behavior, but they won't get into a fight with a dominant horse.
 
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Pale Rider said:
Lead horses are leaders not dominants. They may on occasion use dominant behavior,
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Lol! This is what I have struggled with for many years on these fora. To fit with my world I have invented my term of aggressive dominance. ;) fburton will now kill me! I find it all easier now I have come to understand the behavioural meaning of 'dominant' better though.
 
amandap said:
Lol! This is what I have struggled with for many years on these fora. To fit with my world I have invented my term of aggressive dominance. ;) fburton will now kill me!
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Not at all! :D I really think your posts in past debates and discussions have helped me to express myself better - and have made me think.
 
Well done OP. It sounds like you've come to an understanding with your mare. It's too easy to get convinced that because horses are all big strong creatures that we have to use more force to get them to comply with our needs. I was told the same but then found out that it's often the lightest touch that has more effect and I'd include the cob I share with a friend in this too. Once I stopped listening to the " give 'em a whack and let him know who is boss" advice and started the light but positive touch, we got on much better. Mind you he still got the rubber curry comb on his nozzle when he tried nipping me!
Good post fburton :)
 
yaffsimone1 said:
I hope so, I think a lot of the time I expect too much. I've only had her since May and she did stand in a field for year before that! Your right about asking lightly, she doesn't need a strong touch, whispering, sometimes just a mothers glare is enough to make her think twice and a low growl all seem to work well.

If anything this has been an eye opener for me, I shouldn't keep referring to my cobs but they needed to be handled in a completely different way. With them it was fight strength with strength
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Thanks for the update, I'm glad both you and the horse are more comfortable together.

FWIW, my Draft horse (who is far more like a cob than a TB!) was known as a biter when I got her. I found that the tack bought with her didn't fit and that this - and clumsy handling- was the reason that she had regularly threatened and bitten her previous owners. I never tied her up but always gave her some hay to nibble while I dealt with her, groomed very carefully, especially round her head, stripped the saddle down and put it on very slowly and carefully and made sure that her ears were never pinched by her bridle. I folded rugs a la BHS to put them on. I held her head if I needed to do something that she might object to.
I didn't try to dominate her but just got on with things in a quiet, business-like but careful way, talking to her all the time. 3 yrs later I can do absolutely anything with her loose in the stable, including clipping.
I hope that you can develop a similarly trusting relationship with your mare.
 
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