Teaching a horse not to kick other horses?

[fattylumpkin]

My mare tends to kick other horses that come up close behind her, ridden or unridden. She's 100% fine with cats, dogs, bikes, cars and people coming close behind, but not horses. If I'm riding and someone gets too close I can feel her starting to get antsy so I either shift her out of the way or tell the other rider to give her some space. Her kick zone seems to be about 1m wide, which is quite small really, but woe betide any horse who steps into her personal space. She always gives a lot of warnings before the kick happens, but sometimes it's been unavoidable and she's double barrelled YO's horse once after he spooked which was embarassing. Generally on group hacks we've been fine because I usually stay at the back or ride with people who understand not to get too close, but there is one young girl who lets her pony trot up behind my mare until his nose is practically brushing her tail, so poor pony has been wellied a few times too. Rider is 13yo and has been told a thousand times not to do it, but it goes in one ear and out the other. I also don't feel like I can ride in group lessons at the riding club, even with a red ribbon. It'd be easiest if I could find some way to wean her out of the habit! Has anybody successfully cured this???

 

[Simbacat]

You may not like the sound of this but I have played polocrosse where its absolutely forbidden. Get an experienced volunteer to ride close to you and when she goes to strike out hit her with a whip. Sorry it sounds so ugly, and dangerous, but it does work.

 

[AmyMay]

Well you can either leather her, or carry on as you're doing.

Nothing worse than a kicker.

 

[mightymammoth]

I have a similar problem at times with my gelding but it's never been a problem. I manage him by always riding at the back, keeping him unshod, and him being on individual turnout. Everyone at the yard knows he can (doesn't always) kick if they bring there horses behind him.

I also wouldn't tie up/tack up outside the stable as there is more of a risk of horses walking behind him.

 

[fattylumpkin]

I didn't mention this and probably should have, but she's already been well and truly 'leathered' by an instructor before she came to me. Instructor tried whipping her while ridden in the arena if she offered to kick and when that didn't work he had someone hold her, then stood behind her and laid into her rear with double-handed swings of a dressage whip while other horses passed by. She was also whipped by her trainer when she was sulky racing whenever she started to canter, so the horse already has a bunch of problems associated with whips. From what I hear from people who knew the horse in her old life, she hadn't been a kicker until she met that instructor, so the fact is whipping has cemented the problem. Since it's taken me a year to get her used to whips and crops again I'd really rather not undo all of that. Surely there's other ways to fix the problem?

 

[Simbacat]

Maybe you could get the volunteer to wear leg protectors (like skate boarders do ) just in case, as horses tend to turn sideways when they are kicked which is why the rider often gets it in the leg...aoouch!

 

[Simbacat]

Oh sorry missed that post, not sure what to do then...

 

[mightymammoth]

I'm not sure if that habit can be undone just managed. Mine does it when he feels threatened he seems to panic when they are in his personal space uninvited. Belting him made no difference.

 

[Caol Ila]

Can you set up a situation where, as soon as she threatens to kick, you make her do something hard, like spin her tiny circles or reinback across half the arena. Don't have to leather her. If the ears don't go back, you let her rest. Rinse and repeat. If on the ground, I would make the horse back up across the yard if it threatened another horse. This has worked with my horse, at any rate, who can be aggressive towards other horses and has to be in individual turnout, but can be safely handled and ridden with other horses because she knows the rules.

 

[Equi]

She is kicking because she doesn't like things behind her, and if shes been lathered so extensively then that is not unjustfiable!

Get her trust back up and try desensitising her to thing behind her, just take it slow and the second she starts to get uncomfortable move back and start again. Hitting a horse that is afraid is never going to make it not afraid.

 

[amandap]

I'm not sure if that habit can be undone just managed. Mine does it when he feels threatened he seems to panic when they are in his personal space uninvited. Belting him made no difference.

I've nothing helpful to say except this sounds a good option. Managing this may be the main answer. Red ribbon in tail as well at all times when ridden in company. There may be a careful way of retraining/changing attitude/fear of horses close behind but it's out of my experience.
Perhaps the 13 year old can't stop her pony getting too close?

 

[chotty]

Mine does this as well. She hates other horses being near her, either behind or to the side because she was turned out with a lot of others when she was a broodmare for a while, and was basically feral so had to defend her food. Mine will lunge at horses over the stable as well if they watch her eat. She doesn't bite them though, just pulls faces.

Will be watching this thread, as I don't want to 'leather' my horse either.

 

[LittleBlackMule]

I didn't mention this and probably should have, but she's already been well and truly 'leathered' by an instructor before she came to me. Instructor tried whipping her while ridden in the arena if she offered to kick and when that didn't work he had someone hold her, then stood behind her and laid into her rear with double-handed swings of a dressage whip while other horses passed by. She was also whipped by her trainer when she was sulky racing whenever she started to canter, so the horse already has a bunch of problems associated with whips.

Yes, this exactly why she is so defensive about anyone behind her. 'Instructor' my ar*e, incompetent tit more like.

In the short term, you are best continuing to manage the problem as you are, but the worst thing you can do is get aggressive with her when she mis-behaves as it will just compound her issues.
When another horse comes up behind her, try just swinging her quarters over rather than moving her way completely, as then she can face the oncoming horse and see it isn't a threat. I suspect part of her problem is not being able to fully view what is coming up behind and so is just defending herself automatically.

Are you able to set up a situation where you can get a couple of friends to continually ride up behind/past you as you ride in a school or field? They can keep at a safe distance initially then get closer and closer as you reward/praise any non-reaction on her part.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I didn't mention this and probably should have, but she's already been well and truly 'leathered' by an instructor before she came to me. Instructor tried whipping her while ridden in the arena if she offered to kick and when that didn't work he had someone hold her, then stood behind her and laid into her rear with double-handed swings of a dressage whip while other horses passed by. She was also whipped by her trainer when she was sulky racing whenever she started to canter, so the horse already has a bunch of problems associated with whips. From what I hear from people who knew the horse in her old life, she hadn't been a kicker until she met that instructor, so the fact is whipping has cemented the problem. Since it's taken me a year to get her used to whips and crops again I'd really rather not undo all of that. Surely there's other ways to fix the problem?

No wonder she kicks out!

One of the first things I was taught when at a RS many years ago was to keep a horse-length between horses in all directions - and woe betide any-one who let them get too close to each other!
It really drives me mad when people won't take responsibility for the horse they are riding and blame the person riding the horse which was standing still at the time the incident happened.
As for incidents in the field most horses are perfectly capable of looking after themselves by reading other horses' body language *IF* there is enough room for them all on the grazing. So again it boils down to the humans taking responsibility.
If you are really concerned that she will do some damage and you and she will get the blame for conditions being less than ideal, you could remove her back shoes.

ETA I can only agree with fattylumpkin's assessment of this 'instructor'.

 

[Orangehorse]

I had a mare that kicked too in company too, and I never did find out how to stop it.

Apart from swift retribution from a whip, which obviously doesn't work in many cases, I would be very interested to hear of any alternative solutions.

I think the backing-up one sounds good but it sounds as if it needs to be done by someone who has lots of experience and very good feel and good timing.

 

[Orangehorse]

No wonder she kicks out!

One of the first things I was taught when at a RS many years ago was to keep a horse-length between horses in all directions - and woe betide any-one who let them get too close to each other!
It really drives me mad when people won't take responsibility for the horse they are riding and blame the person riding the horse which was standing still at the time the incident happened.
As for incidents in the field most horses are perfectly capable of looking after themselves by reading other horses' body language *IF* there is enough room for them all on the grazing. So again it boils down to the humans taking responsibility.
If you are really concerned that she will do some damage and you and she will get the blame for conditions being less than ideal, you could remove her back shoes.

ETA I can only agree with fattylumpkin's assessment of this 'instructor'.

Well that is OK in theory and is something we have all been taught, but horses don't always read the instruction books and at times they get excited and bunch up - and what about hunting when everyone
crowds through a gateway or for a jump. Some horses must have been taught not to obey their natural instincts and kick. Our master paid a lot for a new horse, but sent it back because it kicked, so presumably the vendors had tried lotsof different things to teach it not to, which hadn't worked.

 

[amandap]

When another horse comes up behind her, try just swinging her quarters over rather than moving her way completely, as then she can face the oncoming horse and see it isn't a threat. I suspect part of her problem is not being able to fully view what is coming up behind and so is just defending herself automatically.

Are you able to set up a situation where you can get a couple of friends to continually ride up behind/past you as you ride in a school or field? They can keep at a safe distance initially then get closer and closer as you reward/praise any non-reaction on her part.

I think these are good suggestions. I doubt we will ever know exactly why some horses are like this but it doesn't hurt to explore possibilities such as a horse feels vulnerable for some or a few reasons and is defending itself. Is life good, is the horse unwell or in discomfort in any way we might have missed? Obviously once the behaviour is established it may always be a default mode. Training is part of the answer to most problems.
I was thinking about horses that usually give a warning we can see and realized that when horses are ridden, they often have to ignore these warnings due to rider instruction/control. So riders do have to take responsibility and account of these horses and try to avoid accidents. We can't always have our cake and eat it!

 

[PolarSkye]

Nothing worse than a kicker.

Completely agree. I know that ALL horses can and will strike out behind if they feel threatened or are startled, but a horse who habitually kicks (and/or goes out of his/her way to batter another horse with its feet) is at best a real pain in the behind and at worst downright dangerous.

That said, I have nothing constructive to say - sorry . What a difficult problem you have to solve.

P

 

[PolarSkye]

I didn't mention this and probably should have, but she's already been well and truly 'leathered' by an instructor before she came to me. Instructor tried whipping her while ridden in the arena if she offered to kick and when that didn't work he had someone hold her, then stood behind her and laid into her rear with double-handed swings of a dressage whip while other horses passed by. She was also whipped by her trainer when she was sulky racing whenever she started to canter, so the horse already has a bunch of problems associated with whips. From what I hear from people who knew the horse in her old life, she hadn't been a kicker until she met that instructor, so the fact is whipping has cemented the problem. Since it's taken me a year to get her used to whips and crops again I'd really rather not undo all of that. Surely there's other ways to fix the problem?

Oh poor girl. No wonder she kicks!

P

 

[Mongoose11]

Mine has never kicked but ALWAYS threatens to kick when something gets too close. She sometimes comes well close enough to kick but never connects so it isn't a try intention but always a warning. I just manage it. Don't tie up in tight spaces, make sure there is enough space when moving around the yard, ask for a stable at the end of the row rather than the middle...

'Leather' is not the answer here. What a stupid suggestion.

 

[fattylumpkin]

Can you set up a situation where, as soon as she threatens to kick, you make her do something hard, like spin her tiny circles or reinback across half the arena. Don't have to leather her. If the ears don't go back, you let her rest. Rinse and repeat. If on the ground, I would make the horse back up across the yard if it threatened another horse. This has worked with my horse, at any rate, who can be aggressive towards other horses and has to be in individual turnout, but can be safely handled and ridden with other horses because she knows the rules.

When another horse comes up behind her, try just swinging her quarters over rather than moving her way completely, as then she can face the oncoming horse and see it isn't a threat. I suspect part of her problem is not being able to fully view what is coming up behind and so is just defending herself automatically.

Are you able to set up a situation where you can get a couple of friends to continually ride up behind/past you as you ride in a school or field? They can keep at a safe distance initially then get closer and closer as you reward/praise any non-reaction on her part.

Thankyou so much for these and to everyone else! I'm going to try turning her around tonight instead of just moving her to the side. I've found a willing guinea pig in the form of a friend who hacks out with me a lot and she can be trusted to keep herself out of harm's way while we work on it. Fingers crossed, this could work!

The 13yo I mentioned sometimes does have difficulties with her pony, so we do try to be as patient and helpful, but frustratingly she is one of those kids who won't be told by anybody what to do. Usually when she lets her pony run into the back of my mare it's because she's busy playing with her phone and not looking where she's going sadly she's been set a bad example by some of the older riders at the club, but since she's perfectly lovely and friendly otherwise we don't mind tolerating the odd bit of silly behavior.

 

[amandap]

Ah, phones etc. have a lot to answer for! lol Teenagers often have so much going on in their heads!
Good luck.

 

[Spring Feather]

I have a pony here who is a very laid back pony and gets along with everyone. She's 7 years old and every herd she's lived in, they love her. It's quite rare to have a kicker, but we have had a couple arrive at our farm over the years and all I've done is put them in with the pony. The pony is so placid normally, however if anyone tries to kick out, she will go into overdrive and continually boot the cr4p out of them until they back down and leave with their tail between their legs. That has well and truly sorted out the couple of kickers we have here, I've never seen them take on any other horses since (and they've been here years now).

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Well that is OK in theory and is something we have all been taught, but horses don't always read the instruction books and at times they get excited and bunch up - and what about hunting when everyone
crowds through a gateway or for a jump. Some horses must have been taught not to obey their natural instincts and kick. Our master paid a lot for a new horse, but sent it back because it kicked, so presumably the vendors had tried lotsof different things to teach it not to, which hadn't worked.

In which case it wasn't suitable for hunting.
If OP's horse is regularly kicking other horses, either she or the other riders are at fault. She isn't talking about being on the hunting field but in lessons or hacking, as I read the post.
The point is that it is nigh on impossible to teach a horse not to kick if it feels threatened, the trick is to not put it in that position in the first place. My mare is protective of her personal space, especially with horses she doesn't know well, so we usually stay at the back in any group situation. She doesn't wear back shoes, so if she did happen to land out, she wouldn't do as much damage as if she were shod.

 

[ChesnutsRoasting]

Well that is OK in theory and is something we have all been taught, but horses don't always read the instruction books and at times they get excited and bunch up - and what about hunting when everyone
crowds through a gateway or for a jump. Some horses must have been taught not to obey their natural instincts and kick. Our master paid a lot for a new horse, but sent it back because it kicked, so presumably the vendors had tried lotsof different things to teach it not to, which hadn't worked.

If riders kept their distance whether hunting, in the school or out hacking there wouldn't be a problem. If riders can't keep their distance then c'est la vie. Accidents happen granted, but forewarned is forearmed - one horses distance is a very important lesson to learn if you don't want a fractured femur (yours).

 

[mynutmeg]

I didn't mention this and probably should have, but she's already been well and truly 'leathered' by an instructor before she came to me. Instructor tried whipping her while ridden in the arena if she offered to kick and when that didn't work he had someone hold her, then stood behind her and laid into her rear with double-handed swings of a dressage whip while other horses passed by. She was also whipped by her trainer when she was sulky racing whenever she started to canter, so the horse already has a bunch of problems associated with whips. From what I hear from people who knew the horse in her old life, she hadn't been a kicker until she met that instructor, so the fact is whipping has cemented the problem. Since it's taken me a year to get her used to whips and crops again I'd really rather not undo all of that. Surely there's other ways to fix the problem?

Well theres the problem!! No wonder the poor girl freaks and kicks out when horses go up behind her.

My girl used to be really abd in company - she had to be at the back. She is a lot better now but still wouldn't trust her 100%.
The main way I've worked with her is that I can feel when she's starting to feel threatened and so ask her to move her butt away from the other horse so she can't kick them and turn her head towards the other horse. It helps to take her out with horses she's comfortable with. She has always been worse the faster we go but has recently got to the point where she can trot alongside / slightly in front of horses she knows and trusts but I have to be aware of who we're out with.
I keep her towards the back of a group, she's never shod and I warn people. (I also wouldn't ever take her hunting)

She has also improved in the areana simply by working her near to other horses and getting her more comfortable with that, partly by working her when she starts threatening.

 

[HashRouge]

I honestly don't think you can solve this problem, only manage it as someone said earlier.

There is a difference between horses who sometimes kick out and horses who are kickers. I've owned a kicker for nearly 13 years and her response to a horse coming too close to her from the side or behind is almost always to lash out. There is no sometimes about it. It is different in the field where she can just move out of the way (she is not dominant), but it was something I always had to be careful of when she was ridden (she is retired now) or if she is tied up on the yard or being led near to another horse. I was 11 when I first got her so my initial way of dealing with it was simply to ride at the back, all the time, and to make sure that other people were always aware she was a kicker. The longer I owned her the better I got at reading the signs - I could sense her getting unhappy even before her ears went back so I was able to move her out of the situation before anything happened. She was also better if she was ridden with a horse that she was familiar with and used to being ridden with. So I used to hack with my younger sister a lot and it got to the stage where my sister was using my mare's back end as a buffer whenever we cantered without anything happening (although I always told her off about it). I currently keep her with my sister's new horse and she is very good with him because she is so used to him. Obviously I don't ride her anymore, but I can lead them to and from the field together without any problems.

I really don't think "leathering" horses like this works at all. I think that lashing out the way they do is very much a reflex action, so teaching them not to do it is nigh on impossible. I think it is often a learned behaviour, resulting from something in their past that has taught them to be wary of other horses moving into their personal space (I'm not talking about horses who beat others up here, but ones who lash out instinctively as a defence mechanism). Someone told me that some mares who are bred from at a young age can be shy of horses coming up behind them. I don't know how true this is, but I know my mare was at stud as a 3 year old. She also used to live in a herd where they were all fed together so it was a case of fight for your food. I think this sort of situation can lead some horses to become quite defensive. Things like moving them around when they threaten to kick might stop them kicking in the moment, but I'd be surprised if it stops the behaviour altogether. There are definitely things you can do to manage the behaviour though. You need to really be on the ball with them - move them out of situations where they feel threatened and are likely to lash out, try to stop others getting too close, ride with horses they are familiar with etc. Unfortunately for you OP people riding up behind you is one of the worst things for horses like this! I used to get it all the time despite warning people that she kicked. Can you perhaps not ride at the back but position yourself between two horses with sensible riders so that there is always someone else between you and this girl? I don't know if that would work.

I would be interested to hear more about the horses mentioned on this thread who are kickers. I.e. are they dominant or fairly low in the pecking order, mare or gelding, history, temperament etc. There must be something that causes them to be the way they are. I know my own mare is not malicious - she likes other horses, she is not dominant in the field or a bully, she is great with people and never kicks out at them (I could run up behind her and she wouldn't blink) and I'd trust her with little kids, but for whatever reason she is very wary of horses moving into her personal space when she can't get out of the way easily.

 

[AmyMay]

I didn't mention this and probably should have, but she's already been well and truly 'leathered' by an instructor before she came to me. Instructor tried whipping her while ridden in the arena if she offered to kick and when that didn't work he had someone hold her, then stood behind her and laid into her rear with double-handed swings of a dressage whip while other horses passed by. She was also whipped by her trainer when she was sulky racing whenever she started to canter, so the horse already has a bunch of problems associated with whips. From what I hear from people who knew the horse in her old life, she hadn't been a kicker until she met that instructor, so the fact is whipping has cemented the problem. Since it's taken me a year to get her used to whips and crops again I'd really rather not undo all of that. Surely there's other ways to fix the problem?

Poor, poor mare. No wonder you have a problem.

I suspect you're just going to have to manage it, as she's been completely ruined.

Poor horse.

 

[Mongoose11]

Poor, poor mare. No wonder you have a problem.

I suspect you're just going to have to manage it, as she's been completely ruined.

Poor horse.

But you were suggesting exactly that solution; a leathering and yet you now think she is a 'poor mare' for having been leathered.

 

[AmyMay]

But you were suggesting exactly that solution; a leathering and yet you now think she is a 'poor mare' for having been leathered.

Yes, my phrasing was unfortunate.

There's a huge difference between three short, sharp cracks and what this mare has actually experienced.