Teaching a horse to soften at the mouth? Help please?

[sandi_84]

I have been told that little "squeeze a sponge" take and give type motions with the inside rein will help bring my boys head down and encourage him to soften at the mouth but whenever I try this he puts his head futher up and fights for controll.
He has no problems with his bit that I can tell, no pain and his teeth were done not that long ago. i.e when I ask for half halts or a slowing down with the outside rein he doesn't fight, when asking for turns to the inside there is no fight and when asking for a full halt... no fight. Please note I do all these things with leg aids too!
We had an interesting schooling session today where I was asking for a 10m circle and he wanted to go back out to the outside track where he could see the horses in the field, my firmer leg aids and take and give of the inside rein just resulted in him putting his head up and doing kind of little bounces (the only way I can think to describe it). Ended up working on 10m circles at A till we got them right because I was pretty certain it was just a bit of mikey taking on his part...
Am I doing something wrong or is it just because this is a new thing I'm trying to teach and it'll come eventually?

 

[CrazyMare]

Don't fix on getting 'his head down', the outline and positioning of the head and neck come from the horse working through from behind.

You can't have a true 'outline' until you have control of the bend and the speed, so work on transitions between and within the pace, spiralling circles in and out - slowly, so go in/out a metre or so each circle rather than diving straight in and back out. That will help you gain control of the outside shoulder.

Keep the rein soft and consistent

 

[sandi_84]

Thank you crazy mare, i'll definately give that a go tomorrow
Do you think the fight was just because I was asking for something he's not used to then?
P.s I know I can't "make" him work in outline, don't want to give the impression that I was attempting to winch him down, was just trying to get him to soften his jaw and lower his head a little, he's not doing giraffe impressions anymore though. He does do long and low naturally with a nice active walk - maybe that's totally irrelevant but I was quite impressed that it was something he fell into doing when he was given a long rein - so he can lower his head without falling over

 

[xxMozlarxx]

You actually want your horse to soften at the poll, is he soft before you try 10 metre circles or are you trying to use 10 metre circles to soften him?

 

[Mlini]

Don't fix on getting 'his head down', the outline and positioning of the head and neck come from the horse working through from behind.

You can't have a true 'outline' until you have control of the bend and the speed, so work on transitions between and within the pace, spiralling circles in and out - slowly, so go in/out a metre or so each circle rather than diving straight in and back out. That will help you gain control of the outside shoulder.

Keep the rein soft and consistent

^^Great advice

I had been having similar problems with my boy. It all boiled down to him not being strong/balanced enough to carry himself that way. He tenses through his mouth and neck when he's struggling and becomes very difficult to ride on circles.

I work on circles, spiralling in and out in a really slow trot, getting him to relax and stretch down. The slower his pace is, the easier it is for him.

Also, if his head carriage is VERY high, I would get saddle & back checked. Mine had pelvic problems and the saddle wasn't quite right. Now, he's coming along rather quickly. I use a market harborough to stop him throwing his head up too high (which he does when he's excited)

 

[sandi_84]

You actually want your horse to soften at the poll, is he soft before you try 10 metre circles or are you trying to use 10 metre circles to soften him?

Oops sorry No not particularly, like I say he's not going about like a giraffe when we get into the school anymore (excitement because it was a fairly new experience) but he does tend to go about with his head up a bit and his nose poking out a bit. Have been told by my instructer it's time to teach him to soften.
I'm not using 10m circles to try to soften, it's just one of the things that we use in our schooling sessions - transitions, circles 20m/10m, changes of rein, serpentines etc etc.
It just so happened that I was doing a 20m circles at C, decreasing to 10m and then repeating at A. I was attempting to get him to soften down the long side between circles. It was at A he decided he'd much rather marestare than work and kept trying to swing out to the outside track towards the mid point at B & F (P?) where he could get the best view of the horses in the field. When I kicked on and squeezed with my legs and with the inside rein to get him to bend he decided he was going to put his head up higher, speed up a little and sort of hop on over to the fence line.
My sister came over to watch and I said look, we're having a cheeky moment - at which point obviously he went back to being Mr Lovely and did the 10m circle no problem

 

[sandi_84]

Also, if his head carriage is VERY high, I would get saddle & back checked. Mine had pelvic problems and the saddle wasn't quite right. Now, he's coming along rather quickly. I use a market harborough to stop him throwing his head up too high (which he does when he's excited)

It's not that bad really, definately not even close to holding it up high enough for it to be worrying, it's just that he goes about with his nose out and he could do with bringing it in and his head down a teeny amount. You know the "i'm a donkey" look? He is quite green, hadn't been schooled hardly at all (if any) before he came to me but he has progressed loads. Yes I'm probably a nutcase for taking on such a green horse what with being such a novicy rider (massive break from riding!) but our instructor thinks we are well matched and thinks we are both making great strides at improving

 

[Tinsel Trouble]

Invest in a bungee. It's a piece of elastic that goes over the head and attaches to the girth- it hangs lose when the horse is working down, but the horse puts pressure against it when they try to raise their heads. They're fully adjustable and NOT attached to your hands- it's a total life saver.

I had one llamma-horse that I used a bungee on. He would stick his head up and run with big powerful shoulders going everywhere!! Within 6 weeks we were being placed at walk and trot tests!

 

[sandi_84]

Cheers everyone! I'm not planning on competing at all, I'm just a happy hacker at heart but I know that a horse working in outline is working all it's muscles properly and it was just something my instructor said we could move on to trying. I was just worried that I was doing it totally wrong and would do more harm than good

 

[Cupcakes and Horses]

My boy is very much a work in progress still, but when I work on circles I open my inside hand and squeeze the outside rein at the same time as I put my outside leg on, I am finding it really works to bring his head down and soften him.

As well as spiralling circles and transitions I also find leg yielding useful as it encourages him to engage his back end.

 

[sandi_84]

My boy is very much a work in progress still, but when I work on circles I open my inside hand and squeeze the outside rein at the same time as I put my outside leg on, I am finding it really works to bring his head down and soften him.

As well as spiralling circles and transitions I also find leg yielding useful as it encourages him to engage his back end.

We haven't even attempted proper leg yields yet , he does still occasionally meander off the outside track so I give him a squidge with my inside leg to move him back out but I couldn't tell you if it looked anything like a leg yield from the ground ha ha!

 

[Dirtymare]

My mare does this, although she does work in an outline, but tends to "sit" on a rein (not any particular rein either).
My instructor has taught me to flex her neck in halt so she drops and softens, then move up into walk and keep flexing from side to side every now and then to just keep checking. Then up into trot and so on. The minute she sits on a rein or becomes tense through her neck we come back down to halt and repeat the process. This way there is no fight and no gadgets, just repatition until she figures that this is the correct way.
Once she has the "brakes off", she then works from behind and across her back and actually lifts - and for an old cob that is something!
However this may not work for your horse. What does your instructor say?
Good luck

 

[sandi_84]

What does your instructor say?
Good luck

To try the "squeeze the sponge" method, it's a brand new thing for us both so we've just started doing it but get the head up not gonna do it fight Next lesson in a month because of easter camps so may just put that aside till we can get lessons again

 

[Dirtymare]

To try the "squeeze the sponge" method, it's a brand new thing for us both so we've just started doing it but get the head up not gonna do it fight

Yes, I was taught to think of the reins as sponges and squeeze them. However, it didnt quite get her relaxed enough.
I have found the flexing really works. Not so much that her nose is ends up round my toes, but little flexs just to get her to relax. Works a treat. Then she usually comes up with some other evasion, but hey, thats the joy of schooling.

 

[sandi_84]

Yes, I was taught to think of the reins as sponges and squeeze them. However, it didnt quite get her relaxed enough.
I have found the flexing really works. Not so much that her nose is ends up round my toes, but little flexs just to get her to relax. Works a treat. Then she usually comes up with some other evasion, but hey, thats the joy of schooling.

Ha ha very true, my boys favourite at first was the "gotta stop for a scratch" evasive manouver Will try the flex too and see how we get on with that, it may just be he's not a sponge lovin guy

 

[fidleyspromise]

My mare does this, although she does work in an outline, but tends to "sit" on a rein (not any particular rein either).
My instructor has taught me to flex her neck in halt so she drops and softens, then move up into walk and keep flexing from side to side every now and then to just keep checking. Then up into trot and so on. The minute she sits on a rein or becomes tense through her neck we come back down to halt and repeat the process. This way there is no fight and no gadgets, just repatition until she figures that this is the correct way.
Once she has the "brakes off", she then works from behind and across her back and actually lifts - and for an old cob that is something!
However this may not work for your horse. What does your instructor say?
Good luck

How do you get your horse to flex in walk or trot though? I've tried this in past. Halt = no problem. The minute I try while walking, she turns into middle of school or if try flexing to outside = we've ended up facing the wall.
She turns her whole body and doesn't actually flex. Not sure how to correct this? I was told to push whip into the offending shoulder to keep it straight but she ignores that.

 

[Deseado]

This is because your leg aids are not working (or you're not using your legs).

 

[xxMozlarxx]

My mare does this, although she does work in an outline, but tends to "sit" on a rein (not any particular rein either).
My instructor has taught me to flex her neck in halt so she drops and softens, then move up into walk and keep flexing from side to side every now and then to just keep checking. Then up into trot and so on. The minute she sits on a rein or becomes tense through her neck we come back down to halt and repeat the process. This way there is no fight and no gadgets, just repatition until she figures that this is the correct way.
Once she has the "brakes off", she then works from behind and across her back and actually lifts - and for an old cob that is something!
However this may not work for your horse. What does your instructor say?
Good luck

This is a good technique but remember not to saw, just take, take each side from your elbow with an immediate release, please dont use gadgets on such a green horse it is a quick fix. There is also a technique to soften the poll, think of turning a key in a lock, so your thumb starts off on top the you turn the key to the side pointing your thumb at the wall. It's all time and repetition. Don't forget to use your legs also ridng forward, straight and into the contact.

 

[Lintel]

Bending and flexing worked wonders for my boy! (of course over winter we have lost all this) and he now does the "I WILL NOT WORK IN A OUTLINE MUM" And gets all huffy.
Flexing him a bit before we even walked off also seemed to work very well, he was ridden in a french link snaffle. The fitter he got the better he worked as well.
My instructor did initially put a bungee on him, as he was just not coming down at all- but a couple of lessons in the bungee and he was really getting the idea.
The squeezing a sponge idea really did no good for my little man, how about trying bending and flexing. Backing up and releasing muscles also helped him beautifully.

Make sure your horse is fit enough though- and that you have warmed up
-Too short a warm up is defiantly my flaw! and- RIDE FORWARD

All the best x

 

[Mondy]

STOP - all of you - 'flexing' and fiddling and 'softening'.

Correct riding is not measured in the horse's neck and head position; pulling at the front only produces tensions and strains in muscles and tendons from tip of toe to poll. The resulting discomfort makes horses 'huffy'.

First of all make sure you sit correctly on the horse. No horse can work as it should if the rider's position is not correct. Then practice riding straight out with transitions in and between paces.

If you feel the need to pull, squeeze etc. it is a sure sign that your horse is not working properly; hand-work is a shortcut that gets you nowhere but on the forehand.

Besides - 'softening' the mouth by filing on it? I have never, never understood that one. The horse's mouth was always soft - human hands have made it hard.
Just to be clear, I put bits, both snaffle and double, in my horses' mouths. I just try not to use them.

 

[Dirtymare]

STOP - all of you - 'flexing' and fiddling and 'softening'.

Correct riding is not measured in the horse's neck and head position; pulling at the front only produces tensions and strains in muscles and tendons from tip of toe to poll. The resulting discomfort makes horses 'huffy'.

First of all make sure you sit correctly on the horse. No horse can work as it should if the rider's position is not correct. Then practice riding straight out with transitions in and between paces.

If you feel the need to pull, squeeze etc. it is a sure sign that your horse is not working properly; hand-work is a shortcut that gets you nowhere but on the forehand.

Besides - 'softening' the mouth by filing on it? I have never, never understood that one. The horse's mouth was always soft - human hands have made it hard.
Just to be clear, I put bits, both snaffle and double, in my horses' mouths. I just try not to use them.

Actually a top Portuguese classical dressage rider taught me to "sponge on the reins"!!!!. This was not working, so my instructor taught me to just flex from side to side. Not huge movements and not "fiddling" as you are suggesting which I do believe "sponging" to be.
If you watch some top showjumpers before an after their rounds, they flex their horses from side to side. It can relieve tension in some horse's. Think about what you would do to relieve some tension in your neck. Stretching is the best tension reliever.
Totally agree that the rider's position has a massive effect on the horse's way of going, and riders should be aware of how they sit.
I have never ever had anything stronger than a snaffle in my horse's mouth, and dont agree with anything stronger than this for schooling.
And like you, I totally disagree with gadgets. I dont even believe them to be a quick fix, but can make problems when they are removed.

 

[xxMozlarxx]

STOP - all of you - 'flexing' and fiddling and 'softening'.

Correct riding is not measured in the horse's neck and head position; pulling at the front only produces tensions and strains in muscles and tendons from tip of toe to poll. The resulting discomfort makes horses 'huffy'.

First of all make sure you sit correctly on the horse. No horse can work as it should if the rider's position is not correct. Then practice riding straight out with transitions in and between paces.

If you feel the need to pull, squeeze etc. it is a sure sign that your horse is not working properly; hand-work is a shortcut that gets you nowhere but on the forehand
Besides - 'softening' the mouth by filing on it? I have never, never understood that one. The horse's mouth was always soft - human hands have made it hard.
Just to be clear, I put bits, both snaffle and double, in my horses' mouths. I just try not to use them.[/QUOTE


Sorry but this is just inaccurate, it is perfectly appropriate to expect and train a horse to flex at the poll and jaw, these techniques are used by classical riders and trainers and do not encourage a horse on to the forehand. This 'handwork' that you comment on is a light conversation through the reins. Particularly effective with a horse with a high head carriage or particular strength , Carl Hester used a double bridle on Valegro at 6 due to his strength and lack of balance, he is now in a snaffle.

 

[xxMozlarxx]

Deleted as can't be bothered

 

[Littlelegs]

Op- there was a YouTube link in comp riders a few weeks ago about getting the horse working through its back. Can't for the life of me remember its name tho. This explains it better than I can. Once your horse is actually doing that its head will already be dropped.

 

[sandi_84]

Okey kokey I think we may have some crossed wires going on here, so I'll try to calm things down a bit ... hopefully

STOP - all of you - 'flexing' and fiddling and 'softening

Correct riding is not measured in the horse's neck and head position; pulling at the front only produces tensions and strains in muscles and tendons from tip of toe to poll. The resulting discomfort makes horses 'huffy'.

I am not pulling on my horse it's just a teeny tiny motion that is apparently supposed to encourage him to bring his nose a teeny tiny bit further down and in. I really dislike anyone pulling or yanking on a horses mouth, it was not how I was taught to ride! Legs legs legs and a tiny bit of hand.
The huffy behaviour shown by him was not because I was asking him to soften but because he wanted to nap to the outside of the school. If you meant about the bringing his head up a bit... well thats why I asked the question in the first place

First of all make sure you sit correctly on the horse. No horse can work as it should if the rider's position is not correct. Then practice riding straight out with transitions in and between paces.

Definately agree with this, I am very aware of where I am in the saddle and my position - with the help of my instructor is getting progressively better

If you feel the need to pull, squeeze etc. it is a sure sign that your horse is not working properly; hand-work is a shortcut that gets you nowhere but on the forehand.

Again please read my first comment^

Besides - 'softening' the mouth by filing on it? I have never, never understood that one. The horse's mouth was always soft - human hands have made it hard. I would never ever saw on my horses mouth, it would make for an unhappy, in discomfort, hard mouthed boy and an extreamly ashamed me!
Just to be clear, I put bits, both snaffle and double, in my horses' mouths. I just try not to use them.

He's in a snaffle and does not need anything stronger but does need little hand movements IN ADDITION to lots of leg aids at the moment as he is still learning

Hope this has made things a bit clearer? Please everyone, play nice!

 

[much-jittering]

Ditto what everybody else has said about flexing etc as an alternative route, not only working on flexing through the body but also thinking specifically about flexing just at the poll. You might have to have a play standing on the ground in front of him to intorudce the idea of a little pressure on the rein meaning just flex at that joint rather than further back, but once he's cracked it it's a really useful tool once you're in the saddle. A great exercise an instructor gave me once was imagine you're riding in the dark and horse has a headlight in the middle of his forehead, and if it's not shinining the right way he's going to fall over - makes you ride them truly straight down the long side, and then just flex at the poll to 'look' round the corners.

Once you've cracked it and he's understanding that idea of straightness, then just the little flexion at the poll before his body curves round the corner, get somebody in the arena to shout corner each time you're coming up to one - and ride with your eyes closed for a few laps (horse has to be concentrating obviously, not somthing to do in a howling gale!) so you are just applying the correct aids at the correct time, without the benefit of being able to look! Sounds mad, but really revealing

 

[sandi_84]

P.s my brian was taking a leave of absence when I posted this thread and I actually did mean soften at the poll. One of the earlier replies pointed out my mistake

 

[xxMozlarxx]

Op- there was a YouTube link in comp riders a few weeks ago about getting the horse working through its back. Can't for the life of me remember its name tho. This explains it better than I can. Once your horse is actually doing that its head will already be dropped.

Yes i saw that link and it was excellent, its how we should all start our schooling however some horses need help and direction to lower their head to work through the back, and the OPs horse is one of those.
OP..we don't need to be told to play nice, we are adults debating a point??

 

[Littlelegs]

Mozlar- I believe that link is not just a way to start schooling, but the basis of all schooling. I don't disagree some horses may need some encouragement to lower the poll to engage the back, but from what the op has said i'm not convinced hers is one. The problem seems to be when she asks him to lower his poll with the contact, but he's long & low in a free walk in a loose rein. This to me implies he just isn't ready for the contact she's asking for. Hence why I believe watching the vid will explain why he is evading her aids, & he just needs time to build the muscle required.

 

[xxMozlarxx]

You seem to be misunderstanding what I'm saying, you wouldn't continue to school a horse in that manner 2 years down the line other than for the warm up so it's how we should all start schooling our horses. Encouragement of long and low is of course the key, to stretch over the back poll level with withers it's all fairly standard accessible stuff not rocket science. I've rehabbed KS and now bringing on a young strong star gazer.