Teaching horses manners...Thou must not kick out at other horses...

Orchardbeck

Orchardbeck

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Ok, I've been reading up on ettiquette for hunting and suchlike, and one of the pointers is to ensure your horse has manners, specifically, ensuring it does not kick out at other horses.

Is it actually possible to teach a horse not to kick out at others? Or is the only way to deal with this behaviour to ensure that you take steps to avoid it happening in the first place, ie wearing a red ribbon in its tail, keeping to the back, verbally warning those around you, avoiding confined spaces with others around, not taking it out if it is in season/particularly grouchy/at all?!!

A few years back I was riding my mare at a Common Riding rideout (a Borders thing, bit like hunting but without a fox/runner). My mare can sometimes (and I mean only sometimes) be funny with other horses, so I dutifully wore the red ribbon in her tail, and warned other people, keeping to the back of the ride as well as I could, even though others were joining at different spots. Anyway a young boy (aged 4) who had previously been on a lead rein for the rideout the week before, proceded to push past me on the inside (we were riding past a stone wall on a road at the time) and my mare lashed out at him. She didn't actually touch him, but the boy's father was riding about two horses in front of me and gave me the biggest b******ing, really swearing at me.

I was really upset about this as I had warned the boy to pass on the outside (once I had realised what he was doing) where there was plenty of room, and my mare had also been perfectly behaved for every other rideout so far - I had even swapped horses on a different ride with a poor girl whose mare kept bucking her off down hills, to give her her confidence back (more fool me!). Anyway, I was so embarrassed that it had happened, so much so I didn't want to go to any others, but everyone round me said it wasn't my fault, that the boy should still have been on the leadrope etc and how rude the father had been. But was it my fault?

Anyway, back to my original question, is it possible to teach a horse not to kick?
 
This happened to me the first time I took my gelding hunting. Put the biggest red ribbon in I could find as he sometimes took a dislike to horses putting their nose up his bum. Kept to the back of the field, then lo and behold I went through a gateway turned right to get him out of the way and walked up the side of the field when a child on an out of controll pony cantered right into his backend. He lashed out, I ended up ontop of the barbed wire fence then got a mouthful from the mother. I was too shocked to reply, but spent the rest of the day mumbling what I should have said at the time "dont you dare speak to me like that, He had a red ribbon in his tail and your child obviously cant control her pony". If you do everything you can to warn people its not your fault that God forgot to give some people brains!
 
Hi

I dont think you can teach a horse not to kick BUT if I witness my horses kicking in the field I do shout Oi! to try to get them to stop - my own horses would stop but not other peoples.

Some horses are really tolerant and others arent. Some horses kick out and then look to see who/what is behind them, others give warnings first (ears back).

I think you had taken all the precautions (red ribbon etc)
 
Some people are just stupid, I had my youngster in a small ride, there wre four of us, a woman on a big grey kept running up behind me, in spite of me asking her to keep off, and waving my schooling whip at her horse and the instructor telling her to keep back, in the end all we did was teach him to buck when in company. Thanks, she knew he was a baby, and you can't do anything if people are idiots, you meet them on the Motorway, and in the Riding School.
Re taking young horses hunting, I keep them well out of the way, or stick with a companion, anyone out hunting has to be aware of protocols, it is up to peeps with regular kickers to keep them away from others.
 
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I don't want to hi-jack the thread but don't horses learn manners from each other? I know I've been advised to put young colts and geldings in with my (impeccably mannered!) stallion and I've assumed my youngsters will learn respect from the alpha mare in the herd.

When my GSD puppy bit me, I'd check her and relatiate (as her litter mates would do if she was still in with them), so she learnt that inflicting damage on me has consequences. She has learnt and even though (three years later) we have play fights, she is very concerned if she thinks she has hurt me. On the other hand, a horse that feels threatened through some unfortunately accident in the past might strike out automatically in defence.

Just some thoughts. I'm still pondering this one! It would be interesting to know more about the history of kickers. Do they kick in spite of being reared in a herd or because of it -- or neither, perhaps because of some situation they perceived as threatening??
 
You did everythIng right.

Why was a 4 year old allowed to run amock without supervision on a hunt?

I was 12 before I went solo on a hunt ( I know people go earlier) but even my even tempered pony was a loon, and I had very little control .

Don't let a single episode put you off
 
Kicking when ridden, in my book, is a completely different matter to when they are out in the field amongst horses being horses.

The only 'acceptable' reasons, as far as I am concerned, for a horse kicking another is if someone runs up their backside and stomps on their heels or someone/thing leaps out of cover behind them. (I saw a fox killed once when it jumped out of a hedge behind a horse and it got booted)

Lashing out at a horse, person or hound gets them walloped, instantly, and hard. It is not acceptable, and can, in most cases, be avoided by all the usual methods.

If a horse has a red ribbon on then it is merely a warning to others, not an excuse for it to kick. Hold your hand behind your back to warn people, stay at the back as much as possible (an unfortunate penalty of having a kicker, but better than being the cause of a damaged hound or someones broken leg, getting yelled at or sent home:() stick it's bum in the hedge, watch what it is telling you, and carry a stick ...some horses do habitually kick, sometimes there isn't much more you can do than let people know and try to avoid getting in a situation where it might happen.

In reply to the question about the boy, I think a young child in that situation isn't able to comprehend the enormity of the danger, or to have proper control of his pony, and it would be the parents fault, not the childs, or yours, you had done everything you could to avoid the situation you mention.

Shock (and guilt, and embarrassment) also causes people to open mouth before engaging brain, I'm not excusing the parent but I would probably have yelled at you too in his place, and been cursing myself roundly for being so stupid as to have let the situation happen in the first place, and probably then come and apologised to you.

Don't be put off going out.
 
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I forgot to say that even if my 5 year old was able to ride off the lead on a hunt, she would have no idea what offside ment, or even the danger envolved.

Well done enfys for you concise post, however I do disagree that a ribbon means you are still at fault x
 
Theoretically it is possible to teach a horse not to kick by correcting it every time you feel it going to do so. If it does manage to lash out then the reprimand should be hard and fast (whip behind the leg)
However, having hunted for many years on all sorts of horses, I would say that in the excitement of the chase sometimes the most mannered of horse will lash out.

A friend of mine had a wonderful cob she hunted very frequently. I would have said this horse was as safe as anything with hounds and other horses but, he did lash out when a child ran into the back of him on her pony. It wasn't even a really hard kick, short and sharp, but it broke the child's leg. I knew that horse well and had seen him in all sorts of situations and had never seen him kick at another horse.

I was always brought up that if you got kicked when riding, then it was your fault for being to close. Generally true but again I received a nasty kick out hunting when a horse came alongside me and lashed out.

If your horse wears a red ribbon then you should keep it to the back and if it does lash out then it should be punished.

The child was at fault in that his parent should have been alongside him at all times. Just remember that parents get very feisty when their child has been in a dangerous situation and survived it! (I nearly ran over a child who dived across the road in front of me and his mother gave him such a spanking - mostly it was her fear and relief that he was OK! Poor kid had been scared witless and then got a thrashing LOL)
 
Thanks for all your replies on this. I've never been hunting, so I'm not fully up on the protocol, but whatever, I don't want my horse to be given an excuse to kick or damage anything/one. I'll continue to use common sense!

Lashing out at a horse, person or hound gets them walloped, instantly, and hard.
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Incidentally, on that occasion I was carrying a whip, and yes she did get belted, and also a good kick from my heels. I never know if that will teach them anything in the heat of the moment but I can't think of anything more suitable to do.

Why was a 4 year old allowed to run amock without supervision on a hunt?
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I really have no idea. It wasn't a hunt, it was a Common Riding 'rideout', where all sorts of people in the town get on any horse they can find for a couple of times a year to mark out the borders of the town, whether they can ride or not! They last for about three hours with some pretty hard gallops over tough hilly country, I do Endurance and I've got to say the rides I've done are a breeze compared to these, they are pretty mental. I'm only guessing it is similar to hunting, although I'd like to think people who hunt can ride well! :D

The child in question was the son of one of the officials, and the rideout the week before he had been on a lead rein alongside his dad.

I also understand the father saying what he did in a panic, but he did not apologise. Thankfully this time the child wasn't hurt (although on a later ride he did fall off when his pony galloped through a bog and stumbled - and no, he wasn't on a lead rein again).
 
Orchardbeck said:
Ok, I've been reading up on ettiquette for hunting and suchlike, and one of the pointers is to ensure your horse has manners, specifically, ensuring it does not kick out at other horses.

Is it actually possible to teach a horse not to kick out at others?
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Kicking out at others horses, or worse still, at a hound, is one of the very worst things a horse can do in the hunting field. It is incredibly dangerous and can easily result in very serious injury to rider, horse or hound. If a horse has a habit of kicking it really should not be there in the first place.

To answer the question, a horse can only really be taught not to kick by making it associate kicking with unpleaseant consequences. If a horse does kick out then it must be disciplined for it, swiftly and in a way that makes it regret what it has done.
 
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Lashing out at a horse, person or hound gets them walloped, instantly, and hard.

Incidentally, on that occasion I was carrying a whip, and yes she did get belted, and also a good kick from my heels. I never know if that will teach them anything in the heat of the moment but I can't think of anything more suitable to do.

A wallop in the heat of the moment is the only way to punish a horse (or a dog, or any other animal).

Animals do not think and reason like humans do. If you're going to dish out a punishment (or "negative reinforcement" as behaviourists prefer to call it) it needs to be immediate, so that the animal associates the undesirable behaviour with the punishment.

Absolutely no point in beating the horse (or dog) a minute or 2 later, it then will have no comprehension of what is going on. It will not relate the beating to the behaviour you are punishing, it will just think you are randomly beating it and will instil fear, as you are effectively punishing it for behaving well.

Note: I am not an advocate of this kind of training method in general. I'm just trying to explain it. But there are some behaviours that are just unacceptable as they represent a danger to others, so fairly severe training methods are necessary.
 
I had a pony mare that was very dominant and would kick out at other ponies that got to close. I made sure the kids kept it away from the otherponies, and i would do as you did and warn others that may be drifting into her space that she would kick out. (She would also lunge at ponies and bite them, but this was a lot easier to control, in that, easier to be aware of her front end, and how close she was to other ponies as opposed to how close were to her rear end.)

A lot of people are oblivious as to how close their ponies are and leaving a bit of space between their ponies and other (esp. strange/unknown ponies). So this is why you need to speak out.

As far as training the pony, not a lot you can do, as ponies get more used to and comfortable in /with the environment, then you may find that they are less likely to kick. (I do think our pony improved over the years at Pony Club), but it was just her/her nature. There was not really any way I could make a change to what was just the way she was.
 
lauraandjack said:
Animals do not think and reason like humans do. If you're going to dish out a punishment (or "negative reinforcement" as behaviourists prefer to call it) it needs to be immediate, so that the animal associates the undesirable behaviour with the punishment.
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Behaviourists call punishment punishment; "negative reinforcement" has/is the opposite effect from punishment. Otherwise spot-on about timing!
 
Orchardbeck said:
I also understand the father saying what he did in a panic, but he did not apologise. Thankfully this time the child wasn't hurt (although on a later ride he did fall off when his pony galloped through a bog and stumbled - and no, he wasn't on a lead rein again).
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I love hearing about what the genuinely crackers people of the world get up to....
 
Interesting post. I want to hunt my 5 year old. He is however, unpredictable with his back legs when excited. I hack out in company and all know to stay clear. He does get smacked when he does it and is a lot better but I would not guarantee he would not do this. I have been hacking out with my friends dog to make sure he is used to and will not lash out at dogs. He was supposed to have been well hunted in Ireland but judging by the amount of eyeballing at my friends dog I don't think that was the case. Won't take my own puppy as she gets too close atm. The only saving grace is that my horse is not an out and out kicker - its more on the waving back legs sideways when overly excited than a full on boot so hope he can be trained/grow out of it.
 
Yes of course you can teach horses not to kick out - polo ponies all go through this as the natural inclination to kick has to be eliminated

Basically training and negative reinforcement

In other words, often if they even think about it a good hiding from an argi rider! It's tough, but you cannot have horses kicking in contact sport. Also in training you put the horses in a position where they would kick and reinforce not to.

In polocrosse if your horse kicks out you are off for the tournament, if it does it twice in the season its a ban from the sport. Its a serious and major offence and hence the only way to fix is brutal, as you cannot have one horse putting riders and others in the position of being injured due to poor training.
 
Jen_Cots:

That is very interesting, thank you for that answer. In fact all of the posts in response to my original question have been really useful, and the answer is very clear in that you can teach them not to kick, and punishment is more or less the only way to do it.

Thank you all very much for your time!:) x
 
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