Technical question about distance in a SJ double...

[kerilli]

Just musing & wanted some input please: I know most doubles (talking 1 stride, for the sake of the argument) are an 8 yard ish distance, but would you expect a double to be slightly shorter if it's an upright in, compared to an oxer in? I was talking to the SJ Course Designer at LD and asked him whether he thinks the rider should look for a slightly different spot at an upright compared to an oxer, and we moved on to the distance in doubles. His take on it is that you should land CLOSER after an oxer (because the top of the parabola is in the middle of the fence, which is further towards take-off than with an upright), and so he builds distances LONGER if it's an upright to an upright, for example... whereas I'd have expected that distance to be shorter. Does that make sense? Then I was watching a Vere & Clea Phillips training vid on HorseHero the other day and what they said matched what I have always thought - that the horse lands in further over an oxer, and that if you ride an upright to an oxer one way, and then the oxer to the upright, the 2nd way the distance will be shorter. That's my experience too...
Thoughts? Or have I just really confused everyone?!?! It seems that the practice doesn't match the theory, somehow... I think the parabola over an oxer is usually a slightly flatter arc than over an upright, so the horse lands further out. Is that wrong?

 

[Kokopelli]

Not hugely experienced but I would expect a shorter distance to an upright as well. Mainly because I need to collect canter much more and therefore take shorter strides.

 

[lucemoose]

I'm going with the course builder! You do land closer to the fence after an oxer, regarding the parabola of the jump.

 

[SmallSteps]

Hey, think some of your confusion lies in the definition of an oxer:

Upright:
Even parabola, highest point in middle of jump, landing and take-off evenly spaced.

Ascending spread:
Take off closer to first part, highest point over back rail, landing further in.

Spread with front and back rail at exactly same height (oxer):
Highest point between two rails, take off closer to front, land closer to back.

Bob the Builder Ellis used to draw neat little sketches for new course builders, I can draw something if you're really keen, or you can see it in the course builder's handbook (available to anyone through BS not just for course builders).

So for doubles:
ascending spread to upright, longest distance,
upright to upright, magic middle distance,
oxer (front and back rail same height) to upright, shorter distance
upright to spread, shorter distance etc.

Hope that helps!

 

[MegaBeast]

Interesting, I would have thought you'd land further out from an oxer...

"I think the parabola over an oxer is usually a slightly flatter arc than over an upright, so the horse lands further out." Exactly what I would have thought too.

I can see the theory of what the coursebuilder says but I think the reaility for most is as you say.

 

[MegaBeast]

Hey, think some of your confusion lies in the definition of an oxer:

Upright:
Even parabola, highest point in middle of jump, landing and take-off evenly spaced.

Ascending spread:
Take off closer to first part, highest point over back rail, landing further in.

Spread with front and back rail at exactly same height (oxer):
Highest point between two rails, take off closer to front, land closer to back.

Bob the Builder Ellis used to draw neat little sketches for new course builders, I can draw something if you're really keen, or you can see it in the course builder's handbook (available to anyone through BS not just for course builders).

So for doubles:
ascending spread to upright, longest distance,
upright to upright, magic middle distance,
oxer (front and back rail same height) to upright, shorter distance
upright to spread, shorter distance etc.

Hope that helps!

This makes total sense. Would it be fair to say that at the lower levels of eventing there are a lot of ascending spreads which makes us used to landing long, and also maybe means that even when the spreads become square both the horse and rider have become used to treating the back bar as the highest point of the jump?

 

[kerilli]

Hey, think some of your confusion lies in the definition of an oxer:

Upright:
Even parabola, highest point in middle of jump, landing and take-off evenly spaced.

Ascending spread:
Take off closer to first part, highest point over back rail, landing further in.

Spread with front and back rail at exactly same height (oxer):
Highest point between two rails, take off closer to front, land closer to back.

Bob the Builder Ellis used to draw neat little sketches for new course builders, I can draw something if you're really keen, or you can see it in the course builder's handbook (available to anyone through BS not just for course builders).

So for doubles:
ascending spread to upright, longest distance,
upright to upright, magic middle distance,
oxer (front and back rail same height) to upright, shorter distance
upright to spread, shorter distance etc.

Hope that helps!

No, I know exactly what an oxer is, a square parallel, that's what we were talking about. And your guide doesn't explain why he said he'd build the longest distance for an upright to an upright... ?!

Megabeast, that's a good point... BUT Vere is a v experienced SJer, and he said on the vid that the oxer to upright would ride shorter than the upright to oxer... *really confused now*

 

[MegaBeast]

BUT Vere is a v experienced SJer, and he said on the vid that the oxer to upright would ride shorter than the upright to oxer... *really confused now*

true!! I'll join you in the confused corner...

 

[kerilli]

Oh good, it gets lonely here...
I think it's interesting if even v experienced riders are practicising and planning their rides in 1 way, but (some?) course builders are building corses the other way, no?
I just cannot get my head around the 'upright to upright' being the LONGEST distance, no way! (I have a witness to that conversation too, and I was paying close attention as my bogglement advanced...!)

 

[EventingMum]

I was always taught that you took off and landed closer to an oxer. It was said that the actual distance covered by the parabola did not vary as much as people perceived between a vertical and an oxer therefore the fence itself took up more of the parabola distance for an oxer than a vertical though obviously this wouldn’t hold true for extremely wide fences/water jumps etc, therefore the longest distance would be vertical to vertical.

I’m not sure I’ve explained that clearly but I have an old book that illustrates this really well - Courses for Horses by Christopher Coldrey – I think it’s the first edition 1978 with a cream cover (the later editions have different photos). It has lots of diagrams showing how a horse jumps different types of fences and also photos of a horse jumping a vertical, a parallel and a triple bar and in each photo the arena boards are marked in 1’ (0.3m) lengths so take off and landing points are able to be clearly seen in relation to fences. This is also borne out in all the tables I have seen such as the BSJA Course Designing Notes (fairly old admittedly) and those used on coaching training courses (more recent) so I don't think things have change since I show jumped many moons ago!

 

[dieseldog]

Oxer in to upright should be built shorter than an upright in. It is easier for a horse to jump a double with a oxer going in, which is why you normally see more of them built this way at unaff/novice classes.

It is all to do with the centre of the fence. An oxer's mid point is halfway between the front and back and after your horse has reached its mid point it should start to land so will land shorter (relaltivey) over an oxer compared to an upright.

Does this drawing help?

 

[kerilli]

yes, i know, i understand the theory, but in practise generally I think a horse usually lands a bit further out from an oxer... probably because riders ride it more forward to clear the spread, does that make sense?
I'd shelved it in my mind, accepted I was wrong and the coursebuilder was correct, until I watched the horsehero vid and saw a far more experienced SJ & eventer than me saying what I've always thought...!

 

[Wiz]

Would think what Vere is refering to is that most would ride to a deeper spot to an upright and therefore with the same distance in a double it would ride longer if upright in as you will land closer to the upright than the oxer If you've hit that deeper spot to the upright? So not so much what the course builder deicdes but if both are on same distance you would need to ride forward more from the upright as will ride longer even if walks same

 

[Old Bat]

I think that the distance is measured from the highest point of the parabola in each case, in which case then yes, the distance from an oxer to an upright should be shorter than upright to upright, as the distance should be measured from the middle of the oxer, not the back pole. Or am I talking drivel?!

 

[MegaBeast]

yes, i know, i understand the theory, but in practise generally I think a horse usually lands a bit further out from an oxer... probably because riders ride it more forward to clear the spread, does that make sense?

Ditto this! I've always heard it said that an oxer will get the horse up in the air more over the jump (by that I mean making a good bascule not just going up and down) and therefore it follows that they will land further out, which is why the first jump of a course is nearly always an oxer as well as the first part of a double at the lower levels.

I guess an upright allows a great margin of error as the highest point of the jump isn't so critical (below a certain height) so it's "easier" to land short and therefore have more distance to make up in a double. Will be watching rounds and walking courses now paying particular attention to this...

 

[dieseldog]

I don't think they do, maybe that is the difference between eventers and show jumpers?

If you are landing further out when you are jumping an oxer you have a good chance of taking the front rail with you

 

[oldvic]

A horse will make a higher jump over an oxer (the middle of the parabola is between the 2 top rails so needs to be higher than the rails) and land closer to the back rail than an upright where the horse takes off further from the front rail and land further out. This is why upright to upright is longer. Remember the distance is measured from the back of the oxer which is when the horse is on the way down. Also event horses jumping small fences can be a little misleading as they tend to be flatter and land further out.

 

[kerilli]

Would think what Vere is refering to is that most would ride to a deeper spot to an upright and therefore with the same distance in a double it would ride longer if upright in as you will land closer to the upright than the oxer If you've hit that deeper spot to the upright? So not so much what the course builder deicdes but if both are on same distance you would need to ride forward more from the upright as will ride longer even if walks same

Yes, that makes sense. But it still doesn't quite explain why the coursebuilder would build the longest distance between two uprights... or does it?!?

Old Bat, I've only ever seen distances walked from back pole to next jump, never with the spread taken into account. ONLY exception is a bounce xc if the first part is a decent spread, imho...

 

[kerilli]

A horse will make a higher jump over an oxer (the middle of the parabola is between the 2 top rails so needs to be higher than the rails) and land closer to the back rail than an upright where the horse takes off further from the front rail and land further out. This is why upright to upright is longer. Remember the distance is measured from the back of the oxer which is when the horse is on the way down. Also event horses jumping small fences can be a little misleading as they tend to be flatter and land further out.

I follow the first bit... but I wouldn't have thought a horse necessarily takes off further from an upright. Hmm.
Yes, totally see about eventers jumping smaller jumps flatter and landing further out...
Lots more watching SJ to do now then.
Thanks everyone!

 

[SmallSteps]

No, I know exactly what an oxer is, a square parallel, that's what we were talking about. And your guide doesn't explain why he said he'd build the longest distance for an upright to an upright... ?!

Megabeast, that's a good point... BUT Vere is a v experienced SJer, and he said on the vid that the oxer to upright would ride shorter than the upright to oxer... *really confused now*

Right, but just because you know what an oxer is, doesn't mean people don't use the term "square oxer" (i.e. oxers sometimes aren't square). It particularly varies between counties and disciplines as to what we call an oxer.

Oxer to upright will rider shorter than upright to oxer, technically the take off and landing distances are fairly symmetrical for the oxer, but a horse will be comfortable standing off an upright (even further than the increased take off distance) and will bowl down to it, but shouldn't stand off an oxer (and will back off more with the solid fence), so you build short to an oxer (even more than the decreased take off distance).

Does that make any sense?

 

[PapaFrita]

Well, I used to think as you do and then someone explained it to me and it's as the other bloke said. Basically distance from take off to landing (flight) is the same over an upright or oxer, so you should aim to get a bit closer to an oxer/spread. My brain has summarised all the intricate explanation to that wee condensed version. But I may have completely misunderstood your question as I've just got in from a run and am oxygen deprived

ETS My oxygen deprived brain has vaguely remembered something very important and relevant about how the distances between fences are measured. I used to think it was centre of fence to centre of fence, but it's not, it's to/from closest side (I think) and THIS I think is where the confusion may be arising. I shall engage brain properly after a cold drink and shower

 

[MegaBeast]

so you should aim to get a bit closer to an oxer/spread.

This is the bit I'm struggling to get my head around as tend to stand off oxers and look for the deep spot to an upright.... definitely food for thought!

Thanks for raising an interesting quesiton K.

 

[oldvic]

Ditto this! I've always heard it said that an oxer will get the horse up in the air more over the jump (by that I mean making a good bascule not just going up and down) and therefore it follows that they will land further out, which is why the first jump of a course is nearly always an oxer as well as the first part of a double at the lower levels.

I guess an upright allows a great margin of error as the highest point of the jump isn't so critical (below a certain height) so it's "easier" to land short and therefore have more distance to make up in a double. Will be watching rounds and walking courses now paying particular attention to this...

Doubles at lower levels are normally ascending oxer in and upright out as, if the horse is a little green and spooky, there is less chance of the horse frightening/hurting itself if it gets in a muddle. The 1st fence is unlikely to be a square oxer.
Oxers do tend to get them more up in the air because they take off closer so have to jump more off their hocks to go up and get the width. They will go up steeper and land steeper.

 

[dieseldog]

Doubles at lower levels are normally ascending oxer in and upright out as, if the horse is a little green and spooky, there is less chance of the horse frightening/hurting itself if it gets in a muddle. The 1st fence is unlikely to be a square oxer.
Oxers do tend to get them more up in the air because they take off closer so have to jump more off their hocks to go up and get the width. They will go up steeper and land steeper.

Also if it all goes wrong it is easier for the horse to get out of trouble over an upright as the 2nd part than an oxer. And at unaff mixed classes it is easier on ponies to jump out over an upright.

 

[Old Bat]

Yes, that makes sense. But it still doesn't quite explain why the coursebuilder would build the longest distance between two uprights... or does it?!?

Old Bat, I've only ever seen distances walked from back pole to next jump, never with the spread taken into account. ONLY exception is a bounce xc if the first part is a decent spread, imho...

Totally agree with you in terms of walking distances, I was just trying to come up with a logical explanation why the oxer to upright distance should be a bit shorter

 

[oldvic]

I follow the first bit... but I wouldn't have thought a horse necessarily takes off further from an upright. Hmm.
Yes, totally see about eventers jumping smaller jumps flatter and landing further out...
Lots more watching SJ to do now then.
Thanks everyone!

The horse makes a flatter parabola over an upright so normally it is easier to stand further off it. With an oxer the back rail encourages the horse to look and lower it's head and neck so make a more rounded shape over the fence.

 

[MandyMoo]

hmm...I understand the theory of the oxer to upright being a shorter distance than an upright to an upright - those diagrams really helped !!

but I do agree to you in some extent K, I too seem to land further out on oxers - but maybe that is us silly riders riding oxers 'more' than uprights......so in practise we are landing further out in oxers due to us RIDERS, and if the horses were left alone then they should land closer and the distance should be shorter.

I also agree there is a big difference for eventers and SJers, and the courses they jump.


I'm still confused though....

anyone for just point and kick and see what happens?!

 

[kerilli]

Ha, yes, MandyMoo 'point and hope' will do for me... esp when the fences aren't too huge.
Must admit though that ime "a flatter parabola over an upright" tends to lead to it coming down, if it's a decent height. I have tended to try to get a teensy bit closer to an upright... hmmm.

So, I just rewatched the Clea and Vere video (HorseHero - "How to ride a related distance.") B
oth are VERY experienced and very good riders xc and sj, obviously.
The exercise is a related distance of 19 yards, upright to square oxer, then oxer to upright. (Then when the fences go up it is moved to 20 yards.)
I quote: Clea: "so that you should see that it is more difficult to shorten him for the distance when I jump the oxer in, because it makes him travel further in his jump"... "much more difficult (oxer to upright) "he gains in the air over the parallel".
and Vere: "he should eat more distance" (oxer to upright)
When distance is longer (for small horse) oxer to upright, V: "should be easier because the first part is going to pull me in further, being a spread fence, so I should be running a little bit more".
I think those comments confirm what I always thought...
Maybe the point is that you land more forward, not necessarily always more into the distance...?

 

[Saratoga]

When riding a distance I always find if it's an oxer in then it tends to ride shorter...I always thought it was because the horse made up more distance...I didn't realise it could be because the course builder has built it shorter...

But then saying that, when walking courses I have never noticed that doubles with uprights alone walk longer than any other double? In fact most courses I walk seem to be a standard 8yrds regardless of oxer or upright in?

 

[kerilli]

When riding a distance I always find if it's an oxer in then it tends to ride shorter...I always thought it was because the horse made up more distance...I didn't realise it could be because the course builder has built it shorter...

But then saying that, when walking courses I have never noticed that doubles with uprights alone walk longer than any other double? In fact most courses I walk seem to be a standard 8yrds regardless of oxer or upright in?

I think without getting a tape (or laser measurer) out it is very difficult tell by walking whether it is 10 or 20cms shorter, I definitely am not that accurate with my striding!

The course builder was saying that he definitely measures them slightly different according to what the fences are (square oxer or ascending spread or upright). His treble at LD was riding short-short, lots of v good jockeys had bits of it down, and some horses really had to work to clear it, esp the 3rd part. (I'm fairly sure the distance between b. and c. wasn't quite 8 yards!)