kirstykate
Well-Known Member
It shouldn't make a difference until you are jumping 1.20-1.30+
Technical question about distance in a SJ double...
- Thread starter kerilli
- Start date
Puffin
Well-Known Member
I think (from the OP) the course builder and Vere P are saying the same thing - just from different perspectives:
The course builder is talking about building a course.... you land slightly steeper and closer to the fence after an oxer so to get a level stride to the next fence (any fence) would be less of a distance than an upright where you would land (slightly) further out from the root of the fence.
Vere P said it rode longer from say oxer to upright (in this example) thats the same thing - if the distances were exactly the same from back of the oxer to the upright as from upright to upright then it would FEEL longer after the oxer, because you land steeper.
The other way of looking at it is rule of thumb is 4 yards per horse stride plus 2 for take off and 2 for landing. but you can adjust this - you take it from the peak of the parabola ie the middle of the oxer.
It only really makes a difference when the spreads get big - a 1.20 wide oxer would be 60cm (2/3 yard) from the middle to the foot of the fence, shortening the distance.
The course builder is talking about building a course.... you land slightly steeper and closer to the fence after an oxer so to get a level stride to the next fence (any fence) would be less of a distance than an upright where you would land (slightly) further out from the root of the fence.
Vere P said it rode longer from say oxer to upright (in this example) thats the same thing - if the distances were exactly the same from back of the oxer to the upright as from upright to upright then it would FEEL longer after the oxer, because you land steeper.
The other way of looking at it is rule of thumb is 4 yards per horse stride plus 2 for take off and 2 for landing. but you can adjust this - you take it from the peak of the parabola ie the middle of the oxer.
It only really makes a difference when the spreads get big - a 1.20 wide oxer would be 60cm (2/3 yard) from the middle to the foot of the fence, shortening the distance.
kerilli
Well-Known Member
Now I'm really confused! If you land steeper and therefore closer to the oxer then how on earth is it less of a distance to the next fence than if you land further out after jumping an upright?!?!?
Umm, Vere said the total opposite, no?! After jumping the oxer first, "he should eat more distance"... "the first part is going to pull me in further, being a spread fence, so I should be running a little bit more" - so it rides shorter because the horse has landed in further and/or is 'running' more to the next fence? (not 'running' on forehand btw, that isn't what he meant or showed).
But the fences in the demo on Horsehero are only smallish at first (about 1m, not wide) and even at that height they both mentioned the effect of jumping the oxer first compared to the upright.
I'd love to believe they were both saying the same thing (course builder and Vere, and Clea of course) but I can't see it... am I being really dense here?
kirstykate
Well-Known Member
Its to do with the take off point and where the highest point of horse is over an oxer, if u imagine over an upright the highest point of the horse is directly above it but over an oxer its about ¾ way over it but your take off point is closer. Any clearer?
kerilli
Well-Known Member
Yes, i see that kirstykate... maybe the course designer measures from the middle of the oxer... would that make more sense of it?
I'm really not trying to argue for the sake of it (although it sounds like it!) it just seems to me that there are opposite views here, somehow...?!?!? and both can't be right...
I'm really not trying to argue for the sake of it (although it sounds like it!) it just seems to me that there are opposite views here, somehow...?!?!? and both can't be right...
kirstykate
Well-Known Member
The course builder will measure from back pole of the oxer if thats the first fence .
Supanova
Well-Known Member
Now the way i see it is as follows:
If you take off at exactly the same place in front of an oxer and an upright, you will obviously land closer to the back of the oxer than the upright because the fence is wider, therefore the distance from the oxer to the next fence in the double will be longer hence the course builder reducing the distance.
In an ideal world you get your horse slightly closer to an oxer so it is easier for it to meet the back bar. If you get closer then you will land after the back bar at either the same distance you would land after the upright or maybe a bit further out.
I also think that the horse opens out over an oxer which may then produce a longer stride after its landed than the stride that is produced after an upright hence Vere's comments.
The course builder is building for a regular take off point and regular stride - if you don't get that (i.e. the stride has opened up becaue you've jumped an oxer) then the course catches you out as it is designed to do.
If you take off at exactly the same place in front of an oxer and an upright, you will obviously land closer to the back of the oxer than the upright because the fence is wider, therefore the distance from the oxer to the next fence in the double will be longer hence the course builder reducing the distance.
In an ideal world you get your horse slightly closer to an oxer so it is easier for it to meet the back bar. If you get closer then you will land after the back bar at either the same distance you would land after the upright or maybe a bit further out.
I also think that the horse opens out over an oxer which may then produce a longer stride after its landed than the stride that is produced after an upright hence Vere's comments.
The course builder is building for a regular take off point and regular stride - if you don't get that (i.e. the stride has opened up becaue you've jumped an oxer) then the course catches you out as it is designed to do.
kerilli
Well-Known Member
kirstykate, that's what i thought, thanks.
Supanova, ah, yes, that makes sense, I think I've finally finally got it. A lightbulb is flickering somewhere... thank you!
Supanova, ah, yes, that makes sense, I think I've finally finally got it. A lightbulb is flickering somewhere... thank you!
Mike007
Well-Known Member
The truth is that both answers are right
.It all depends on the height of the jump and the size of the horse/pony. What people forget is that up to 1 metre a horse barely has to do more than tuck up its legs to clear a fence and the easiest way for it to clear a smallish oxer is simply to use its forward speed and a little upward push.So the horse will not want to get in close to the fence,and distances need to be slightly longer. Once the height becomes significant ,he must do the exact opposite and power strongly upwards from much closer ,relying on forward momentum and the relatively longer period of suspension to carry him forwards enough,hence the distance needs to be shorter . Too long a stride distance to a big oxer and thehorse will not be able to get sufficient power into the lift,and if the jump is at a height approaching his limit, he cannot get away with using speed .A short stride distance to a small fence can also be a problem as the horse (facedwith what is more a trip hazard than a fence
) winds up tending to jump big anyway ,or he knocks it down and gets accused of not treating it with respect.I have always thought this a most unfair accusation. Small jumps confuse the hell out of big horses.anyway,this is just my opinion, I dont claim to be a showjumper but I do understand physics.
.It all depends on the height of the jump and the size of the horse/pony. What people forget is that up to 1 metre a horse barely has to do more than tuck up its legs to clear a fence and the easiest way for it to clear a smallish oxer is simply to use its forward speed and a little upward push.So the horse will not want to get in close to the fence,and distances need to be slightly longer. Once the height becomes significant ,he must do the exact opposite and power strongly upwards from much closer ,relying on forward momentum and the relatively longer period of suspension to carry him forwards enough,hence the distance needs to be shorter . Too long a stride distance to a big oxer and thehorse will not be able to get sufficient power into the lift,and if the jump is at a height approaching his limit, he cannot get away with using speed .A short stride distance to a small fence can also be a problem as the horse (facedwith what is more a trip hazard than a fence) winds up tending to jump big anyway ,or he knocks it down and gets accused of not treating it with respect.I have always thought this a most unfair accusation. Small jumps confuse the hell out of big horses.anyway,this is just my opinion, I dont claim to be a showjumper but I do understand physics.
kerilli
Well-Known Member
Good points Mike, thanks, that helps too, and explains the apparent contradiction.
Hope you're feeling a bit better btw, how's the arm/shoulder? Or does this deserve a new thread...?
Hope you're feeling a bit better btw, how's the arm/shoulder? Or does this deserve a new thread...?
Mike007
Well-Known Member
Might need a new thread forthat one. But here is a link that might be of interest ,somegood pictures of good horses jumping big ,plus one very cute foal. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODxZ5xedkX4