Ted Update (severe hindgut acidosis)

stilltrying

stilltrying

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Its been a while since I posted an update on Teddy and unfortunately its not the best news.

He was treated over the summer, initially to calm his gut, before the reintroduction of the right bacteria. He certainly made improvements, started to pick up a bit of condition and was brought back into light work. However he still wasn’t 100%. He was still on the poor side and rather ‘tight’ looking over his back end. Once we we took him in the school we realised he was stepping slightly short on his right hind, all connected to his gut apparently, which was an indication that he was still sore.

Once his protocol finished the little tell tale signs that he was unhappy started creeping back, and he started getting nasty again. We stopped riding him, his poo was re-tested and while we waited for the results he went back on the equishure, which seemed to improve things again slightly.

The tests came back last week and unfortunately show that he is still very acidic with too much of the wrong bacteria. The vet has said that of all the horses she has treated, he is the one that has shown the least improvement. Chloe (his owner) has had a long chat with the vet and they have agreed to trial one more course of treatment. I believe it will be another 10 x weeks treatment to try and stabilise before attempting to repopulate his gut with the right bacteria. He will be assessed after the 10 weeks and if he hasn’t stabilised enough then it will be time to say goodbye.

Trying to be positive but have to say I'm now fearing the worst. Hopefully i will be proved wrong!
 
So sorry to hear this.....is it worth trying the equishure again? I am about to try it again with Stanley. Didn't think it helped initially but looking back think he was better whilst on it.

Sorry eta to say I see you are trying equishure again!
 
kinnygirl1 said:
So sorry to hear this.....is it worth trying the equishure again? I am about to try it again with Stanley. Didn't think it helped initially but looking back think he was better whilst on it.

Sorry eta to say I see you are trying equishure again!
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Haha, yes he is back on the equishure at the moment. But to be honest whilst it did make a big improvement he still wasnt 100% on it. I believe some people use it long term as a maintenance, but its not enough for Ted.
 
I could be talking complete rubbish here, but maybe a few points to think about!

A few people on here seem to have recommended the Alltech lifeforce supplement for horses with hind gut problems. Personally myself, I found a supplement called Aquacid really helped my ulcer horse.

What's he being fed on currently?

And as a total long shot - have you considered having a "bio-energetic hair test" done on him? They test a snip of hair then give you a "remedy" that will help to solve the horses problems. Could be worth a go, although I'm sure some people will poo-poo the idea!
 
wench said:
I could be talking complete rubbish here, but maybe a few points to think about!

A few people on here seem to have recommended the Alltech lifeforce supplement for horses with hind gut problems. Personally myself, I found a supplement called Aquacid really helped my ulcer horse.

What's he being fed on currently?

And as a total long shot - have you considered having a "bio-energetic hair test" done on him? They test a snip of hair then give you a "remedy" that will help to solve the horses problems. Could be worth a go, although I'm sure some people will poo-poo the idea!
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Thanks will pass on! : )

He is being fed chopped hay chaff (literally nothing other than dried chopped hay), soaked alfalfa nuts and micronised linseed (along with equishure).

I think the vet has said that he is the worse case she has seen, which is not terribly encouraging, but i suppose gives some reason as to why the first lot of treatment helped but didn't completely fix the problem.
 
peh1980 said:
Have you tried Gastroplus? It is very expensive but seems to get excellent recommendations. Decided against myself due to the cost, though.
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Hi, no not tried gastroplus. Does that treat stomach ulcers or hindgut? The gastroguard cleared his stomach ulcers, but did nothing for the hindgut. And given how his condition and state of mind got progressively worse, i'm not sure the ulcers were causing him that much grief, least not as much as the hindgut anyway?
 
Stilltrying - I'm in Kent (near Sevenoaks) so maybe close to you?

I have a TB that had/has HGA - in all honesty it has taken the best part of 2 years to get him completely right, and I still have to keep his management 100% spot on or things go backwards again. We never had a formal diagnosis, but it was the last thing, suggested by my vet, to try as despite having grade 4 ulcers that cleared, he was as vile as he was the day he started his GG treatment. He also suffered from laminitis, and was by all accounts, the kind of horse that shouldn't get it! There was simply no other reason for the lami, until my vet had a light bulb moment...

Mine cannot have anything with Alfalfa in.... at all. Really upsets him.

Does your boy get grass? I wasn't sure from your post if he does.....Grass is a huge issue for me, and I have to carefully manage what he has access to graze....

We didn't do anything like repopulating the gut with bacteria. I'm interested as to how you do this, since the stomach environment is too acidic for the flora of the hindgut. Research I've read suggests pre or pro biotics (I always get the 2 mixed up!) are a bit of a waste of time for this reason.

I used equishure on mine, for months to start with. I then started using a combination of veg oil and bicarb and have managed him really well on this. I have charcoal in my store, just in case we have an escape (into the wrong field…), but also feed fenugreek, turmeric, as well as a vit/min supplement – I’ve tried to optimize everything. But ultimately, it took months to settle down and get to a point where we had things under reasonable control. Even this time last year, we had a massive flair up – Autumn is the worst time of year IMO, and when I struggle most with mine. I've read other research that oil is great for HGA horses, you can add the calories you need but without the bulk. It's been 2 years pretty much exactly now, and everyone that sees him always comments on how fab he looks, and how different to what he looked like before.
 
Alsxx what do you feed B now?

Stilltrying I'm really sorry to hear its not getting better. I have one who has just been diagnosed and management is proving so difficult. I hope the next update is more positive.
 
Scarlett - hard feed B gets grass nuts and soaked oats, and then his various powders, inc bicarb, and oil. Forage, he has meadow haylage (tonnes of it lol!). :-)
 
Hi aslxx - yes we are in Kent, nr Folkestone, so not too far away (although i work in t/wells). Thanks for sharing, sounds very similar actually. Ted has had all manner of foot issues, which ordinarily he shouldn't have had, especially given the care and attention that Chlo gives his diet and his feet. He is still extremely footy.

Our local vet was baffled, especially after the ulcers went. Then Chloe found our current vet who specialises in problem cases such as these. If you want more info on the treatment plan pm me, although i've only got the prev one, still waiting on the latest one.

In terms of grazing, he lived out in the summer but has had his grazing restricted, was been penned off in a small area within the field with adlib hay until the others had eaten it all down, then was only let out at night and back in during the day. He is now stabled at night and out during the day. Given the injuries / state of rugs i think they spend the day playing at the moment rather than eating!

Really positive to hear that you are managing though. He has been back on the equishure for about 8 weeks now i think and appears happy enough in himself, but still not right you know? Still looks like someone has vacuum packed his back end!
 
Could I please ask - without wishing to hijack the thread!! - alsxx, the soaked oats - are they beneficial or just for energy? - have been trying to figure this out as I know oat flour is meant to help?
 
Haha yep I get the vacuum packed analogy! Been there!! :-) if I'm honest it probably wasn't until January of this year that mine actually started properly filling out and putting muscle on; original diagnosis sep/oct 2012! In March 2013 my boy had major surgery for guttural pouch mycosis, so you could argue that this was affecting him up until that point. But even so, from then onwards that still 9 months until he actually started beefing up.

I always know when mine is not right as he starts walking round like he has peed his pants; scuttling along with his bum tucked under him! So bloody hard to get muscle on them in the right place if they walk like that!!!!

Would be interested in the treatment plan if you don't mind sharing. I'm really interested in all of this, I think it's definitely an area where a lot more could be learnt. I wasted a lot of money on a lameness work up that resulted in no conclusive diagnosis for the right hind - absolutely sure it was his guts now!

Re oats - I feed them only as I went back to basics, to try and feed the most basic diet I could. Obviously they are a good source of fibre though, but don't really jazz him up in terms of energy levels (I think that's a bit of a myth really). I soak them as they seem more palatable - they wet the nuts but he also poos less out when they are soaked!! ;-)
 
alsxx said:
Haha yep I get the vacuum packed analogy! Been there!! :-) if I'm honest it probably wasn't until January of this year that mine actually started properly filling out and putting muscle on; original diagnosis sep/oct 2012! In March 2013 my boy had major surgery for guttural pouch mycosis, so you could argue that this was affecting him up until that point. But even so, from then onwards that still 9 months until he actually started beefing up.

I always know when mine is not right as he starts walking round like he has peed his pants; scuttling along with his bum tucked under him! So bloody hard to get muscle on them in the right place if they walk like that!!!!

Would be interested in the treatment plan if you don't mind sharing. I'm really interested in all of this, I think it's definitely an area where a lot more could be learnt. I wasted a lot of money on a lameness work up that resulted in no conclusive diagnosis for the right hind - absolutely sure it was his guts now!

Re oats - I feed them only as I went back to basics, to try and feed the most basic diet I could. Obviously they are a good source of fibre though, but don't really jazz him up in terms of energy levels (I think that's a bit of a myth really). I soak them as they seem more palatable - they wet the nuts but he also poos less out when they are soaked!! ;-)
Click to expand...

Yes! I know the scuttling...which seems 100 times worse going downhill. That is a long recovery, but encouraging nonetheless. Yes this has been an extremely costly affair for Chlo - insurance is now maxed out, with the largest chunk going on a bonescan, which of course showed naff all. That is one of the reasons why I keep posting on here, as even the vets seem to know very little about it.

If you pm me your email address i'll send over some more info : )
 
stilltrying said:
.which seems 100 times worse going downhill.
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that is the phrase that says it all. I started Ro and Rupert on equishure due to alsyxx's comments on another forum and it has taken 2 years to get to where I am now. Rupert started to have a relapse last Oct. but I was ready for him. No idea what it is about Oct.

I tried removing alfalfa but not effect and removing linseed, again no effect. Every one of these horses seems to have different dietary needs.

can you define Footy? Ours are barefoot and we found Rupert really did a lot better when we increased the salt. It didn't bother Rowan but Rupert noticed improved He needed double the salt and then bicarb (sodium) on top and the improvement was noticable.

Is he footy due to feet ie flaring, no concavity, stretched WL or are his really good in this respect and he is footy when he shouldn't be. What foot problems does he have?

There is a lot of mental baggage as a result of this. Neither were happy about me grooming their front legs (no idea why) both unhappy about picking up hinds and it took a lot of time for them to accept grooming. I accept them biting me but when I continue to work through it they give in and then start to relax and yawn. A lot of the nasty behaviour is a front that they have learnt to protect themselves. That is not helpful as you don't really know if they are just doing it regardless or if they really have a problem at that time. Neither seem to like massage but they like firm strokes with a body brush (no banging) and this seems to mesmerise them and relax them.
Charcoal in the eve when they come off the grass for the night to deal with any bloating effects of the grass especially at this time of the year.

Sorry waffling! I really feel for Chloe. THis seems to be an individual thing with every horse different and I'm not sure there is a stock answer for vets to give.
 
I haven't read all of your replies, but may I ask how the horse was treated to reestablish good bacteria?
My WB had low grade ulcers but one in the pyloric region and he was treated with gastrogard. Following that treatment he was put on a 6 week regime of green clay (with a 2 week break in the middle) and chlorella for the whole 6 weeks (no break) to reestablish the good hind gut bacteria killed off, because the GG allows undigested food through the hind gut by the way it works killing off the good bacteria in 24 hrs.
This regime was prescribed by a holistic vet at Newmarket and it worked for my horse. He showed signs of stress after the GG treatment and she instantly recognised this was symptomatic of the hind gut bacteria problem.
 
My horse had some hindgut problems caused by over fertilised and over managed grazing, however she was never nasty or difficult due to it. I would say the best thing you can do is get the horse onto grazing that is scrubby and rough and not fertilised.

That said, I know how difficult that can be when you are on livery.
 
I don't know if you have tried but have you tried soaking his hay in hot water or steaming it? I've recently started doing this with my horse (had ulcers stomach n hind gut treated with GG) I've not been able to completely clear the hind gut ones but since using hot water to soak the hay his poo is no longer water but perfect 'pony' poo!
Took 48 hours to see a slight difference but after one week he seemed a lot happier.
Could be worth a try as it's pretty low cost.
 
Can I suggest you have a look at Thunderbrooks base mix and give Dr Debbie a call - excellent feed and a v knowledgeable nutritionist - its based on micronised linseed.

[ur]lhttp://thunderbrook.co.uk[/url]
 
paddy555 said:
that is the phrase that says it all. I started Ro and Rupert on equishure due to alsyxx's comments on another forum and it has taken 2 years to get to where I am now. Rupert started to have a relapse last Oct. but I was ready for him. No idea what it is about Oct.

I tried removing alfalfa but not effect and removing linseed, again no effect. Every one of these horses seems to have different dietary needs.

can you define Footy? Ours are barefoot and we found Rupert really did a lot better when we increased the salt. It didn't bother Rowan but Rupert noticed improved He needed double the salt and then bicarb (sodium) on top and the improvement was noticable.

Is he footy due to feet ie flaring, no concavity, stretched WL or are his really good in this respect and he is footy when he shouldn't be. What foot problems does he have?

There is a lot of mental baggage as a result of this. Neither were happy about me grooming their front legs (no idea why) both unhappy about picking up hinds and it took a lot of time for them to accept grooming. I accept them biting me but when I continue to work through it they give in and then start to relax and yawn. A lot of the nasty behaviour is a front that they have learnt to protect themselves. That is not helpful as you don't really know if they are just doing it regardless or if they really have a problem at that time. Neither seem to like massage but they like firm strokes with a body brush (no banging) and this seems to mesmerise them and relax them.
Charcoal in the eve when they come off the grass for the night to deal with any bloating effects of the grass especially at this time of the year.

Sorry waffling! I really feel for Chloe. THis seems to be an individual thing with every horse different and I'm not sure there is a stock answer for vets to give.
Click to expand...

Thanks so much, waffling is great! Have shared with Chloe (she's v grateful for all the input!)

In terms of his footiness, I asked chloe for an update and she has said he has a stretched white line, with thrush in his front feet, although i'd say he has pretty good concavity. The footiness is most noticeable walking down the path to our field, it is a relatively steep, stony track. My horse is also barefoot and he does gravitate towards the edges of the path where the leaves have fallen, but he maintains a relaxed frame as he lollops down the hill. Ted on the other hand takes lots of tiny little steps and rushes down almost out of control, and the other day bashed his head on some overhanging branches as he was so desperate not to walk on the stones. I wonder if it is gradient as well as the ground, as even walking downhill on flat tarmac seems harder for him than walking along the flat. So could be combination of foot pain and balancing himself is painful too.

Interesting that there are issues with the time of the year. I totally get that grass doesn't help, however last winter when he was at his worst, our paddock got trashed with all the wet weather so his grass intake would have been next to nothing for a couple of months.

I know what you mean about the grumpiness and the expectation of pain. Chloe is paranoid for obvious reasons, but I do think sometimes he just reacts with a teeth grind without anything actually bothering him, as after he will just stand with happy ears a moment later even if you touch him.
 
YasandCrystal said:
I haven't read all of your replies, but may I ask how the horse was treated to reestablish good bacteria?
My WB had low grade ulcers but one in the pyloric region and he was treated with gastrogard. Following that treatment he was put on a 6 week regime of green clay (with a 2 week break in the middle) and chlorella for the whole 6 weeks (no break) to reestablish the good hind gut bacteria killed off, because the GG allows undigested food through the hind gut by the way it works killing off the good bacteria in 24 hrs.
This regime was prescribed by a holistic vet at Newmarket and it worked for my horse. He showed signs of stress after the GG treatment and she instantly recognised this was symptomatic of the hind gut bacteria problem.
Click to expand...

Hi - I think our horse is being treated by the same vet as you, given the location and the prescription. Glad to hear it worked for you. : ) He has made some progress, just not enough, but he is by all accounts a very bad case!
 
I can't speak highly enough that Gastro Plus works and it deals with the entire gastric system not only with ulcers but anything to do with gastric issues. One month's dosing and I had my horse back where stopping using the medication the problem came back. Before it gets to the stage of pts it's worth giving Equine Science a call as they talk to you personally and get involved and I'm over the moon with this product as I say.
 
ceylon said:
I can't speak highly enough that Gastro Plus works and it deals with the entire gastric system not only with ulcers but anything to do with gastric issues. One month's dosing and I had my horse back where stopping using the medication the problem came back. Before it gets to the stage of pts it's worth giving Equine Science a call as they talk to you personally and get involved and I'm over the moon with this product as I say.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the recommendation, and thats not the first one i've had for GP, i will definitely pass on : )
 
TigerTail said:
Can I suggest you have a look at Thunderbrooks base mix and give Dr Debbie a call - excellent feed and a v knowledgeable nutritionist - its based on micronised linseed.

[ur]lhttp://thunderbrook.co.uk[/url]
Click to expand...

Definitely try this stuff - it has sorted my boy out and after years of frustration I now have my lovely happy horse back
 
Another with a massive recommendation for Gastroplus-sorted my boy out within a couple of weeks and has not looked back-fantastic products and def worth having a chat with Deborah at Equine Science.
 
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