Teeth grinding and girthiness - could it be ulcers?

PolarSkye

PolarSkye

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We've had Kali since January of last year - so a year and 9 months. When we first bought him, he wasn't at all girthy or touchy about being groomed anywhere - and he only ground his teeth when he found his work stressful.

We bought him a new saddle (b/c his old one didn't fit - he bucked me off when I got on!) - had it professionally fitted and he has had his back done regularly. We had four very stressful months at a yard he hated and the teeth grinding seemed to get worse and then he began to get girthy. I had his saddle readjusted - I have since changed his girth too - and now he is very touchy about being brushed right along the girth line and between his front legs, is still really girthy (he bit me the other day) and grinds his teeth pretty much constantly under saddle. He does also grind his teeth when he's stressed or unhappy in his stable - i.e., if it's feed time and it's not coming fast enough or when he's anxious to go out.

I know you guys aren't vets (well, some of you might be - I don't know!), but do you think it's worth getting him scoped for ulcers?

He's well in himself - good condition, lovely coat (although his feet are worse than they have ever been) . . . not prone to any illnesses and happy in every other way . . .

Thanks in advance.

P
 
I am no vet but I have a horse who had ulcers albeit mild ones and he was very very touchy around the girth area - he would bite strike you name it; he is a very sensitive horse. He was scoped and went on Gastrogard and recently on herbal products to restore his gut fauna. He now lives out 24/7 and he has no sugar or cereal in his diet and always adlib forage available to him.
You can try to see if it is ulcers by buying Rantacidine tablets (chemists or cheap on ebay) and giving him 7 tablets in morning feed and a chaff feed say 15 minutes before going to tack up and see if there is a difference - it should show a diff in 2 days. Or you can try adding a cupful of limestone flour to the feed - again this is only to maybe show that it could be ulcers via an improvement. It will NOT cure them in any way. It's just like taking Gaviscon I suppose is the best comparison.
Ulcers can be a very serious complaint - I am not suggesting yours has these but horses can get bleeding ulcers which can then be incurable. They need to be taken seriously.

Good Luck!
 
YasandCrystal said:
I am no vet but I have a horse who had ulcers albeit mild ones and he was very very touchy around the girth area - he would bite strike you name it; he is a very sensitive horse. He was scoped and went on Gastrogard and recently on herbal products to restore his gut fauna. He now lives out 24/7 and he has no sugar or cereal in his diet and always adlib forage available to him.
You can try to see if it is ulcers by buying Rantacidine tablets (chemists or cheap on ebay) and giving him 7 tablets in morning feed and a chaff feed say 15 minutes before going to tack up and see if there is a difference - it should show a diff in 2 days. Or you can try adding a cupful of limestone flour to the feed - again this is only to maybe show that it could be ulcers via an improvement. It will NOT cure them in any way. It's just like taking Gaviscon I suppose is the best comparison.
Ulcers can be a very serious complaint - I am not suggesting yours has these but horses can get bleeding ulcers which can then be incurable. They need to be taken seriously.

Good Luck!
Click to expand...

Many thanks for this. I will try limestone flour first and see if that makes a diffeence - if it does I'll get him scoped. I hate to think of him being unhappy/in pain like that :(.

If it's not ulcers, what else could cause this behaviour? He doesn't try and strike or bite in any other circumstance . . . I can do anything with him . . . he also doesn't kick and isn't nasty in any other way (actually he's a very affectionate horse) . . . what else could it be?

P
 
Yes, I think it would be worth scoping him. You hae already recognised that he's been stressed over a period of time, and his behaviour is still telling you that.

I'd get him scoped, get him moved to yard he was more chilled out at and take off some of the pressure in your ridden work (if you can). With regard to management, I'd have him living out, in a small settled group if possible.

I think that some horses find 'routine' stressfull; if they are anticipating turning out, bringing in, feeds etc it all adds to their stress levels. if you are bringing in overnight, I'd look at not giving a small bucket feed which is exciting, quickly consumed and readily anticipated; and trying a really large forage feed which they 'graze' at overnight, along the lines of a 'Simple Systems' type diet.

I'm sure you already know as you're asking about ulcers, but you really need to cut out all cereals, and go low sugar and starch and very high fibre with his diet. Make sure he has constant access to forage :)

Some info lifted from another site;

According to the latest veterinarian studies, “Almost 60% of performance horses have ulcers. Up to 57% of foals have stomach ulcers, particularly during the first several months of life. Most of these horses and foals show no signs of illness.” (See www.horseadvice.com; “Gastric Ulcers in Horses,” by Robert N. Oglesby, DVM.) (“USDF Connections, Oct. 2003.)

"New research shows that stomach ulcers can occur within five days in horses exposed to recreational show conditions and activities. The study, reported in the September 1, 2005 issue of the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association (JAVMA) , indicated that seven out of 10 horses developed ulcers when exposed to normal situations related to weekend show travel. These included transportation, twice daily feeding, light exercise and stall confinement. Researchers and veterinarians have historically associated stomach ulcers with high-performance or racehorses. This new study shows just how easily horses can develop stomach ulcers in association with less-strenuous, recreational activities such as weekend horseshows or events. “The research demonstrated that conditions representing typical activities of the recreationally used horse are associated with an increased incidence of gastric ulcers within a short time period,” said Dr. Scott McClure, DVM, PhD, author of the study. “The findings reported should increase awareness that gastric ulcers affect a greater population of horses than previously thought.” The study included a total of 20 horses determined to be ulcer-free. Ten of the horses were exposed to conditions over the next five days that simulated a weekend horse show. This included four hours of transport to a secondary facility, three days of light training (thirty minutes of lunging twice per day), twice daily feeding, stall confinement and a four-hour trip back to the home facility. The other ten horses remained together in a paddock at the home location as a control group. All 20 horses underwent a second endoscopy on day five. Results showed that seven out of ten horses transported off-site had developed stomach ulcers within only five days. Furthermore, two of the control horses developed ulcers, possibly due to the change in herd dynamics after the first group was transported away. The research highlights just how easily horses can get stomach ulcers and the opportunity for proactive prevention. Ulcers can be prevented with a maintenance dose of Omeprazole.

"There is a growing body of evidence to suggest that the more you can mimic the almost continuous natural grazing behavior of horses in the wild, the better," said study co-author Becky Hothersall, PhD, a researcher studying Equine Learning and Cognition at the University's School of Veterinary Science. The authors found horses fed more hay displayed generally quieter behavior, and fewer stereotypic behaviors (such as cribbing or weaving), compared to horses fed infrequent and large high-starch meals. "More time spent eating less nutrient-rich food is likely to fulfill your horse's instincts to forage, and may reduce digestive problems or blood sugar fluctuations associated with large meals," Hothersall said. The study noted that after a horse ingests a large, starchy meal, "the higher proportion of dry matter in the stomach contents slows the mixing of feed and gastric juice ... and can result in discomfort and even gastric colic."
 
air78 said:
Yes, I think it would be worth scoping him. You hae already recognised that he's been stressed over a period of time, and his behaviour is still telling you that.

I'd get him scoped, get him moved to yard he was more chilled out at and take off some of the pressure in your ridden work (if you can). With regard to management, I'd have him living out, in a small settled group if possible.

I think that some horses find 'routine' stressfull; if they are anticipating turning out, bringing in, feeds etc it all adds to their stress levels. if you are bringing in overnight, I'd look at not giving a small bucket feed which is exciting, quickly consumed and readily anticipated; and trying a really large forage feed which they 'graze' at overnight, along the lines of a 'Simple Systems' type diet.

I'm sure you already know as you're asking about ulcers, but you really need to cut out all cereals, and go low sugar and starch and very high fibre with his diet. Make sure he has constant access to forage :)

Some info lifted from another site;

According to the latest veterinarian studies, “Almost 60% of performance horses have ulcers. Up to 57% of foals have stomach ulcers, particularly during the first several months of life. Most of these horses and foals show no signs of illness.” (See www.horseadvice.com; “Gastric Ulcers in Horses,” by Robert N. Oglesby, DVM.) (“USDF Connections, Oct. 2003.)

"New research shows that stomach ulcers can occur within five days in horses exposed to recreational show conditions and activities. The study, reported in the September 1, 2005 issue of the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association (JAVMA) , indicated that seven out of 10 horses developed ulcers when exposed to normal situations related to weekend show travel. These included transportation, twice daily feeding, light exercise and stall confinement. Researchers and veterinarians have historically associated stomach ulcers with high-performance or racehorses. This new study shows just how easily horses can develop stomach ulcers in association with less-strenuous, recreational activities such as weekend horseshows or events. “The research demonstrated that conditions representing typical activities of the recreationally used horse are associated with an increased incidence of gastric ulcers within a short time period,” said Dr. Scott McClure, DVM, PhD, author of the study. “The findings reported should increase awareness that gastric ulcers affect a greater population of horses than previously thought.” The study included a total of 20 horses determined to be ulcer-free. Ten of the horses were exposed to conditions over the next five days that simulated a weekend horse show. This included four hours of transport to a secondary facility, three days of light training (thirty minutes of lunging twice per day), twice daily feeding, stall confinement and a four-hour trip back to the home facility. The other ten horses remained together in a paddock at the home location as a control group. All 20 horses underwent a second endoscopy on day five. Results showed that seven out of ten horses transported off-site had developed stomach ulcers within only five days. Furthermore, two of the control horses developed ulcers, possibly due to the change in herd dynamics after the first group was transported away. The research highlights just how easily horses can get stomach ulcers and the opportunity for proactive prevention. Ulcers can be prevented with a maintenance dose of Omeprazole.

"There is a growing body of evidence to suggest that the more you can mimic the almost continuous natural grazing behavior of horses in the wild, the better," said study co-author Becky Hothersall, PhD, a researcher studying Equine Learning and Cognition at the University's School of Veterinary Science. The authors found horses fed more hay displayed generally quieter behavior, and fewer stereotypic behaviors (such as cribbing or weaving), compared to horses fed infrequent and large high-starch meals. "More time spent eating less nutrient-rich food is likely to fulfill your horse's instincts to forage, and may reduce digestive problems or blood sugar fluctuations associated with large meals," Hothersall said. The study noted that after a horse ingests a large, starchy meal, "the higher proportion of dry matter in the stomach contents slows the mixing of feed and gastric juice ... and can result in discomfort and even gastric colic."
Click to expand...

Thanks for this. We moved him two months ago and he is much more settled now - so much so that we're considering taking him off calming supplements. He goes out for about 16 hours (overnight and in a herd) and is much calmer in his stable - unless he thinks he cottons on that it's either dinner time (he gets breakfast when he comes in) or time to go out. It's rare that he isn't one of the first out, so any stress/teeth grinding associated with that is rare, but occasionally (Friday, for example, when he was in longer waiting for the farrier) it's necessary. He is never alone - either in or out - and I could certainly talk to YO about him having daytime turnout too - only coming in to be ridden/get his evening hard feed.

You're right about reassessing his feed . . . will take a look at that. I am strict about sugar because it upsets him in general, but I should take another look at the starch content of what he is getting.

His ridden work isn't too taxing (particularly when I ride him) and it's varied - he hacks, jumps, works on the flat and goes on the gallop track every week . . . but to be fair to him he has had alot of mental work to do in the past 6-8 months and while he has improved hugely, it may have fried his little brain a tad. I'll have a chat with my trainer (who schools him 3x/week) about maybe staying out of the dressage arena for a while and just jumping and hacking - both of which he lurves.

And, yes, will talk to yard vet about having him scoped. There has to be a reason why he is a) so sensitive about that part of his body; and b) the teeth grinding has gotten worse (oh, he had his teeth done about two weeks ago).

P
 
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