Tell me about draw reins

[Mince Pie]

I used draw reins very short term with one horse.
She had been ridden by someone who caught he mouth regually in transitions, and added to that, she was in a very thin wire mouth bit

So first I put her in a waterford, but she very defensivly and understandably threw her head in transitions, nearly hitting you in the face. I used it fairly loosely, so it would on come into contact when her head went high, and within two weeks she understood, and they were discarded.

I am not one for artificial aids, dont even like flash nosebands much, but I would say never say never but very very cautiously, and selectivly, and short term

This is the same reason I use them on my lad sometimes. I hunt him a handful of times a season, but because he loves it so much he can throw his head up and evade in downwards transitions. This can spill over into his schooling sometimes so I put them on to remind him how to school properly. I also lunge in them

 

[Pale Rider]

competitiondiva

Quote de tallyho! Personally, I think they are for lazy people who can't ride properly .

In that case half the professional riders I've ever known can't ride properly!!!! mmmmmm


Only half.

 

[competitiondiva]

competitiondiva

Quote de tallyho! Personally, I think they are for lazy people who can't ride properly .

In that case half the professional riders I've ever known can't ride properly!!!! mmmmmm


Only half.

I won't get into the debate of their use, was just saying that I know of a lot of professional riders who use them and no way on earth would I accuse any of them of not being able to ride properly....

 

[tallyho!]

In that case half the professional riders I've ever known can't ride properly!!!! mmmmmm

Maybe so...

 

[tallyho!]

I won't get into the debate of their use, was just saying that I know of a lot of professional riders who use them and no way on earth would I accuse any of them of not being able to ride properly....

According to which school of equestrianism exactly??

Sitting on a horse and collecting rosettes does not make you a good rider. Being Anky van Grunsven does not make you a good rider... Good riding is not measured by your success and how many trophies or young horses you have at each level...

That does not impress me much and is not something I look up to.

 

[LittleRooketRider]

nice tip!
I would have to strongly disagree that any ex racer would benefit from being schooled in them to correct their muscle usage, I've re-schooled tens of ex racers and I've never found one that I believe would have benefited from the being schooled in draw reins. They need their racing muscles to be let down slowly and new muscles built up and to be retaught the rider's aids, nothing more than that.

we didn't force my TB mare's head down with them, they were mostly loose and slack! and secondly i haven't reschooled tens of ex-racers, she was my first horse. I know i am by no means an amazing rider and my instructor is 75 so she can't work her in the saddle herself. just because we used draw reins a couple of times didn't mean we weren't taking things slowly...it was not to take a short cut they were there as encouragement.

 

[DabDab]

we didn't force my TB mare's head down with them, they were mostly loose and slack! and secondly i haven't reschooled tens of ex-racers, she was my first horse. I know i am by no means an amazing rider and my instructor is 75 so she can't work her in the saddle herself. just because we used draw reins a couple of times didn't mean we weren't taking things slowly...it was not to take a short cut they were there as encouragement.

I wasn't commenting on your particular case, I have no idea of your individual circumstances
You didn't say that you used them for your ex racer and they helped you, you said that they are useful for ex racers in general, and that was the point I was disagreeing with.

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

According to which school of equestrianism exactly??

Sitting on a horse and collecting rosettes does not make you a good rider. Being Anky van Grunsven does not make you a good rider... Good riding is not measured by your success and how many trophies or young horses you have at each level...

That does not impress me much and is not something I look up to.

Then how do you class someone who is a good rider?

 

[Spring Feather]

According to which school of equestrianism exactly??

Well if competition riders don't do it for you does the Spanish Riding School riders do it? I think the SRS riders are pretty darned good!

 

[SNORKEY]

I don't agree with them at all, no horse should have its head pulled in by force. It should all be from the riders seat, my horse goes on the bit with his reins thrown down on his neck.

 

[Spring Feather]

I don't agree with them at all, no horse should have its head pulled in by force.

If you are seeing riders use them in this fashion then they aren't very good riders I'm afraid. That is not the point of draw reins at all.

 

[tallyho!]

Well if competition riders don't do it for you does the Spanish Riding School riders do it? I think the SRS riders are pretty darned good!

Well no, SOME competition riders DO do it for me I have ones I look up to and ones I choose to ignore (or even campaign against).

The SRS I have seen many times and if only half the people took on half of their methods, the world would be a better place for horses.

 

[tallyho!]

Then how do you class someone who is a good rider?

That is a really good question!!!!! I'll have to think about this one really hard as it's not just about rider ability, it's much more about the horses and how they move under that rider and the philosophies they use in order to train. There is so much more to it than specific things but I guess "harmonious" is where I would start and riding which takes into account the physical and mental abilities of individual horses. Just like we are individuals, working with each ability rather than conforming to rigid rules and shapes and I feel competition has moved away from this...

You only have to look at major clinics in Europe to see how far what I consider to be Baucher's "mistakes" being adopted almost exclusively and on a wide scale! As far as I can see, it's used as a short-cut in dressage...

I don't doubt that gadgets achieve results. But at what cost? The reason why the old classic methods do not get adopted far and wide is because it takes much much longer and produces less flashy movements which get the marks. Yes they may be physiologically correct, but they don't get those marks!

If you look at the focus at the olympics for example... there was a lot more focus away from rollkur for example but dressage still uses those methods to train young horses. I think it's wrong... they KNOW it's wrong yet continue to use these methods...

Other examples exist e.g. cutting competitions, SJ....

I'm not saying I am "classical", not necessarily, because I admire certain western riders for example but I think similarities exist between good, sympathetic riding no matter how you ride. It's much more subtle than "how do you class a good rider?" I think it's more to do with how do you define a well trained, happy and willing horse.

It's not clear cut and I can't really provide a succinct and accurate answer which reflects my feelings on the whole matter but I have tried my best to convey my thoughts... hope you haven't fallen asleep...

 

[Wagtail]

Well put Tally Ho!

I do hate it when successful competition riders (as a whole) are held up as being beyond criticism and universally good riders. Give an average rider the same class of horse, and the opportunities and no doubt they would achieve as much. Some are undoubtedly hugely talented, but others are no more talented than your average Joe.

I too have retrained many ex racers, and have yet to find one that needed any kind of ridden gadget to make them work correctly. In fact, I find ex racers incredibly easy and biddable as a whole. I don't understand why they are frequently cited as candidates for draw reins.

Another use for draw reins often cited, is 'to show a horse that it CAN work correctly.' Why not show them that without them? Or, ,to stop them throwing their heads up during transitions.' I had one of those recently. Usually, I find it an easy habit to break, but this one was not as consistent as I would like. He was ridden in a KK ultra. I changed it to a Bombers happy tongue, and the transitions were instantly clean. So yes, I could have used draw reins, and he would have been unable to throw his head in upwards transitions, but there was a far more simple solution. He obviously disliked the feeling of the lozenge type bit.

 

[Gryfiss]

Sadly VS... that is most commonly what I have seen, and not just DRs but all sorts of gadgetry loosely based on them... so many these days I have lost count.

Horses trundling along on the forehand, so downhill they may as well have shovels on their foreheads, whilst their back legs float about in the air behind them. What makes me laugh is the riders mainly look so serious as if they know what they are doing.

A bit like these...

Compared to what proper, patient, slow and correct training can achieve...

But not many people have the patience these days to wait for muscles to actually build and develop properly. A horse HAS to have done amazing by the age of 4 or it's a failure...

Ah well, such is the life of a competition horse.

Don't be so sure, I have a couple of friend who work at an olympic dressage yard and they use them all the time.

I think it all depend on the horse and rider and it is by no means a long term solution .

 

[tallyho!]

Don't be so sure, I have a couple of friend who work at an olympic dressage yard and they use them all the time.

I think it all depend on the horse and rider and it is by no means a long term solution .

You can ride and claim a gold in the Olympics... But as was demonstrated in London 2012 plain for all to see, it's not what you do, it's the way that you do it and Carl Hester showed how to be humane AND achieve results....

I am not an Olympic rider, I'm so far from it I may as well live on Pluto... But even I can see what is wrong with so many of those pictures showing the European riders in the warm up and even in the arena...

Nevermind the pros right now, what worries me is that all these gadgets which are tantamount to rolkur so widely available and so many young people using them.

On another thread I mentioned how popular questions about these gadgets appear in HHO.... Yet no one ever asks how to improve lateral work and schooling.... Which is, over time, how one would achieve what a Pessoa tries to in a fraction of the time (and less future vets bills). But that's the problem with the old fashioned training. It takes time and patience and no one seems to have very much of either...

 

[_GG_]

Honestly, I love riding a well schooled horse, but I love the horse more.

I try to manage my horses and dogs based around what they need, not what I want. So...I put the time and effort into giving my horses every chance to want to work in a way that supports their needs. Those particular needs being the ability to carry me through the legs via a rounded back, rather than support my weight with their back...something they did not evolve to do. I refuse to think that what I want is more important than what they need.

Take Fly for example. She is at her happiest when doing 4-5 days work a week. She doesn't seem to care what that work is, but without it, she is tense and with it, she is relaxed. So, I want to work her as she tells me in her own way that she needs it. I believe that she needs me to do what I can to enable her to carry me in a way that won't hurt or compromise her. I don't believe that needs requires me to use anything that will take away her choices in how she moves. So, I train her with the principal always being on encouraging her to make the right choices for her. Ifmshe decides to go off my leg and stretch down into a contact, I will ride as quietly as I possibly can and I will give her a little tickle on the withers. If she decides to come back up out of the stretch, I do nothing for a few strides, I let her go that way if she wants to, then I will put my leg on and ask her if she wants to stretch again. If she doesn't, I won't increase my method of asking. I will just ask again when she feels relaxed and ready. You know what...it has been over two years now and she is only just anout ready to go out and start doing some prelims this summer. I can say, hand on heart that the work she gives me, she has chosen to give me and I have never forced anything.

How would draw reins work with a horse like Fly? Well, I would be wanting to use them because I didn't feel she was going the way I wanted. My want, not her need. I may use them with the most experienced, kind, sympathetic hands...but hands that were asking for what I want, not what she needs.
I would be using them to place her head, through an inability to put her head where she wanted it to be, in a place that I wanted her to carry it. So, no matter how nicely I may think I am asking, by the very nature of taking away that choice of hers to carry her head wherever she wanted...I would actually be telling her what to do. Not asking, but telling. I don't think I am so important that she has to do what I tell her to do.

Now, I am no softy softy NH person by any stretch. In fact, probably the opposite. I just don't think I have the right to "make" a horse do anything. If Fly didn't ever want to stretch and carry herself in a way that supported my weight through her rounded back, I would get to a point where I would just accept that wasn't her thing and let her do something else.

Sure, we can make horses do pretty much what we want...most show no ill effects, but the very act of making another animal do something to fulfill our desires disturbs me.

Now...this is a bit dramatic and not on the same level as most artificial aids used by riders, but...at some time, people wanted to see bears dance. Just becaue people wanted it, will never make it ok that they would be forced to do so by the use of rings, whips and bribary with food. Find a bear that when you try to teach it, dances for you, then great...crack on. But when a bear doesn't want to dance...how right can it be to "make" that bear dance.

So....it is not draw reins persay that I don't like. It is the idea that a human can justify putting their wants above another animals needs.

Am I qualified to make judgements like this. Yes, I believe I am...because I grew up spending my summer holidays helping on and occasionally getting to ride the horses on an Olympic show jumpers yard. I was taught to use draw reins on the ponies I used to back and break as a kid. They worked. They worked brilliantly in helping me produce ponies that were obedient, looked fantastic and always impressed at the sales. Then one day I came across a pony that would go ballistic if I took a contact on them. Aother pony later on became really lethargic with their use, but was fantastic without. I started to phase out using them. It always took longer and in some cases caused some heated rows with my boss when it looked like there was no improvement, BUT, they sold for more money and we got MUCH better feedback.

Just because we CAN make a horse do what we want, doesn't mean we should.

 

[tallyho!]

I often wonder _GG_... how long these horses and ponies last being produced in this way?

There is evidence out there now how much damage rollkur can cause in a short space of time. There doesn't seem to be, apart from anecdotals, how much other similar methods cause.

I'm sure you don't have to be forensic scientist though to see the tension in the bodies of those horses above in the draw rein photos. There is absolutely no suppleness in the back, or neck and the hips cannot swing at all. How is it nice to ride? How is it nice for the horse?

Surely, you want a horse to ride that swings through from the quarters, through the back muscles and up into your hand?

Equilibrium Ireland posted a fabulous article... I must try and find it....

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=607365

 

[webble]

Personally, I think they are for lazy people who can't ride properly .

agrees and hies with tallyho

 

[_GG_]

I often wonder _GG_... how long these horses and ponies last being produced in this way?

There is evidence out there now how much damage rollkur can cause in a short space of time. There doesn't seem to be, apart from anecdotals, how much other similar methods cause.

I'm sure you don't have to be forensic scientist though to see the tension in the bodies of those horses above in the draw rein photos. There is absolutely no suppleness in the back, or neck and the hips cannot swing at all. How is it nice to ride? How is it nice for the horse?

Surely, you want a horse to ride that swings through from the quarters, through the back muscles and up into your hand?

Equilibrium Ireland posted a fabulous article... I must try and find it....

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=607365

I have no idea. I just don't like the idea of making any animal do anything just for my pleasure/agenda.

I am not a softy....I just don't like force.

 

[tallyho!]

Well if you take that tack, one wonders if we ought to train a horse for our pleasure at all...

 

[_GG_]

Well if you take that tack, one wonders if we ought to train a horse for our pleasure at all...

Why not? Training and force are two different things. Like I said, I am no softy lady da type person. I love my horses, I love riding them.

We domesticated and created horses the way they are today for our own needs in the past...it is now our duty to do good by them. We can't make everything perfect, but we can do our best to at least not force them.

 

[tallyho!]

Well said

 

[Pongwiffy]

My horse was a complete giraffe who wouldn't have know what long and low was if it hit him in the face. I used draw reins once after I had had him a few months because I was frustrated with our lack of progress.

Immediately he dropped his head, felt all light in my hands and was working in an outline. I couldn't help but wonder how he could suddenly work 'properly' when he couldn't do it at all without them.

The I realised the reason I couldn't do it without was because he genuinely didn't have the right muscles to support that kind of outline yet and therefore the draw reins must be holding him there in very uncomfortable position. It also felt like I had completely robbed him of his spirit and enthusiasm- like he had no choice to obey.

After that I ditched the draw reins, the martingale and the chambon and the bungee I had been lunging him in and just schooled him. Yes it was sometimes hugely frustrating at times, especially in the first year but a couple of years later our stretchy trots and canters and transitions are usually the highlights of our dressage tests and when I get comments about how happy he is to stretch down to the bit and how supple he is etc I feel very proud. Unlike the early days I haven't actually worried about getting him on the bit because it happens naturally when he is relaxed and working correctly.

Based on my experience I don't think I would use draw reins again.

 

[doriangrey]

'One of the most common deceptions is the belief that the lowering of the neck flexes the lumbar vertebrae and increases their range of motion. The optical illusion was explained in 1986 by Jean Marie Denoix. The lowering of the neck reduces the mobility of the lumbar vertebrae. This is true for every horse. Stiffening of the lumbar vertebrae hampers proper dorso-ventral rotation of the pelvis and therefore sound kinematics of the hind legs. In order to compensate for the stiffening of the lumbar vertebrae, the horse increases the work of the iliopsoas muscles, which swings the hind limbs forward. Since the iliopsoas is placed under the lumbosacral junction, increased work of the iliopsoas muscle does induce greater rotation of the lumbosacral junction. This lumbosacral rotation does give the optical illusion that the whole lumbar region moves. In fact, the lumbar vertebrae do not flex. Instead, the horse compensates for the rigidity of the lumbar spine, that was created by the lowering of the neck, with greater intensity in the lumbosacral junction that is situated behind the lumbar vertebrae. The theories of relaxation, stretching and greater mobility of the vertebral column are naïve interpretations of a mechanism which in fact, is working exactly the opposite way.

Today’s knowledge allows returning the favor to the horse. The practical application of advanced scientific knowledge permits us to understand how the horse’s back effectively functions and how the rider can guide the horse’s brain toward efficient coordination of the vertebral column mechanism. This is done by reducing the range of motion of the rider’s back and matching the range of motion of the horse’s back. Through a subtle body language, the rider guides the horse’s brain toward the body coordination appropriate for the effort. This is classical training. At the 17th century The Duke of Newcastle already talked about the stability of the rider’s pelvis. The classic author uses the terms “unmovable pelvis.”


The practical application of pertinent scientific discoveries commences by questioning old theories in the light of new knowledge. It is astounding that instead of upgrading their training and riding techniques to the findings of modern research studies, trainers deliberately refuse new knowledge under the name of tradition. They submit their horses to the same incongruities and suffering as the horses of previous generations. It is equally astounding that riders follow and even protect these primitive ideas. Fortunately, there are also trainers who evolve, upgrading their techniques with true knowledge. In the same line of thought, there are riders who do not let their horses to be damaged by submissive and uneducated training techniques. One of the great horses that we have in training right now had the luck to belong to a rider who refused poor training techniques. The rider stood up for her horse and the horse, which was born as a good horse has evolved into a great horse.


We have today, the capacity to prepare efficiently the horse’s physique for the athletic demand of the performance. We owe this knowledge to the horse. Refusing progress and perpetuating old and heretic beliefs is not classic; it is archaic. If one wants to protect the horse from rollkur, draw reins, deep work and other exploitations, one needs to evolve from the common denominator of all these poor training techniques, which is ignorance. A real classic trainer learns how the horse’s body effectively works and then applies the motto of the most classical school of riding. “Respect for tradition should not prevent the love of progress.” (Colonel Danloux, Cadre Noir de Saumur, 1931)

Jean Luc Cornille'

http://www.scienceofmotion.com/equine_back_research.html

 

[_GG_]

My horse was a complete giraffe who wouldn't have know what long and low was if it hit him in the face. I used draw reins once after I had had him a few months because I was frustrated with our lack of progress.

Immediately he dropped his head, felt all light in my hands and was working in an outline. I couldn't help but wonder how he could suddenly work 'properly' when he couldn't do it at all without them.

The I realised the reason I couldn't do it without was because he genuinely didn't have the right muscles to support that kind of outline yet and therefore the draw reins must be holding him there in very uncomfortable position. It also felt like I had completely robbed him of his spirit and enthusiasm- like he had no choice to obey.

After that I ditched the draw reins, the martingale and the chambon and the bungee I had been lunging him in and just schooled him. Yes it was sometimes hugely frustrating at times, especially in the first year but a couple of years later our stretchy trots and canters and transitions are usually the highlights of our dressage tests and when I get comments about how happy he is to stretch down to the bit and how supple he is etc I feel very proud. Unlike the early days I haven't actually worried about getting him on the bit because it happens naturally when he is relaxed and working correctly.

Based on my experience I don't think I would use draw reins again.

What a lovely post

 

[SpanishNeddy]

I find it amazing the amount of professional riders that use draw reins. It shocks me.

One of my PRE horses competes at a particular dressage show venue in the south east, one could say it is the best dressage show venue in Europe (saying no more!).

Anyway, I was horrified when I went to get a cup of tea and the cafe gallery looked into their indoor school, I saw about 7 liveries/staff riding horses and ALL of them were in draw reins. Also to add, ALL of them were going really badly too. I found it rather funny that my boy on his second dressage outing beat all of their own horses! (which I might add are for sale at very high prices!).

My horses are being trained in the classical way, no gadgets are used at our yard or even allowed. My new stallion that I have just bought was very on the forehand, so at the moment we have gone back to basics with him so he can learn to carry himself. He has been here a few months now but amazing how many people ask me when his first show is I like to take my time and do it properly, but I totally agree TallyHo it is shocking how many people do not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and see the horse as a competition object. Sadly I know a lot of people like this, one even took her horse to a COUNTY show after she had imported him and he had been in the uk just 2 weeks............then she wonders why he was mega tense, going badly and placed last!

 

[DabDab]

I find it amazing the amount of professional riders that use draw reins. It shocks me.

One of my PRE horses competes at a particular dressage show venue in the south east, one could say it is the best dressage show venue in Europe (saying no more!).

Anyway, I was horrified when I went to get a cup of tea and the cafe gallery looked into their indoor school, I saw about 7 liveries/staff riding horses and ALL of them were in draw reins. Also to add, ALL of them were going really badly too. I found it rather funny that my boy on his second dressage outing beat all of their own horses! (which I might add are for sale at very high prices!).

My horses are being trained in the classical way, no gadgets are used at our yard or even allowed. My new stallion that I have just bought was very on the forehand, so at the moment we have gone back to basics with him so he can learn to carry himself. He has been here a few months now but amazing how many people ask me when his first show is I like to take my time and do it properly, but I totally agree TallyHo it is shocking how many people do not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and see the horse as a competition object. Sadly I know a lot of people like this, one even took her horse to a COUNTY show after she had imported him and he had been in the uk just 2 weeks............then she wonders why he was mega tense, going badly and placed last!

If you are talking about the dressage yard that I think you are I had two horses very cheap from them about 5 years ago that were the definition of draw rein ruined - suffice to say that when their riders stopped being able to get them to walk forwards anymore they decided to flog them off cheap. The pair of them used to scuttle sideways, shoot backwards and hop off their front legs to avoid walking into any type of contact.

 

[khalswitz]

It is really interesting that so many people are dead set against any use of gadgets at all, even when used properly and for short term (therefore negating the 'produced by this method' argument). I have to admit, I agree with what Pammy Hutton said at a demo last month that I went to and it really struck a cord with me: she said that dressage theory is great, and it is the way we should aim to produce horses - however there is dressage theory and the is the practical fact that one way does not work for every horse.

She used this in the context of training methods, and whether horses should lower the hindquarters before coming up in front, or whether actually in a lot of cases teaching them to come up in front before lowering the hindquarters works just as well. She did repeatedly tell us that her opinion was a bit far out, but I must say I agree - SOME horses benefit greatly from gadgets like draw reins, where others would be ruined. The trick there is judging which scenario you have! I think you are better erring on the side of caution i.e. sticking to proper dressage theory, but it is a bit narrow minded and a bit troll-y to state that only people who can't ride use gadgets.

As a reply to the point about ex-racers, not ALL of them need it by a long shot, but I have found several to be dead mouthed and upside down giraffe-necks - you COULD eventually get the result of teaching them to relax and lower the head without draw reins (I've done it) but it is just quicker and easier to do this over a few sessions with draw reins as well as lunging in side reins. And about letting their muscle down? That doesn't make a difference to a lifetime of habit in their way of carrying themselves. It's not that they physically can;t do it, otherwise it really would be idiotic using draw reins, but more of a mental block. And for these scenarios, it really helps - my arms aren't pulled out my sockets and he can't evade the contact by skying his head.

I'm not saying for a minute that everyone should use them, and I certainly respect the people who would never use them, but in certain scenarios they are useful, and I think blanket rejecting them without considering that is a little naive as well as derogatory to the riders who use them successfully.

Edit: just to make it clear, I don't advocate draw reins to create an 'outline', only for encouraging the early stages of long and low work.

 

[Tnavas]

One of the biggest drawbacks of 'Draw Reins' is that they encourage horses to come behind the bit - this once a habit is the hardest fault to ever correct.

I remember my UK trainer saying that ocasionally when you have a problem horse that you need to show them the way down - she would allow us to use a Market Harborough but never draw reins - the Market Harborough has a built in limitation which you can adjust as the horse progreses

Otherwise it was lunge in a chambon until the horse understood the head down. By the time they came off the lunge their back muscles had improved no end and ridden work was easier.

I also remember that we didn't have the pressure on us to work the horse 'On the bit' we worked on consistant contact by the rider.

These days many people are in such a rush to compete that they cut the schooling short - just been having a similar conversation on another forum! We rarely ever took a horse out to compete until it was 5 and generally gave it a years schooling at the next level before competing at the level below.

Anything that applies pressure both down and back as Draw reins do will eventually place the horse behind the vertical, no longer able to use it's shoulders freely, or bring hind legs well under it.