Fjord
Well-Known Member
What happens? How sedated does the horse get? Is there anything to be aware of or prepare for if you have to have it done?
Tell me about injected sedation for farrier visit please
- Thread starter Fjord
- Start date
minesadouble
Well-Known Member
Sorry I can't be of real help as we've never done this.
Would Domosedan not be sufficient?
We use this on one of ours and he's fine.
Would Domosedan not be sufficient?
We use this on one of ours and he's fine.
PinkvSantaboots
Well-Known Member
Some farriers don't like horses sedated by the vet as they can get too wobbly and essentially make it difficult and it can actually make it more dangerous, I would try and use sedalin or domosedan before going down the vet route.
Have you tried to shoe the horse before?
Have you tried to shoe the horse before?
Jambarissa
Well-Known Member
Has this horse been sedated before? The amount the vet gives them is more of an art, I had a huge horse who would fall over on less than half the expected dose for his size.
I guess it's up to your farrier then up to the vet to decide if its safe. Lots of rescues are done under sedation so it's not exactly unheard of.
Definitely try a sedative gel first. If this horse is new to you you may be surprised how far you can get with training. It's cheaper in the long run to get help to fix the problem than keep paying for sedation.
Hope it works out.
I guess it's up to your farrier then up to the vet to decide if its safe. Lots of rescues are done under sedation so it's not exactly unheard of.
Definitely try a sedative gel first. If this horse is new to you you may be surprised how far you can get with training. It's cheaper in the long run to get help to fix the problem than keep paying for sedation.
Hope it works out.
Fjord
Well-Known Member
She's had her feet trimmed before, but not since I've had her (she doesn't need shoes). She doesn't like her feet being picked up at the best of times and she objected VERY strongly when my farrier tried.
Unfortunately, while I've been working on her feet, it's no where near enough for the farrier to get near her for a trim, so he suggested sedation, as she really needs doing now. He suggested the vet as the safest option in case we couldn't get her to take the gel. I could try practicing with apple sauce first, then if that works ask the vet about gel.
We want to get her feet sorted, then I can continue to spend time working on training. She's improved from when I first got her, holding her feet up for longer, but definitely not enough to do anything much.
She's a sensitive soul, it's been a massive learning curve for me!
Unfortunately, while I've been working on her feet, it's no where near enough for the farrier to get near her for a trim, so he suggested sedation, as she really needs doing now. He suggested the vet as the safest option in case we couldn't get her to take the gel. I could try practicing with apple sauce first, then if that works ask the vet about gel.
We want to get her feet sorted, then I can continue to spend time working on training. She's improved from when I first got her, holding her feet up for longer, but definitely not enough to do anything much.
She's a sensitive soul, it's been a massive learning curve for me!
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
The issue is knowing how much to give
Reaction to sedation varies hugely to much and you can’t get them to stand on three legs
Too little and they move about and behave badly
Has the vet sedated the horse before ?
Reaction to sedation varies hugely to much and you can’t get them to stand on three legs
Too little and they move about and behave badly
Has the vet sedated the horse before ?
Fjord
Well-Known Member
I'm not aware she's been sedated before, no.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
My usually amenable mare was still able to kick her injured leg out with some force under iv sedation when the vet was clipping her hock to clean and inspect the wound. I had to pick up a front foot. She was teetering about like a drunk, but was still able to express her outrage.
I’d not have fancied a farrier working with her like that. It was only a superficial wound, too (luckily).
I’d not have fancied a farrier working with her like that. It was only a superficial wound, too (luckily).
criso
Coming over here & taking your jobs since 1900
The gel people are mentioning is Domosedan and mustn't be swallowed but absorbed through the mucous membranes.. You squirt under the tongue usually but for mine who can be difficult I put rubber gloves on, put a little on my fingers and rub it into the gums. Repeat until the tube is gone. You must not get it in your skin.
It's great for some things but it takes at least 30 minutes to work, 45 minutes before mine is totally under. Too much and he might be too wobbly to pick feet up, not enough and you can't top up because it takes so long. .
The advantage of injecting sedation is the vet can top up if it's not enough.
Needtoretire
Well-Known Member
For safety' sake I would have vet and farrier on site together. A sedated horse is still very able to lash out. The farrier is at risk of injury and therefore loss of income.
Rowreach
Adjusting my sails
They can react very quickly and forcefully when sedated by injection, despite appearing to be out of it.
Can you try trimming her yourself if she doesn't need shoes?
Can you try trimming her yourself if she doesn't need shoes?
paddy555
Well-Known Member
I see it differently. Sedating her and basically forcing her to have them trimmed isn't going to do anything for her training especially if she is sensitive. What did her previous owner do, they can't have sedated her each time. Did they use a barefoot trimmer.
I have found that what goes wrong in horses like this is the farrier and the way they hold the feet ie the farrier's hold. That holds the foot up high and away from the horse. In a sensitive horse they may think they are going to lose their balance and pulling them out from under the body may simply scare the horse at best or cause slight pain which is magnified in a sensitive soul.
I always try and adjust myself to the horse. You can trim hinds very low down and keep them in a straight line. I have rested them on a block of wood and trimmed that way. The fronts you don't have to use the farriers hold you can keep them low and in a straight line. You do have to bend your back but OTOH the horse stays calm and progresses.
Using a hoof stand with a cradle works well for sensitive horses. Their feet are kept in a straight line under their body and they are simply resting their leg. No one is moving their foot and leg around and interrupting their balance.
I am not suggesting anyone should use a trimmer over a farrier but I think problem horses may do a lot better with a trimmer. Many are female and they often have experience with this sort of horse.
I had one where the previous owner took him for regular physio at a hospital and he was sedated. He needed enough to deal with an elephant and reacted very badly and dangerously. When he had to be sedated with me for a tooth to come out the vet had to spend a lot of time and care with the sedation. No way would I have trimmed him. I didn't even go near him.
I would second trying to trim yourself. By doing this you will find out the best way for her of holding her feet. I'm not suggesting anyone do this without being careful but I find nervous horses feet are much easier to deal with if you are kneeling on one knee and resting the foot low on your knee or even sitting on a box with the foot in your lap. They don't react as much as there is nothing to frighten them to react to.
If you need to trim feet you can always walk on tarmac which trims them or put the horse on concrete. I had to put one rescue horse on concrete for many weeks until it was safe to pick his feet up. The concrete did a much better job that I ever did. He had lovely feet thanks to the concrete.
SO1
Well-Known Member
Bert was sedated by vet for farrier to be shod for first time on Wednesday. He is quite nervous with farrier for his trims so decided this was best especially as I was unable to be there due to work so yard staff would have to manage him.
His shoes are on he was just having fronts but I have not had a chance to speak to YO about his behaviour.
His shoes are on he was just having fronts but I have not had a chance to speak to YO about his behaviour.
SEL
Well-Known Member
I had to sedate both my Appy and Ardennes when they first came to me. It was necessary (one was dangerous, the other terrified) but not particularly safe.
Vet stayed each time.
Please don't let your farrier use the apprentice to trim a sedated horse - if I hadn't been there he would have been badly injured because he had no idea that the horse might struggle to balance on 3 legs. When an experienced farrier did them he was much more aware of body language.
It had to be IV sedation because sedalin turned one into an angry drunk and didn't touch the other.
It was after the apprentice nearly got squashed by 3/4 tonne of horse that I made more if an effort to get external help with the terrified one. That one I sadly had PTS 2 years ago but the Appy (who would literally launch herself at a farrier) is quick and easy to do now. My current farrier doesn't believe me when I tell him she used to try and kill anyone doing her feet - it took time and a lot of work by me though.
Vet stayed each time.
Please don't let your farrier use the apprentice to trim a sedated horse - if I hadn't been there he would have been badly injured because he had no idea that the horse might struggle to balance on 3 legs. When an experienced farrier did them he was much more aware of body language.
It had to be IV sedation because sedalin turned one into an angry drunk and didn't touch the other.
It was after the apprentice nearly got squashed by 3/4 tonne of horse that I made more if an effort to get external help with the terrified one. That one I sadly had PTS 2 years ago but the Appy (who would literally launch herself at a farrier) is quick and easy to do now. My current farrier doesn't believe me when I tell him she used to try and kill anyone doing her feet - it took time and a lot of work by me though.
Fjord
Well-Known Member
The problem is, I've really dropped the ball on this and her feet are now getting very long. I completely underestimated how much they would grow over winter without the hard ground to wear them down. I'm beating myself up about it now. I don't want to have to sedate her but her feet are going to need doing soon. Would walking her on concrete help even though they are long? She's not rideable at the moment. I'd be happy to practice rasping them myself but have no idea what I'm doing.
In the past I think she's had a barefoot trimmer. She was also more settled at her last place so it would have been easier. I wondered if she would prefer a female trimmer rather than a male.
In the past I think she's had a barefoot trimmer. She was also more settled at her last place so it would have been easier. I wondered if she would prefer a female trimmer rather than a male.
criso
Coming over here & taking your jobs since 1900
Could you ask who they are? Some have quite a large range travelling to different areas and it may be an option. Even paying quite a lot for travel will probably be cheaper than getting the vet out and sedation.
Or get a recommendation for someone who is good with difficult horses.
meleeka
Well-Known Member
I had a similar situation, but mine is a Shetland. I wasn’t getting anywhere with training and hadn’t really put that much effort in if I’m honest. The farrier came last week and I just had a whole pocket full of treat nuts and fed them one after the other, holding on tightly so he had something else to think about. The farrier was able to trim his feet and he’ll now let me pick them out too. It’s like he just had to do it to realise it’s ok.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
don't beat yourself up. You are trying your best.
can you do this? Even if the old trimmer has a very long journey it would be worth it firstly to get over the immediate trimming problem, secondly to learn from the trimmer how the mare likes her feet to be handled when trimming. BF trimmers often help their clients to trim/touch up their horses in between visits. They should be able to let you have an older rasp and show you the basics and help you find someone closer if necessary.
If she has had a female BF trimmer who may well have trimmed in the way I described in post 12 and she now meets a male farrier who picks her feet up, unbalances here and is generally very different she may well be pretty upset. (nothing wrong with male farriers)
Walking on concrete will help. It is very abrasive. I shut mine in a concrete yard which was attached to a stable and he wandered around there. The concrete will reduce some of the length as will tarmac if she is safe to lead out for a walk. Abrasive surfaces won't "correct" a foot ie they won't trim a forward running foot back or deal with flare but they will control the length a bit until you can get sorted.
If you would consider a BF trimmer and put an approx location then someone may have a trimmer they can recommend for this sort of sensitive mare. At least that will get you sorted for a while.
Fjord
Well-Known Member
Thanks, I needed to hear that. I'm stressing about it a bit.don't beat yourself up. You are trying your best.
I'm in Cambridgeshire, her previous home was 4 hours away so don't think I can ask them! I'm definitely up for a BF trimmer to see her, I'm happy to pay someone to take their time with her, it would be well worth it to make it a good experience.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
What about finding the name of the trimmer and talking to them. They may be able to tell you about her, how they dealt with her. That would be a start. They will know other trimmers and who may be the best at handling her close to you.
SpeedyPony
Well-Known Member
I had to have one sedated to be trimmed for a while- the gel didn't touch her. I got the vet to come out at the same time as the farrier and they sedated her, then she was trimmed.
All went well, she was a bit wobbly but nothing ridiculous. She was trimmed by me before this, sans sedation, but I didn't trust myself to trim her long term.
Subsequent trims I had her sedated by the vet again, but they kept reducing the dose and she is fine to be trimmed now, completely sober.
I wouldn't worry about having sedation for a trim (besides the cost factor), most vets and farriers will be used to doing it and know how horses generally react to the procedure.
All went well, she was a bit wobbly but nothing ridiculous. She was trimmed by me before this, sans sedation, but I didn't trust myself to trim her long term.
Subsequent trims I had her sedated by the vet again, but they kept reducing the dose and she is fine to be trimmed now, completely sober.
I wouldn't worry about having sedation for a trim (besides the cost factor), most vets and farriers will be used to doing it and know how horses generally react to the procedure.
rara007
Well-Known Member
It’s more routine than you probably realise!
100% do not kneel or sit on anything near a horse that needs to be sedated to do feets, legs!
100% do not kneel or sit on anything near a horse that needs to be sedated to do feets, legs!
Cragrat
Well-Known Member
I can't help with a recommendation, but I agree - you are doing far more than many . A good sympathetic trimmer really should be able to help. A small handheld Horselyx is also very useful. Its the only way I can get my horse to agree to the vet injecting him for his vacs or teeth sedation.
I also agree that sedation can be dangerous - my big lad is cheap drunk, and despite me telling every vet not to use a too much, he invariably ends up propped up on the stable wall. The other who needs a Horselyx to be injected, is actually dangerous when sedated unless handled carefully. When he was wounded and needed stitching, he thrashed around in a very violent and unpredictable way, and despite having had a full dose initially, it was incredibly difficult to top him up because by thenhe was very wound up.
Road work is fantastic for wearing hooves down, especially when softened by all this rain. Don't be alarmed by chips or tears, but just keep an eye for gravel. Road will really start to build strong well shaped hooves - if you could do enough, you might not even need a trimmer very often!
criso
Coming over here & taking your jobs since 1900
You could try Jackie Samson https://www.barefoothorse.info/profile/jackie-sansom/
She trims mine as she has clients in Herts but she's based in Cambridgeshire I think.
I would explain the situation and see if she would be willing to work with your horse to get her used to being trimmed.
HopOnTrot
Well-Known Member
Sedation is so variable, my 13.2 I wouldn’t even try to get her to balance on 3 legs, the 12.2 is sober very quickly.
Could you get something like a “riders rasp” which is a L shape and not as unwieldy as a farrier rasp and try to take a little off every day?
What’s your relationship with your farrier like? I know mine would happily adapt to the horse, he’s really quiet, gentle and patient but he took years to find!
Could you get something like a “riders rasp” which is a L shape and not as unwieldy as a farrier rasp and try to take a little off every day?
What’s your relationship with your farrier like? I know mine would happily adapt to the horse, he’s really quiet, gentle and patient but he took years to find!
cauda equina
Well-Known Member
Treats worked for my Shetland too
He'd been ok to trim but became very suspicious of everyone and everything after some dental treatment
A quiet farrier and a pocketful of nuts got the job done and he's generally much better about picking up his feet now
Another thing to consider if you can get someone reasonably local is to do the trims in 2 goes - 2 feet one day and 2 feet another so the whole thing doesn't get too overwhelming for her
little_critter
Well-Known Member
I think it’s worth asking. You never know, maybe their trimmer travelled 2 hours to get to the old home and is closer to you than you think.
Even if they can’t come to you they might offer suggestions on how to handle her.
Boughtabay
Well-Known Member
I’m not sure my farrier would be happy trimming a horse that had been sedated with more than something to “take the edge off”. I personally wouldn’t want to pick the feet up of a sedated horse. How bad are the feet? Will they wait for a week of 2/3x a day intensive practicing - possibly with the farrier booked and paid for a trim twice, once just to familiarise with the horse with no pressure of trimming then a few days later again to actually try and trim?
I think you need to have a look at the reasons you think he might be reacting too. My current gelding came to me relatively unhandled, well-grown & late cut. Particularly his back feet had barely been touched. With a lot of practice he let me pick them up but wouldn’t let the farrier anywhere near without dramatics. I once had to lift and hold a hoof then sneakily pass it over because he was turning himself inside out at the thought of him lifting it. We must have looked nuts. Now he stands like a rock, just from volume of practice (and a haynet) - so don’t despair it can be done! however, not to be doom and gloom, my recent mare also struggled with the farrier & her previous owner said she was usually good. With us to begin with she was vicious and in hindsight it was the first sign she had something going on in her feet that was pinching (navicular).
I think you need to have a look at the reasons you think he might be reacting too. My current gelding came to me relatively unhandled, well-grown & late cut. Particularly his back feet had barely been touched. With a lot of practice he let me pick them up but wouldn’t let the farrier anywhere near without dramatics. I once had to lift and hold a hoof then sneakily pass it over because he was turning himself inside out at the thought of him lifting it. We must have looked nuts. Now he stands like a rock, just from volume of practice (and a haynet) - so don’t despair it can be done! however, not to be doom and gloom, my recent mare also struggled with the farrier & her previous owner said she was usually good. With us to begin with she was vicious and in hindsight it was the first sign she had something going on in her feet that was pinching (navicular).
cauda equina
Well-Known Member
You could try clicker training too
My Shetland gets a click and a treat for anything co-operative involving his feet
My Shetland gets a click and a treat for anything co-operative involving his feet
Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
I had vet and farrier on the yard together so that vet could sedate and farrier could trim a Clydesdale mare. Both very experienced, excellent at their jobs. We had to sedate several times but with practice she improved. The first time it was found that she had an abscess in both hind feet, which I don't suppose helped her to feel comfortable until they had been dealt with.