Tell me about show cockers

[blackcob]

I fully accept the limits of things like COI - to use Alec's example, it would appear on paper that deerhounds are far more genetically diverse and in more robust health than cockers, which we both know to not be the whole picture. However, it would be foolish to completely disregard it as a tool. Consistent loss of genetic diversity is a ticking time bomb for a breed and 17% is unsustainable - these are the levels in which proliferation of genetic disease occurs and inbreeding depression rears its head. For two apparently unrelated dogs to only have enough genetic material between them to result in almost the equivalent of a father/daughter mating is alarming for the future of the breed.

To use CT's examples the use of imported dogs is surely very important but unfortunately demonstrates one of the limitations of COI; very often fewer generations are used when calculating for imported dogs which can result in an artificially lowered figure - go back another generation or two and more related dogs appear.

I also concede the point that no-one would be breeding like this if the dogs weren't outwardly healthy and successful, and I've no doubt that the vast majority are! The risk comes from things diagnosed later in life, PRA and DCM come to mind for cockers, the latter with an average age at diagnosis of something like 7. A popular sire will have several hundred offspring on the ground by then and it's too late. IIRC similar has happened in other breeds, haemophilia in GSDs is a case in point (I am ready to be corrected by the GSD mafia! )

Those breeding for the show ring take a lot of flack for their breeding practices (and rightly so in a lot of cases, thinking of the physical exaggerations that have proliferated purely as a result of what is being rewarded in the ring, and loss of working ability) but in this instance they appear to be taking a far more long term approach to the genetic health of the breed.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I agree, breeds need to evolve. Springers are the third most numerous registered breed in the country, labs being first, I believe. An infusion of foreign blood is desperately needed, be it Irish or further afield. Trouble is, the purists (stick in the mud people who refuse to acknowledge the benefit) won't have it. Look at the lady who added foreign blood to the Dalmatian lines to attempt to remove the purine issue: her line is still not recognised, although it may be the saving of the breed in future years.

I do get cross at the 'designer' cross breed thing, but to save the breed, we need to drastically re-think the purist way, without breeding the designer types for money.

So patchworkpony, what are your current thoughts on breed and type? I'm lame as heck still, but I've managed two dog walks with some very lively springers this morning, although I have no idea how I'm supposed to get the vacuum downstairs and clipping the cob will have to wait!

 

[Patchworkpony]

So patchworkpony, what are your current thoughts on breed and type?

To be honest a bit confused and sad that there are so many man-made problems in dogs now. In my youth you could get a good old mongrel or cross breed for next to nothing and most lived to a ripe old age. It seems now that every breed is beset with health problems of some kind which is why everyone needs insurance these days. My vet said that most of the working cockers only come in for their annual injection so maybe Alec's got a point.

I must say though that all these breeding lines points are way over my head. All I want is a nice spaniel to love, work and have some fun with. I've been talking to someone who knows all the working spaniel breeders in our area and thinks she may be able to find me something fairly grounded. What exactly do you do with your boys in the way of work? Do you do field trials? I would love to go and watch some - used to go years as I was going to compete with my springer but then hunting and a busy showing schedule got in the way. I think you may have put a video up on here of working two dogs together - would love the link. What part of the country are you based in?

 

[Cinnamontoast]

My lot don't work, they are trained as if they work and the naughty one in particular has been trained to search for items up a height and for scent. We do a lot of water retrieves. They're a bit of a tag team, probably very frowned upon!

We're in Hertfordshire and have a good friend who is a gun dog trainer. We are in a gun dog group, but I don't have time to work my lot.

I think you should get a worker, I'm sure it would be fine and you have to go with your heart. As long as you can get out and about, then why not? There are a pair of spanners locally who walk beautifully, attached to their owner's electric wheelchair.

That video, which I posted on your thread about Cockers being madder than springers: http://youtu.be/pZR2l_IQmlI

I told the OH he should pretend to use the Force when training, they go to hand signals, voice, anything!

 

[Patchworkpony]

My lot don't work, they are trained as if they work and the naughty one in particular has been trained to search for items up a height and for scent. We do a lot of water retrieves. They're a bit of a tag team, probably very frowned upon!

We're in Hertfordshire and have a good friend who is a gun dog trainer. We are in a gun dog group, but I don't have time to work my lot.

I think you should get a worker, I'm sure it would be fine and you have to go with your heart. As long as you can get out and about, then why not? There are a pair of spanners locally who walk beautifully, attached to their owner's electric wheelchair.

That video, which I posted on your thread about Cockers being madder than springers: http://youtu.be/pZR2l_IQmlI

I told the OH he should pretend to use the Force when training, they go to hand signals, voice, anything!

Thank you SO much I am going to go with my heart and get a working spaniel. Toy breeds do nothing for me I'm afraid as I like proper country dogs with a purpose. Your encouragement has been wonderful and has meant a great deal. I'd convinced myself that I was too old but I now know if I get this kind of dog I would give it the love and commitment it needs and it certainly won't be left locked up all day like so many dogs. I spoke to a local breeder tonight and she said they are really loyal little dogs that just want to please and I do love training. My beloved fell pony breed is a bit beyond me now but I think a cocker is probably a bit like a fell. My fell mare was loyal, loving, intelligent, quick to learn but always busy and terribly impatient so I guess a spaniel won't be too much different. Have a very Happy New Year!

 

[alainax]

From my very limited experience, the working cockers are fabulous dogs. I also took a look at the show cocker spaniels, but didn't like they way they looked.

I have never met a breed so easy and willing to learn and work. Our girl is a pet, and amazes our friends with her obedience and happy disposition. We have had offers from a local man who uses them whilst shooting to buy her, and threats from friends to steal her! Don't get me wrong, she had her moments - with our house cats in particular, however that was a matter of novice trainers more than anything! We have a young family, and she is very gentle and loving. Although she is energetic, there is never a time where you feel overwhelmed by her - a simple command and she is all ears!

She wouldn't dare take this toy from the baby even as he flapped it around, until she was told it was ok.

 

[Alec Swan]

alainax, a smart little dog, eye contact too, that's what's wanted!

Your bottom pic; if I wriggle my cursor up and down, your baby's feet go up and down too! Excellent!

Alec.

 

[Patchworkpony]

From my very limited experience, the working cockers are fabulous dogs. I also took a look at the show cocker spaniels, but didn't like they way they looked.

I have never met a breed so easy and willing to learn and work. Our girl is a pet, and amazes our friends with her obedience and happy disposition. We have had offers from a local man who uses them whilst shooting to buy her, and threats from friends to steal her! Don't get me wrong, she had her moments - with our house cats in particular, however that was a matter of novice trainers more than anything! We have a young family, and she is very gentle and loving. Although she is energetic, there is never a time where you feel overwhelmed by her - a simple command and she is all ears!

She wouldn't dare take this toy from the baby even as he flapped it around, until she was told it was ok.

What a totally gorgeous little dog - you must be so proud of her.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Thank you SO much I am going to go with my heart and get a working spaniel. Toy breeds do nothing for me I'm afraid as I like proper country dogs with a purpose. Your encouragement has been wonderful and has meant a great deal. I'd convinced myself that I was too old but I now know if I get this kind of dog I would give it the love and commitment it needs and it certainly won't be left locked up all day like so many dogs. I spoke to a local breeder tonight and she said they are really loyal little dogs that just want to please and I do love training. My beloved fell pony breed is a bit beyond me now but I think a cocker is probably a bit like a fell. My fell mare was loyal, loving, intelligent, quick to learn but always busy and terribly impatient so I guess a spaniel won't be too much different. Have a very Happy New Year!

Excellent! Handy to have a local breeder. When are pups due?

 

[Patchworkpony]

Excellent! Handy to have a local breeder. When are pups due?

Not until a lot later this year but we have just been out to lunch at the Dartmoor hotel with the little working cocker I adore and the owner has given me the name of another local breeder. It is SO delightful this spaniel - it's quiet, very obedient, exceedingly gentle, very intelligent and at no time does it ever smell. My dream dog! The owner is thinking of putting it in pup but not until much later this year - not sure I can wait that long.

 

[Patchworkpony]

There is in my view, a problem looming and it concerns me, but that can wait for another time.

Alec.

Alec I just HAVE to know what this looming problem is. Sorry but I really don't think you can say that and then leave us all on the edge of our seats! Also you said 'I don't believe that any of those dogs which we see today have ever been health tested. Most of those who breed from top class stock ignore the directions suggested by the Kennel Club, and with good reason'.

Lots of people round here advertise home bred working pups from their working spaniel and they certainly never have DNA tests etc. done - so is it risky buying these pups even if the parents are healthy or should you only ever buy from accredited breeders who always have a waiting list. AND because these breeders have usually docked the tails they say they can only sell to people who are going to use them in the shooting field, so if you just want a pet (which will still be worked but in perhaps agility) they say that they are obliged to sell to working homes first. Minefield or what!

 

[Alec Swan]

For those who breed and train dogs commercially, and who are generally the most successful, their work is a serious business. With the limited number of whelpings that a bitch is correctly permitted and to have registered, is it 5 or 6 litters in her lifetime? something like that, a bitch through her life may produce about 35 pups. Consider the dog which BlackCob referred to who had in excess of 100 coverings in a year, then the revenue to be derived from a Dog in a lifetime may earn his owner £200++k, whereas an equally successful Bitch may show a return of about £20-30k at best.

The economics of training a Dog and a Bitch simply have no comparison. Why bother to campaign a Bitch and win the Championship with her, when a Dog will show a financial return of probably 10 times that amount. By breeding from the dogs which achieve the status of a Field Trial Champion (FtCh) so we set the benchmark of dogs which are trainable, capable and suitable. That's how and why working gundogs are judged and bred.

Currently, we're still reliant upon the Dam-lines of 20 years ago. There are very few dam-lines which would have the bitches judged upon their merits, and which are replacing those which were previously available. In another 20 years there will be no dam-lines which are worth bothering ourselves with, we're already reliant upon 3 or 4 generations back and that is where the problem lays. The Irish will tell us that "It's all in the mammy", and they're right and the 'mammies' (the dam-lines) are being neglected.

Those few bitches which do reach the top are commanding pup-prices of between £1500 and £2000 each, but then generally only for the first litter. If those first pups born don't succeed, then despite her own achievements she'll be relegated to the ranks of an also-ran, with pups being sold for £5-600. The risks attached to campaigning Bitches are too great, and it's simply the economics.

Alec.

 

[Patchworkpony]

For those who breed and train dogs commercially, and who are generally the most successful, their work is a serious business. With the limited number of whelpings that a bitch is correctly permitted and to have registered, is it 5 or 6 litters in her lifetime? something like that, a bitch through her life may produce about 35 pups. Consider the dog which BlackCob referred to who had in excess of 100 coverings in a year, then the revenue to be derived from a Dog in a lifetime may earn his owner £200++k, whereas an equally successful Bitch may show a return of about £20-30k at best.

The economics of training a Dog and a Bitch simply have no comparison. Why bother to campaign a Bitch and win the Championship with her, when a Dog will show a financial return of probably 10 times that amount. By breeding from the dogs which achieve the status of a Field Trial Champion (FtCh) so we set the benchmark of dogs which are trainable, capable and suitable. That's how and why working gundogs are judged and bred.

Currently, we're still reliant upon the Dam-lines of 20 years ago. There are very few dam-lines which would have the bitches judged upon their merits, and which are replacing those which were previously available. In another 20 years there will be no dam-lines which are worth bothering ourselves with, we're already reliant upon 3 or 4 generations back and that is where the problem lays. The Irish will tell us that "It's all in the mammy", and they're right and the 'mammies' (the dam-lines) are being neglected.

Those few bitches which do reach the top are commanding pup-prices of between £1500 and £2000 each, but then generally only for the first litter. If those first pups born don't succeed, then despite her own achievements she'll be relegated to the ranks of an also-ran, with pups being sold for £5-600. The risks attached to campaigning Bitches are too great, and it's simply the economics.

Alec.

Thank you for answering my question so fully. A most interesting and erudite answer. I wonder how many other spaniel breeders have given the problem this much thought? It is very worrying when you strip it all down to simple basic economics - this why one struggles to find a decent healthy dog and ditto a decent native pony.

 

[H_A_C]

If you ignore the very minor recall problem I'm having currently (I'm putting it down to adolescence), I was in the same dilemma as you I had a good friend about to have her 2nd litter and was completely torn. With some people saying they were mental others saying they are a production of there upbringing.

I can safely say Beau is lovely the most affectionate dog I've ever met, he accepts everything learns so quickly, and comes for cuddles every morning in bed.

He is 7 months doesn't need masses of walking (not that I would at his age) he has started puppy agility and today done sent work all with gusto.

 

[Alec Swan]

The answer to the question of whether to concentrate on Dogs or Bitches could be solved by having single sex Championships whereby the Bitches are allowed their own Championship Trials, rather as it is in horse racing, and so the Dam-lines would be maintained, strengthened and be of worth. I can't see it happening somehow!

Alec.

 

[{97702}]

Thank you for answering my question so fully. A most interesting and erudite answer. I wonder how many other spaniel breeders have given the problem this much thought? It is very worrying when you strip it all down to simple basic economics - this why one struggles to find a decent healthy dog and ditto a decent native pony.

No, this isn't why Patchworkpony - luckily for the vast majority of breeders it is not all about economics, it is about producing an excellent specimen of the breed to carry on their line not about whether they can make money from what they do! If someone is looking at it purely from economics they most certainly should not be breeding, as they clearly do not have the interests of any breed - whether equine or canine - at heart. In my personal opinion you can 'overthink' a situation a little too much, and whilst it is extremely important to go to a reputable breeder who health tests their stock you cannot guarantee any animal will be free from illness or injury, whether inherited or not, unless you resort to a stuffed toy from a shop

 

[Patchworkpony]

If you ignore the very minor recall problem I'm having currently (I'm putting it down to adolescence), I was in the same dilemma as you I had a good friend about to have her 2nd litter and was completely torn. With some people saying they were mental others saying they are a production of there upbringing.

I can safely say Beau is lovely the most affectionate dog I've ever met, he accepts everything learns so quickly, and comes for cuddles every morning in bed.

He is 7 months doesn't need masses of walking (not that I would at his age) he has started puppy agility and today done sent work all with gusto.

Thanks for that - very reassuring. I am probably going to wait until spring so I can do my homework on breeders etc. Confusing as to where to go! Please put up a pic of your little man, he sounds SO adorable.

 

[Patchworkpony]

In my personal opinion you can 'overthink' a situation a little too much, and whilst it is extremely important to go to a reputable breeder who health tests their stock you cannot guarantee any animal will be free from illness or injury, whether inherited or not, unless you resort to a stuffed toy from a shop

As I told Alec most of the reputable breeders round here sell pups with docked tails so favour shooting homes in the main. Only if they have puppies left over will they consider a pet home - very difficult unless you lie and say you are going to use the dog on proper live shoots. So does one then go to an amateur breeder who doesn't do health checks but equally doesn't stipulate the dog has to go shooting- as of course it has a full tail. 'There's a hole in my bucket....'

 

[hairycob]

We have a 3yo working cocker who I suspect may have helped H_A_C in making her decision after she babysat him. He is lively but is happy burning off a lot of his energy in the garden. He loves people and would do anything for a tennis ball. He loves his flyball & is a great favourite at the nursing home when OH visits his mum.

 

[{97702}]

As I told Alec most of the reputable breeders round here sell pups with docked tails so favour shooting homes in the main. Only if they have puppies left over will they consider a pet home - very difficult unless you lie and say you are going to use the dog on proper live shoots. So does one then go to an amateur breeder who doesn't do health checks but equally doesn't stipulate the dog has to go shooting- as of course it has a full tail. 'There's a hole in my bucket....'

In your position I would have gone for a CKCS - based on my experiences of 34 years of the breed, knowing many hundreds of them who have been repeatedly health, fit, active dogs living on average to around 14 years old age, in apparent defiance of all the horror stories you see perpetuated about them

 

[Patchworkpony]

In your position I would have gone for a CKCS - based on my experiences of 34 years of the breed, knowing many hundreds of them who have been repeatedly health, fit, active dogs living on average to around 14 years old age, in apparent defiance of all the horror stories you see perpetuated about them

No breeders round here - seem to have moved or given up. I won't travel miles now to look at animals as I spent too many years doing that finding horses.

 

[{97702}]

No breeders round here - seem to have moved or given up. I won't travel miles now to look at animals as I spent too many years doing that finding horses.

And unfortunately therein lies your problem - the likelihood of finding exactly what you want on your doorstep is slim to non-existent, so in my experience in the end people either 'make do' with another breed or 'make do' with going to a breeder who doesn't exactly meet their requirements.

 

[blackcob]

The answer to the question of whether to concentrate on Dogs or Bitches could be solved by having single sex Championships whereby the Bitches are allowed their own Championship Trials, rather as it is in horse racing, and so the Dam-lines would be maintained, strengthened and be of worth. I can't see it happening somehow!

Alec.

This is perhaps the difference with the show cockers then, as there's as many tickets for bitches as for dogs. Entry numbers for bitches are consistently higher than those for dogs. And though I don't doubt that some show breeders are making big money it's less about economics and more about achieving the big wins and titles, IMO. Even the most popular and successful show cocker sires only seem to be used for 20-25 litters.

I'm in agreement with Lévrier on the travelling point, though perhaps not to the extremes of a good friend of mine who is going to Sweden for the second time to fetch another puppy. What she wants isn't available in the UK so she's driving for seven days straight to the arctic circle to fetch it.

(And yes she offered to bring one back for me, I'm hopping mad I'm not allowed one yet...)

 

[Cinnamontoast]

There's a springer breeder on the Isle of Skye who suggested I come to get my bil a pup. She has people from Europe go to her. She has a litter on the ground now. I would travel, but not that far, although we went to Herdord to ensure we got the right size/type of springer for our first two. It's definitely worth travelling.

 

[{97702}]

This is perhaps the difference with the show cockers then, as there's as many tickets for bitches as for dogs. Entry numbers for bitches are consistently higher than those for dogs. And though I don't doubt that some show breeders are making big money it's less about economics and more about achieving the big wins and titles, IMO. Even the most popular and successful show cocker sires only seem to be used for 20-25 litters.

I'm in agreement with Lévrier on the travelling point, though perhaps not to the extremes of a good friend of mine who is going to Sweden for the second time to fetch another puppy. What she wants isn't available in the UK so she's driving for seven days straight to the arctic circle to fetch it.

(And yes she offered to bring one back for me, I'm hopping mad I'm not allowed one yet...)

That's quite standard in my experience - my mum has exported to Finland, Denmark, Sweden, America, France etc etc to people who want to get the right dog. As she won't allow the puppy (not tiny puppy obviously, a teenager!) to travel in the hold the prospective owners will fly over, and fly back with the dog on their knee

 

[H_A_C]

These are my 2 together, he was approximately 6 months when this was taken!

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Christmas Jumper

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Snuggle tunnel he loves this!!!

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[Patchworkpony]

These are my 2 together, he was approximately 6 months when this was taken!

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Gorgeous - my favourite colour.

 

[H_A_C]

I've added another couple of pics. I love black dogs. Having a debate with myself about castration as he is no problem doesn't mark, didn't notice a bitch on heat last week. ........ not sure if I want to put him through surgery for no reason

 

[blackcob]

fly back with the dog on their knee

Fine with a CKCS, bit of an ask with a land shark 16 week old sibe puppy.

Two of Roscoe's relations have gone to Australia in the last year, that must be a big undertaking, but necessary for the continued health of the breed. Certainly the dogs nutty friend is bringing over are completely unrelated to anything currently in the UK, from proven working stock, and oh god I neeeeeed one it's not fair.

 

[{97702}]

Fine with a CKCS, bit of an ask with a land shark 16 week old sibe puppy.

Two of Roscoe's relations have gone to Australia in the last year, that must be a big undertaking, but necessary for the continued health of the breed. Certainly the dogs nutty friend is bringing over are completely unrelated to anything currently in the UK, from proven working stock, and oh god I neeeeeed one it's not fair.

Go on, go on, have one have one HAVE ONE