Tennessee walking horse + video

I think the showing of TWH's is all good and well and Im sure there are many trainers who would not 'sore' their horses however this unfortunately does go on and "we" i.e people, need to think of a way to completely eradicate this terrible torture these horses go through.
 
It has been said that the Paso is the Smoothest ride under saddle"
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I have never ridden one, but I see them aech year at out local Midwest horse expo. They are very nice horses!
Also, My realtor and friend knows a man that has some Rocky Mountains in Wisconsin and I am trying to badger her into taking me to ride one! I would love one of them...especially the deep chocolate colored ones with the flaxen mane and tails~! So gorgeous! I am going to find a pic!
 
I think what is done with TWH is disgusting, sorry Jade.

I know they are not all sored, but from the people I've known who've shown them, they're kept inside most hours of the day, they get broken and worked before they're even 2 years old [that one in flintus video was coming 3] and it is extremely common to have blocks on the front feet to prop them up, and use weights etc to make the horses carry their legs higher. Not to mention the ridiculously long shanks on the bits there usually are.

I think the whole sport is horrible. Natural classes would be a different matter IMO.
 
i dont usually comment on clips but i have just watched the clip flintus put on and personally i think its gross, doesnt even look like a horse!
looks a little different in the ring but the clips in the field..... yuck

the latterly posted clips of the TWH moving naturally were interesting but i think the extagerated 'show ring' gait is unpleasent to watch.
 
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I think what is done with TWH is disgusting, sorry Jade.

I know they are not all sored, but from the people I've known who've shown them, they're kept inside most hours of the day, they get broken and worked before they're even 2 years old [that one in flintus video was coming 3] and it is extremely common to have blocks on the front feet to prop them up, and use weights etc to make the horses carry their legs higher. Not to mention the ridiculously long shanks on the bits there usually are.

I think the whole sport is horrible. Natural classes would be a different matter IMO.

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Almost all horses are started under saddle at age two here. I have not very often heard of it being a problem, and makes a better horse imo to begin at a younger age. I can undrestand however you not wanting to jump a horse at that age. That would be awful on a young horses joints if you did that.

I suppose that it is just something people are not used to . I can imagine if I posted vids of alot of steeplechase accidents many here would be horrified and think it an awful equestrian sport that subjects horses to brutal and fatal injury.
I am not condoning the few handfulls of horrible cases, but as harvig stated, I am sure most of them are spoiled rotten.

btw...where do you get your facts that they are all confined to stalls all day

I am sorry, but I doubt this is true

Here in America we do not have the "stabling" culture that seems to be prevelant in the UK. I Imagine many many more horses are kept in stalls in the UK than anywhere here. Just my observation and an opinion based on things I have heard. Oh dear, now tht's me judging based on things I may not know
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not a critical post at all but could some one explaine what 'wet saddle blankets' are for in regards to training TWH??

it was on one of the links and im well confused!!
 
I'm sorry but that looks terrible. Instinct must surely say that that horse looks very unnatural and uncomfortable. I wish I hadn't seen it now. I have been to Iceland and you can't compare any horses gait with the way that horse was moving in the video. If horses have been selectively bred to genuinely move like that then I don't agree with that either
 
What is with the way her tail is carried right up over her arse? And why is the saddle so far back?
 
I get my "facts" from several American forums I've been a member of in the past, with members who compete in Saddleseat classes.

I know it is common there to start a horse under saddle at two, although I would never agree with it, but I know plenty of TWH who have been working at 18 months, and that is with strong bits and stretching things and blocks on their feet and weights etc. Looking at the way they move it looks to me like that grossly exaggerated pace would be a huge strain on a young horse, although I wouldn't jump a horse til 4 either, personally.

Natural classes are one thing, but having read a lot about showing TWH on many forums from people in the business, I still find it horrible and unfair.
 
yep, wet saddle blankets/pads is a term often used in the US - it means that the horse is being worked! Loved the clip of the grey Paso Fino....
Love to see these different breeds - we must realise that the world is a big place and we will see things that are not familiar to us. It doesn't mean they are ugly or wrong (obviously I'm not talking about cruelty here, which can be seen everywhere and in every discipline - No one discipline is exempt from this, believe me!)
Please everyone, let us open our minds just a bit - we can say that we don't like it or it is not to our taste, (bit like some foreign food..!) but to say it is 'retarded' etc is simply ignorant. Sorry, but I hate this sniping, self righteous attitude that some of us have in this country, where we denigrate and ridicule everything that is different to what we know and love, without actually finding out about it first. Ok, I'll shut up now
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I can understand your horror. I was watching Badminton for the first time this year and I have to say I was shoked too!

Those jumps they had set for the horses made me cringe. it seems like only a situation a horse would be in for a desperate emergency other wise I cannot see a horse ever doing that on a common basis in it's life.

I suppose shock can happen in any form of horsemanship when an observer is not used to it or understands it properly. I bet if I went to a few Badminton type shows I amy learn to love it! It did amaze me!
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also, keep in mind that different breeds mature physically at different rates hence starting them earlier. For example, a Warmblood or TB matures far slower than a Quarter horse, so starting them at age two would be silly (although common in racing which is a debate all it's own) I am not a fan of hard working a two yr old , so let's get that straight. I think MILD work under saddle is just fine for certain breeds at younger ages.

btw.....saying your fact is based on friends from an American saddle seat forum is like me trying to convince someone that I have extensive Hunting, dressage, and jumping knowledge based on my time spent on here. I would feel ridiculous if I said that.
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sorry spiral. I have PMS today and I may go on and on forever
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Nothing personal at all! I still adore you!
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Nothing personal to you either!

I am not claiming I am an expert on the sport by any means at all!

All I am saying is that I have spoken to many people, or read discussions from people in the sport on the methods they use and their common practices - although I really hope that isn't the case for everyone in the sport.

Just the same way I am sure you could comment on certain things in the UK that you've read from the forum!

Anyway I wouldn't want to make your PMS worse so I'll withdraw now [and I still adore you too
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Just the same way I am sure you could comment on certain things in the UK that you've read from the forum!



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*Whispers*
ok...well I suppose I DO do that from time to time to people here
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but shhhh, don't tell anyone! Even to Merrill and he is FROM the UK
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I said I would 'feel ridiculous" I never said I didnt do it!
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What is with the way her tail is carried right up over her arse? And why is the saddle so far back?

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It would be interesting to see where the saddle is placed when the horse is actually tacked up in the first place wouldn't it?

"The Tail
The tail is left long, and often the bottom of it is kept wrapped up at the stable so that it grows long enough to skim or even drag on the ground as the horse moves. Formerly a Three-Gaited horse's tail was shaved to balance the look of the shaved mane, but this is no longer a common practice.


Tail-Setting
Some breeds (such as the American Saddlebred and Tennessee Walking Horse), are shown with an artificially "set tail" in the high action classes, such as 3-gaited and 5-gaited under saddle classes, and Fine Harness competition. Set tails are not allowed in Saddlebred or Tennessee Walking horse "pleasure" classes or in most "flat shod" classes, and some saddle seat breeds, such as the Arabian and Morgan, prohibit it altogether.

Tail setting is a controversial subject. To create the artificial line popular in competition, an operation is sometimes performed in which the retractor muscles on the underside of the dock are nicked (the tail is not broken, as some people believe). Once healed, the tail will not lay totally flat.

However it is also possible to put the horse in a humane tail brace, a device which will keep the tail up without the horse having to go through the nicking procedure. However, whether a tail brace is used or the horse has had the nicking operation, in either case the tail must then be kept in a "tail set" to maintain the look. A tail set is a harness-like device with straps that loop from the chest of the horse to the back of the tail using a crupper. A tail set holds the tail upright and stretches the muscles that hold the tail up, preventing the tail from gradually sinking down. Set tails require much effort on the part of the groom. If the set tail is not taken care of appropriately, even a nicked tail will drop down to a more normal position in a few months. , Because it would be dangerous to turn a horse out in a tail set, horses in active competition must stay in a stall most of the time except when being schooled or exercised under direct supervision. Only in retirement or during a long layoff is the tail set removed and the horse allowed pasture turnout" No comment
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I'd like to ride one of these horses just to see what they are like, not the wedge shod/jingly chained show horses, just a normal one. What are their temperaments like I wonder?
 
I'm sorry, but that's the most hideous looking thing I've ever seen! I don't know anything about it so I'm not commenting in a oh it's all soo cruel! Just I don't like the look of it. The shape of the horse kind of reminds of of a hyena?
 
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I'm sorry, but that's the most hideous looking thing I've ever seen! I don't know anything about it so I'm not commenting in a oh it's all soo cruel! Just I don't like the look of it. The shape of the horse kind of reminds of of a hyena?

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I agree with this. I find nothing appealing about it at all. I know about soring, and of course I abhor it. I don't know whether the horse in the video would 'naturally' move like this but I doubt it. Poor thing.
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also, keep in mind that different breeds mature physically at different rates hence starting them earlier. For example, a Warmblood or TB matures far slower than a Quarter horse, so starting them at age two would be silly (although common in racing which is a debate all it's own) I am not a fan of hard working a two yr old , so let's get that straight. I think MILD work under saddle is just fine for certain breeds at younger ages.

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Im sorry but that is just not true. Dr Deb Bennett is well renowned for her research in skeletal maturity in Equines and she says:

All Horses of All Breeds Mature Skeletally at the Same Rate

Now I want to discuss the concept of skeletal maturity and deal with that concept thoroughly. Ranger is not mature, as I said, as a 2 ½ year old. This is not because Ranger is a "slow-maturing" individual or because he comes from a "slow maturing" breed. There is no such thing. Let me repeat that: no horse on earth, of any breed, at any time, is or has ever been mature before the age of six (plus or minus six months). So, for example, the Quarter Horse is not an "early maturing" breed - and neither is the Arabian a "slow maturing" breed. As far as their skeletons go, they are the same.

You will find even more very informative information about this at: http://www.equinestudies.org/knowledge_base/ranger.html

Where you can see how the equine skeleton develops.

Its such a misconception that horses mature differently dependent on their breeding and its so often used as an excuse to 'break' a horse at far too young an age.

 
I really am not keen, it seems like there would be alot of strain from working so hard in that position, for such a young horse. To me looks very unnatural and the rider sitting so far back on the horses spine, definately not something I could enjoy watching.
 
Perhaps that is true, but it is obvious that all of these breeds in question will have far different conformations & muscle development and perhaps be capable of doing different things at younger ages. Just my opinion based on observation and no real science that I am knowledgeable on

What about ligamnet and muscle developement etc.. Was this mentioned by this researcher as well? Surely that combined with the skeletal growth could be a factor

I am agreeing that horses should not be worked at 2 very heavy btw. I just think they can be ridden and trained to a degree at age 2 however.
 
Yes Jade. Different types of horse develop at different rates....hence Warmbloods are well known not to be fully mature until 6 or 7 years old and almost all QH's are ready to be lightly backed in their 2nd year...which is why they always have been backed at this age for generations.

"Dr Deb" Ph. D. - what more can I say?
 
Yes Jadewisc she does go on and say more in her full work about the muscles and cartiledges and tendons etc. and has stated that certain breeds do have 'shorter, stronger' groups of soft tissue thus making them physically stronger but that sometimes this also works against them as they learn to brace these muscles instead of using them properly.

I too think there is a certain amount of training that can be done at a younger age and certainly for what we perceive as being 'big strong' youngster often benefit from more education at a younger age. I just dont believe though that working a horse HARD or in an 'unnatural' way at such an early age is really condusive to a good strong horse at an older age.

Tia - it seems a shame that everytime I post about something you feel the need to 'ridicule' it. If you disagree then that is fine and I accept that we all have our own opinions and thats what makes the world go round. However, Dr. Deb Bennett has obviously done a lot of research into this subject and gained some standing in the equine academic circles. I have read many of her works and find them very interesting and informative. Perhaps instead of querying the validity of her work/qualifications etc you might take the time to do your own research and study.
 
Eh? Have I ever replied to you? I don't even know who you are, sorry. If I have replied at some time in the past then I'm very sorry but I honestly can't remember.
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Thanks for the advice about doing my own research.....hmmm I think I might have done that once or twice over the decades.
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Hated the video,can't understand why anyone wants a horse to look or go like that.
Do they stay sound for long?
The things human beings do to animals, its all a mystery to me
 
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Do they stay sound for long?
The things human beings do to animals, its all a mystery to me

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sorry, shouldnt be that big of a mystery to you, look at the horse in the third pic of your sig. you may think it looks amazing but it looks like an injury waiting to happen to me
 
I think Flintus's video does look very unnatural, BUT most gaited horses, in their natural state are rather beautiful.
Having said that, my vet tells me that Peruvian Pasos (as an example) have problems unique to gaited horses (apparently they tend to trip over themselves when they canter/gallop!!) But I'm sure they don't really suffer any more injuries than SJers / eventers, etc.
 
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