Terms of contract when buying shetland, not happy with...

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Field04

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I posted on here about a shetland I am looking at. I have asked if my children can try him next week, and if a couple of weeks trial was possible (15mins away from where he is now).

Yes the children can try him, but no trial period (not shocked by this). However, she they went on to say in an email that the sale will be under a contract signed by both parties (fine, all normal). Then it stated that that the contract will state that the buyer will not be able to retract from the contract after the sale. Am translating from French so hope that makes sense. Basically to me that means she expects a problem and she is making it quite clear there will be no way I can go back to her and say he is not as she said. She also mentioned getting to know his character. Is it just me or would anyone else have alam bells ringing??
 
Her words:

la vente sera faite sous contrat et sera certifié que aucune retractation de l'acheteur ne sera possible .

Translation:

sale will be made ​​under the contract and shall certify that no retraction of the buyer will be possible.
 
I am not sure what to reply to her, should I leave it or carry on and visit him. I did really like him after the first viewing.
 
It could mean she wants a clause like right of first refusal if you ever want to sell. Which afaik doesn't stand up in court anyway. I'd still go & look.
 
Sounds fairly normal and a bit like 'sold as seen'. Once he is sold, he is sold. Same as when you buy any horse or pony, caveat emptor. Go and see him, try him out in as many situations as possible and make sure he is the one for you, if you're not sure then walk on.
 
Bigginge said:
Sounds fairly normal and a bit like 'sold as seen'. Once he is sold, he is sold. Same as when you buy any horse or pony, caveat emptor. Go and see him, try him out in as many situations as possible and make sure he is the one for you, if you're not sure then walk on.
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This is what I was about to say.
 
It doesn't ring alarm bells to me. So many people think they can treat a private sale like a business sale, wanting to return things if its not how they thought it would be, including ponies. As a seller I'd be totally peed off to be expected to take back a pony that the new owners could have 'damaged' in some way (anything from catching ringworm to developing bad habits etc) not to mention the hassle of finding a yard again and going through the sale process again. If I sold a pony honestly (and let's face it, you can only describe how the pony is with you, have no way of knowing how it will behave after 2wks with someone else) then I'd not be taking it back under any circumstances.

The fact that you've asked for a trial has possibly set the sellers alarm bells ringing! Perhaps seeing you as being a potential problem buyer, who is likely to give them hassle, by not taking responsibility for settling the pony into its new home and sorting out any problems you accidentally cause by mismanagement. I'm not saying you're useless and will cause problems, but enough people do. You've only got to do a search on here to find loads of 'miss-sold pony' threads, many of which are useless people refusing to take responsibility for their mistakes.
 
Essentially, I expect, the seller is going to get you to sign a piece of paper saying 'sold as seen'. Which is fairly normal.
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
It doesn't ring alarm bells to me. So many people think they can treat a private sale like a business sale, wanting to return things if its not how they thought it would be, including ponies. As a seller I'd be totally peed off to be expected to take back a pony that the new owners could have 'damaged' in some way (anything from catching ringworm to developing bad habits etc) not to mention the hassle of finding a yard again and going through the sale process again. If I sold a pony honestly (and let's face it, you can only describe how the pony is with you, have no way of knowing how it will behave after 2wks with someone else) then I'd not be taking it back under any circumstances.

The fact that you've asked for a trial has possibly set the sellers alarm bells ringing! Perhaps seeing you as being a potential problem buyer, who is likely to give them hassle, by not taking responsibility for settling the pony into its new home and sorting out any problems you accidentally cause by mismanagement. I'm not saying you're useless and will cause problems, but enough people do. You've only got to do a search on here to find loads of 'miss-sold pony' threads, many of which are useless people refusing to take responsibility for their mistakes.
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I see your point on this, had not thought of it that way. Just sooo paranoid that they would be hiding something or lying!!!
 
I have already replied to the email, saying:

I am happy to have a contract between both parties, as I have never sold nor bought a horse without one. However, please could you explains this sentence to me as I am not sure I have fully understood.
 
There could be any problem with the pony, or none at all. You get what you buy, if you were buying a brand new car, you would expect it to be perfect, if you were buying it second hand you would not be surprised if there was wear and tear. If you like the look of the pony, buy it, if you don't then leave it there.
I should imagine the seller was hugely put off by being asked for a two week trial, when none was offered, and so is trying to make sure that you don't have the pony for two weeks and then ask for your money back.
 
Ummm yes it would ring alarm bells to me. It might be 'normal' or it might be that she is anticipating problems, at this point we don't know. I guess it depends how keen you are to progress with the purchase as to whether you accept the risk.

Have you spoken to her about your concerns. That would be my next move, preferably face-to-face so you can see her response. If she doesn't put your mind at rest with her explanation, personally I would call her bluff and say that you will need to go away and consider as the clause has made you worry. The ball is then in her court to reassure you and I presume she is keen to sell. This could risk you losing the option to buy so might not be the right approach if you have already decided you definitely want the pony.

Whichever I would proceed with caution and wouldn't ignore your concerns.
 
WandaMare said:
Ummm yes it would ring alarm bells to me. It might be 'normal' or it might be that she is anticipating problems, at this point we don't know. I guess it depends how keen you are to progress with the purchase as to whether you accept the risk.

Have you spoken to her about your concerns. That would be my next move, preferably face-to-face so you can see her response. If she doesn't put your mind at rest with her explanation, personally I would call her bluff and say that you will need to go away and consider as the clause has made you worry. The ball is then in her court to reassure you and I presume she is keen to sell. This could risk you losing the option to buy so might not be the right approach if you have already decided you definitely want the pony.

Whichever I would proceed with caution and wouldn't ignore your concerns.
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I am going to see her on Wednesdy so will talk to her about it all. I think if it lost the sale then it was never meant to be.
 
Its difficult when translating contracts (I have a fabric outlet and come across this sort of problem regularly) as it maybe that the meaning is slightly lost in translation. It looks like a slightly odd wording of 'sold as seen' which is pretty standard and would not put me off. There is no sure fire way of knowing if the shetland is 100% perfect in everyway and is never going to give you a problem as I am sure you are aware. As a buyer I would expect to beable to test this pony out in lots of situations and then make my own mind up. It is so important that these little ponys are as safe as can be with little ones and if I was a seller I would have no problem with this as I would want to make sure the pony is going to the right home.
I would be very suspicous of anyone selling a small pony who was reluctant for it to be tested out with children etc
 
YorksG said:
I should imagine the seller was hugely put off by being asked for a two week trial, when none was offered, and so is trying to make sure that you don't have the pony for two weeks and then ask for your money back.
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what on earth is so 'offput-able about a buyer asking for a 2 week trial though?
i dont see why that should flag up to a buyer that you're a potential numpty or timewaster.

a trial is not that unusual when selling especially a child's pony.
She can always just say no.
 
I'd get any known vices or illness/injury stated in the contract. Also full vet history. Then if she's lied then can be returned for full amount.

TBH I'd put this now as so many people mess around on buying.
 
lula said:
what on earth is so 'offput-able about a buyer asking for a 2 week trial though?
i dont see why that should flag up to a buyer that you're a potential numpty or timewaster.

a trial is not that unusual when selling especially a child's pony.
She can always just say no.
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It doesn't flag up the potential buyer as a numpty, but could flag them up as someone who wants to borrow a pony for two weeks! A trial may not be unusual, but was not offered, and how many times on here have we heard about loans etc going horribly wrong? What happens if the pony gets kicked while on trial, etc. As far as I can tell from the OP the seller is not limiting the number of times she can try the pony at the owners yard, so if I were the seller I would be ensuring that once it is sold, it stays that way.
 
personally I would be hearing alarm bells and would be very uncomfortable with that term, especially if taking that gamble for my children.... I would if it were me, tell the seller that yes, am happy to sign such a contract after a satisfactory 2 week trail... prior to purchase. If seller said no... I would walk, wouldn't risk my childrens safety or hearts over a possibly dodgy, poorly or dangerous pony.

Just my opinion
 
YorksG said:
It doesn't flag up the potential buyer as a numpty, but could flag them up as someone who wants to borrow a pony for two weeks! A trial may not be unusual, but was not offered, and how many times on here have we heard about loans etc going horribly wrong? What happens if the pony gets kicked while on trial, etc. As far as I can tell from the OP the seller is not limiting the number of times she can try the pony at the owners yard, so if I were the seller I would be ensuring that once it is sold, it stays that way.
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I get the sense that whilst the trial wasn't offered... neither was the pony advertised as sold as seen. Furthermore, we have all heard the term 'you dont ask, you don't get' unless the seller had specifically stated when advertising, no trials... I don't see what on earth is wrong with asking for one.
 
YorksG said:
It doesn't flag up the potential buyer as a numpty, but could flag them up as someone who wants to borrow a pony for two weeks! A trial may not be unusual, but was not offered, and how many times on here have we heard about loans etc going horribly wrong? What happens if the pony gets kicked while on trial, etc. As far as I can tell from the OP the seller is not limiting the number of times she can try the pony at the owners yard, so if I were the seller I would be ensuring that once it is sold, it stays that way.
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yes, i get your point.
its a difficult one though and i think buyers are extra cautious when its a pony for a child. sure, it could be a time waster wanting to borrow a pony for a week but just as well it could be a genuine buyer wanting to be sure.

i think in this case it very much depends on what the contract says. i wouldnt buy a pony 'sold as seen' for a child as there is no come backs if it turned out to be unsuitable/dangerous or have vices that weren't apparent on viewing or mentioned by the owner.

its very much caveat emptor really and i would be very careful when buying a child's pony.
 
I can understand buyers being cautious, but if you want a 'returns' option then you buy from a reputable dealer and pay the inflated purchase price (which covers the service you receive). It makes me cross when people want to buy privately because its the cheaper option, but then essentially they're expecting the seller to provide an after sales service as if they were a business! It's taking the mickey.

How many times on here have sellers been slated for not wanting to drive half hour or more to visit a buyer who is having problems with a pony they bought, or take it back and refund? If I was that seller, no I wouldn't want to spend my petrol and give up my spare time to provide someone with free horse riding or handling lessons. Neither would I particularly want to see the troubles they've caused for my beloved and reluctantly sold pet. I most definitely wouldn't want to basically buy the pony back for a price its no longer worth, just so I can reschool it at my expense, to sell on again.

I would never let a pony to on trial. I was on a yard with someone who took two ponies on trial for a month, whilst only wanting to buy one. So they knew from the beginning they'd be messing at least one seller about. The sellers had to trust a stranger with their horses care, incurred transport costs, wasted time, and for what? So the potential buyer could send them both back. One for a pre-existing condition that they knew about before starting the trial, so if they'd gone away and thought it through they'd have come to the conclusion they didn't want to buy and wouldn't have needed a trial in the first place. The other sent back for being too young and green, again this could have been established at viewing, making a trial unnecessary. Someone else took a horse on which at some point had gone lame, rode it once unsupervised before taking it on trial, so it may have arrived lame. Nobody knows because the novice trialler didn't realise it was lame and rode it daily for a week. Then had lesson, where instructor picked up on lameness. Horse was sent back as unsuitable. They didn't tell the owners it was lame for fear of the owners asking for vet money. People like this are everywhere.
 
YorksG said:
It doesn't flag up the potential buyer as a numpty, but could flag them up as someone who wants to borrow a pony for two weeks! A trial may not be unusual, but was not offered, and how many times on here have we heard about loans etc going horribly wrong? What happens if the pony gets kicked while on trial, etc. As far as I can tell from the OP the seller is not limiting the number of times she can try the pony at the owners yard, so if I were the seller I would be ensuring that once it is sold, it stays that way.
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I must agree with YorksG - a family round here, always wants to lwvb just before pony club camp..... pony never works out.... always told by the pony club instructor that she isnt quite ready for that one.... funny that after she has spent a week at camp with said pony.
 
Seller sounds reasonable to me. I don't do LWVTB having had a horse injured while on trail. If the seller means sold as seen, then, that's pretty standard, the buyer just needs to ensure the pony is right before uprooting it to a new home.

Any vices or undisclosed history making it dangerous for a child would not be affected by this if the contract states it has no vices and is suitable for a childs ridden pony.
 
I think it sounds like a standard thing - to stop people trying to claim something after a sale. A sort of 'sold as seen'. I don't see that as wrong or a problem - look how many folk come on here stating they have a had the horse 2 weeks and they are not happy etc etc. I would say the seller is just protecting herself. I would try it out a few times before I bought to satisfy myself.
 
Agree with sugar-and-spice.

The thing about his character, if you know shetlands you know they have lots of character, maybe this one has quite a bit and seller wants you to be aware of that and get to know the pony before running away thinking it has problems.
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
I can understand buyers being cautious, but if you want a 'returns' option then you buy from a reputable dealer and pay the inflated purchase price (which covers the service you receive). It makes me cross when people want to buy privately because its the cheaper option, but then essentially they're expecting the seller to provide an after sales service as if they were a business! It's taking the mickey.

How many times on here have sellers been slated for not wanting to drive half hour or more to visit a buyer who is having problems with a pony they bought, or take it back and refund? If I was that seller, no I wouldn't want to spend my petrol and give up my spare time to provide someone with free horse riding or handling lessons. Neither would I particularly want to see the troubles they've caused for my beloved and reluctantly sold pet. I most definitely wouldn't want to basically buy the pony back for a price its no longer worth, just so I can reschool it at my expense, to sell on again.

I would never let a pony to on trial. I was on a yard with someone who took two ponies on trial for a month, whilst only wanting to buy one. So they knew from the beginning they'd be messing at least one seller about. The sellers had to trust a stranger with their horses care, incurred transport costs, wasted time, and for what? So the potential buyer could send them both back. One for a pre-existing condition that they knew about before starting the trial, so if they'd gone away and thought it through they'd have come to the conclusion they didn't want to buy and wouldn't have needed a trial in the first place. The other sent back for being too young and green, again this could have been established at viewing, making a trial unnecessary. Someone else took a horse on which at some point had gone lame, rode it once unsupervised before taking it on trial, so it may have arrived lame. Nobody knows because the novice trialler didn't realise it was lame and rode it daily for a week. Then had lesson, where instructor picked up on lameness. Horse was sent back as unsuitable. They didn't tell the owners it was lame for fear of the owners asking for vet money. People like this are everywhere.
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I have never ever viewed private sales as a cheaper option, but if I really thought I had bought a horse from either a private or a trade seller that was not as it should be, either dangerous or with some undisclosed preexisting condition that made it unridable, and it had been mis advertised/missold to me, i would not expect the sale to stand unless i had specifically bought 'sold as seen'/ 'sold from field'
 
Right a real mixed bag of opinions, but really interesting reading them. However, each time I read one I think 'yeah I can see that point', then I read another with the opposite opinion and I it changes my mind again.

I completely understand why people would be nervous of letting a horse or pony on trial, you never know what will happen. I only think I am reasonable because I know I am honest.

I know shetlands can have characters and have already discussed this with her. I think it is a little bit scary because it is for my children. The pony is 16, so could have been worn into the ground. But this is where a vetting woudl be a good idea. It is a risk and its just weighing up the options to see which way I want to go. I am not under any pressure to buy the pony, and have accepted the way she would like the sale to go if I go ahead with it. I just wondered if others with more experience woudl find this normal or not. And need to decide if I want to go ahead on her terms or walk away. I am going to see her on Wednesday with my children and spend some time with the pony and see how I feel after that. Maybe see if I could do one or two more viewings with them.

I have only ever bought two horses before, both for me. Once from a dealer who gave me a trial, I went ahead and bought this horse, but a couple of years of tears later realised he wasn't right. I then bought my pony without a trial privately, who is a right pain in the backside but I wouldn't change her for the world. So you just never know. These things always have a risk involved but is sometimes helps to see what others think.

However, I am not a time waster and did not want to take a pony on trial to use it for a bit and give it back!!!!!
 
In English law, I believe in a private sale the only rights you truly have are that the item just has to match the description (verbal or written). And if miss-sold in this way you have recourse under the law, irresepctive of any 'sold as seen' statements. This is fairly straightforward for factual issues, ie height, age etc. So if you buy an advertised 8 yr old and it turns out it's 10, then you have a claim, even if you signed a sold as seen contract. No idea if the same is true in France.

The problem comes of course in proving what was said, and that the problem existed prior to you buying the pony, or in accepting them saying "IMO the horse is suitable for a novice". Their opinion is just that, not provable fact?

It's worth taking someone with you for back up, as you can ask questions and however the seller decribes the horse in factual terms must be true. If they'd decline to answer a question you know there's a potential problem.
 
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