Thank goodness for the Sloughi......

[MurphysMinder]

M_M, staggered, but I stand corrected for which I thank you. I'm equally staggered that, specifically with the males, that any judge would place a less than masculine dog above his entire brother. Breed standards would surely be at risk, I'd have thought.

Alec.

As I said it is probably only in rare breeds that a castrated dog would be placed over an entire, but if an exhibitor has proof the dog had previously been entire , and was a better specimen , why not. I honestly have seen plenty of castrated males who you wouldn't have known without peering under their tail, and I have seen plenty of effeminate entire males.

 

[Alec Swan]

.......

The ex-racing greyhound gallops every single day, just in an enclosed paddock or a number of selected sites where his owner considers it safe to do so. Similar to my own dogs who, unlike the greyhound, are never off lead in an unenclosed space. I await the RSPCA inspectors.

....... !

So if you never allow your dogs freedom, but looking at your sig I'm assuming that they have some other outlet for their energy build up, how do you suppose that those 2-3-4 year old greyhounds, out of training, and in their prime of life, manage to spend the energy which they store up, and in between walks, and when 'walks' are all that they will ever have?

Can you, or anyone for that matter, with any degree of honesty, condone the keeping of dogs which are bred for a specific purpose, and in the case of the greyhound, that's to gallop, and to deny them their inborn instincts?

The greyhound which you mention, is fortunate, the bulk of the other 'rescues', aren't. For the less than fortunate, they are condemned to a life in prison.

Alec.

 

[GinaB]

You do realise that the point of the dietary companies is to make money? Of course they're going to spin lines! The only thing that distinguishes my spayed schnauzer is she is one of the unfortunate ones that lost muscle tone in that area so it is softer looking, but when she was fit, the rest of her was solid muscle. Currently, she has lost a lot of the muscle tone due to her cruciate injury so is unable to walk long distances.

My mongrel is lean and fit looking too so you'd be hard pushed to tell she's spayed unless you look for the scar.

 

[GinaB]

I was under the impression that greyhounds only like a short burst of speed and are generally quite laid back the rest of the time? We need Leverier back to confirm!

 

[blackcob]

I can't possibly speak for all greyhound owners but a good number of them appear to, rather like most sibe owners, seek out opportunities for safely exercising them. There are hound meets locally that hire enclosed paddocks or indoor arenas and still more do let their dogs off lead, albeit often muzzled and with more care than most to avoid livestock.

In my admittedly limited experience most greyhounds would not consider a life of sofas and sleeping a prison anyway.

The dog in my sig is wearing a lead - a 50ft one! - and I've spent some time and money dog-proofing the horse paddocks so they have free running most days. One of them trains several times a week in dog agility (enclosed arena or paddock only) and twice a week from October to March we do this:

...but on our basic daily walks they are on a lead, always.

Incidentally a greyhound did very well in the bikejor at this same rally, I will try and find the picture.

 

[Alec Swan]

I was under the impression that greyhounds only like a short burst of speed and are generally quite laid back the rest of the time? We need Leverier back to confirm!

Deny the Greyhound, or the Thoroughbred horse, it's bred for purpose, or any dog for that matter, and you will deny the dog its existence.

'Short bursts' as you put it, can and often are explained as complete expenditures of energy, and over anything from 200 to 1000 yards. The dog is generally prepared for this and its stamina levels built up accordingly. Deny them that facility, and that is cruelty. No, I accept that they don't complain, and that's the reason why we need the ability to see beyond what's immediately obvious.

Alec.

 

[Dobiegirl]

Levrier said "one judge" and was referring to a close family member I think. Yes the staffy caused a huge controversy with many of the other exhibitors putting in an official complaint but I don't think anything was done about it.

Thank you MM, apologies Levrier I did your family member a disservice.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Thank goodness for the Sloughi......

because I have never seen so many fat, unfit hounds as there were in the hound group at Crufts last night! They looked appalling, it makes me so sad to see them in such poor condition

I suppose it is the same in the horse showing world, but show people need to recognise what their animals are actually bred for - the greyhound was awful, whatever happened to seeing the outline of 3 vertebrae and a couple of ribs like you are supposed to? My lot look skeletal by comparison

Rant over, I shall now get off my soapbox.....

Another god reason for why sensible dog owners buys dogs with inbuilt fluff. Fluffy dogs looks cuddly without being fat, and beneath the fluff they can be as fit as a fiddle.


Did you see any Finnish Lapphunds at Crufts? (Photo found through Google image search, it's from Crufts 2009, and his name is Infindigo Pikkukarhu)

Funny to hear about your BF, becoming alarmed over seeing judges doing the testicle check . Over here it is obligatory for show judges to check that male dogs have two testicles. From ringside I've watched many male dogs being judged, and at least some judges seems to have gotten it into a routine, take a little look, feel around a little bit, and then end with a quick, gentle squeeze under the tail.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

This is exactly the reason why I won't watch Crufts.

On a side note as well as Alec mentioned it, I hate the fact people blame spaying on their dog getting fat and those using it for a reason not to neuter. Load of crap. YOU made it fat by not feeding it correctly and not exercising it sufficiently.

I disagree with you GinaB, about that it should only be a myth about spaying sometimes being responsible for weight gain. This far, I've had 3 bitches spayed, both of the 2 first bitches, gained weight after spaying. Before and after the operation, they got the same amount of food, and the same amount of exercise, and still, their ribs just disappeared under a layer of fat, the only thing that had changed was the spaying. I had to put them on a strict diet, to make the fat go away. With the third one, I didn't take any chances, as soon as she had recovered, I put her on a diet, and yet she didn't lose any weight, but at least she didn't gain anything either.

For those that have had/has spayed bitches/castrated dogs that haven't gained weight, it might seem like a myth, but I certainly did NOT made my bitches fat by not feeding them correctly and not exercising them sufficiently. I did the same that had kept them fit as fiddles for several years, before the spaying.

 

[Pamfyson]

This is exactly the reason why I won't watch Crufts.

On a side note as well as Alec mentioned it, I hate the fact people blame spaying on their dog getting fat and those using it for a reason not to neuter. Load of crap. YOU made it fat by not feeding it correctly and not exercising it sufficiently.

This. All my dogs have been neutered and none have been fat. Exercise and feeding the correct amount and easy on the treats. Easy really, oh that I could apply it to myself more!

 

[Alec Swan]

..... There are hound meets locally that hire enclosed paddocks or indoor arenas and still more do let their dogs off lead, albeit often muzzled and with more care than most to avoid livestock.

........

b_c, you of all people will understand that it isn't actually a case of simple exercise, as that's what they do when we let them out first thing in the morning, but it's a case of occupying the dog's mind. Greyhounds, as sled dogs, may appear to run about in ever decreasing circles, whilst barking at the moon, but the truth is that they don't, do they? The truth is that they need to have a facility to focus, just as the rest of us do.

Alec.

 

[Cyrus]

UK sibes are currently taking a slagging from some US show breeders on FB for being, among other things, far too thin. The US example given could easily be mistaken for a malamute.

Yep mini malamutes fully agree

Was also chuckling at them telling the owner of a Yukon quest team owner who's dogs have covered over 1000's of miles in harness in -40 conditions that their type of sibe is incorrect and because their delightful fluffy bundles have ran about in a few inches of snow for a few hours each winter they are true type sibes....the mind boggles

 

[blackcob]

Don't forget that piebalds are ugly mongrels. Maybe if I blowdried and backcombed him he'd be more acceptable...

 

[Annette4]

Incidentally a greyhound did very well in the bikejor at this same rally, I will try and find the picture.

Someone in my canicross club does Bikejor (and canicross) with their 3 greyhounds.

 

[twiggy2]

a speyed or castrated animal does need less calories than an entire one, the body producing hormones uses calories as does the constant alertness required to keep your territory/to find a mate.
scientific study has proven a neutered animal requires approx 20% less calories than the same animal with the same lifestyle un neutered.

Alec for me my lurcher (very high energy/drive running/hunting dog) is off lead daily, comes to work with me-meets lots of people and if she is getting plenty of walking (3hrs per day) she actually stops flying past your ears/wiping you out as she becomes more focused on the pack (me) and stays with me.

I stopped showing horses years ago due to them all being required to be obese and would never show pedigree dogs for the same reason-terrier and lurcher shows are so refreshing-the dog has to be capable of doing the job it was intended for to be in with a chance of being placed-lame dogs are unplaced but they also allow dogs with superficial injuries to be entered (at judges discretion), they are working dogs and as long as the injury/wound does not affect/prevent work then they will over look it. most judges will judge a castrated dog but not all and often they don't fair as well as they do not always carry as much muscle tone-the lack of testosterone makes it harder to get the dogs looking as toned but not impossible.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

I was under the impression that greyhounds only like a short burst of speed and are generally quite laid back the rest of the time? We need Leverier back to confirm!

I can't possibly speak for all greyhound owners but a good number of them appear to, rather like most sibe owners, seek out opportunities for safely exercising them. There are hound meets locally that hire enclosed paddocks or indoor arenas and still more do let their dogs off lead, albeit often muzzled and with more care than most to avoid livestock.

In my admittedly limited experience most greyhounds would not consider a life of sofas and sleeping a prison anyway.
...

I think that I've read somewhere that Lévrier once put up a camera so that she could see what her dogs did all day when she was away at work, and the result was a film with sleeping Greyhounds. I presume that there is exceptions, but in general, I would describe the Greyhounds that I've met and heard about, as that they need/enjoy a daily run while they're outdoors on walks, but indoors they're "couch potatoes".


Copied from this site http://www.greyrescue.info/?q=node/1806:

(QUOTE)

Greyhounds call themselves “lean, super-efficient sleep machines.” Sleeping greyhounds spend many years perfecting their techniques. Here is a sampling of some of their better-known positions.

1) The Bed Hog. This position is fun when you share the bed with one or both of your owners. Maneuver yourself between them. Lie down on your side and slowly begin to stretch out. If this is done correctly, you should have at least half of the bed space to yourself. Give yourself extra points for the following: if you can insert a paw into your owner’s mouth; if you can prevent your owner from getting out of bed quickly; or if your owner wakes up with a stiff back.

2) The Dead Cockroach. Find the softest spot in the house, (the family couch or a bed is the best.) fall asleep, and eventually maneuver yourself on your back with all four legs in a bent position.

3) The Flagpole. Assume the dead cockroach position. Extend your legs stiffly into the air. Your owner may feel compelled to hang a small flag on one or more of your legs.

4) The Flamingo. Assume the dead cockroach position. Extend only one leg in the air. If you are doing this position correctly, the front half of your body will resemble the tacky plastic ornament in your owner’s garden.

5) The Donut. This position must be assumed only when there is no other available position. It usually means there is nowhere in the house to lie down with the exception of a small club chair. Place your front feet on the chair. Bring your back legs up carefully. Drop your nose. Your body should be in a u-shape. Now fold yourself into the chair. Lay down. You can either tuck your nose into your folded legs or extend your front feet and use them as a headrest. This position will get your owner’s attention especially when you unfold yourself and get up from the chair. It is so amazing that such a “big dog” could get himself in such a tiny spot.

6) The Classic- Fall asleep on your side. You can add variety by dreaming. Wag your tail, run in place, and vocalize. This will really get your owner’s attention.(/QUOTE)




Though, I don't think that the positions described above, is only used by Greyhounds...

 

[twiggy2]

I think that I've read somewhere that Lévrier once put up a camera so that she could see what her dogs did all day when she was away at work, and the result was a film with sleeping Greyhounds. I presume that there is exceptions, but in general, I would describe the Greyhounds that I've met and heard about, as that they need/enjoy a daily run while they're outdoors on walks, but indoors they're "couch potatoes".


Copied from this site http://www.greyrescue.info/?q=node/1806:

(QUOTE)

Greyhounds call themselves “lean, super-efficient sleep machines.” Sleeping greyhounds spend many years perfecting their techniques. Here is a sampling of some of their better-known positions.

1) The Bed Hog. This position is fun when you share the bed with one or both of your owners. Maneuver yourself between them. Lie down on your side and slowly begin to stretch out. If this is done correctly, you should have at least half of the bed space to yourself. Give yourself extra points for the following: if you can insert a paw into your owner’s mouth; if you can prevent your owner from getting out of bed quickly; or if your owner wakes up with a stiff back.

2) The Dead Cockroach. Find the softest spot in the house, (the family couch or a bed is the best.) fall asleep, and eventually maneuver yourself on your back with all four legs in a bent position.

3) The Flagpole. Assume the dead cockroach position. Extend your legs stiffly into the air. Your owner may feel compelled to hang a small flag on one or more of your legs.

4) The Flamingo. Assume the dead cockroach position. Extend only one leg in the air. If you are doing this position correctly, the front half of your body will resemble the tacky plastic ornament in your owner’s garden.

5) The Donut. This position must be assumed only when there is no other available position. It usually means there is nowhere in the house to lie down with the exception of a small club chair. Place your front feet on the chair. Bring your back legs up carefully. Drop your nose. Your body should be in a u-shape. Now fold yourself into the chair. Lay down. You can either tuck your nose into your folded legs or extend your front feet and use them as a headrest. This position will get your owner’s attention especially when you unfold yourself and get up from the chair. It is so amazing that such a “big dog” could get himself in such a tiny spot.

6) The Classic- Fall asleep on your side. You can add variety by dreaming. Wag your tail, run in place, and vocalize. This will really get your owner’s attention.(/QUOTE)




Though, I don't think that the positions described above, is only used by Greyhounds...

describes my lurcher to a T

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Neutered dogs are not banned from the show ring Alec. You just have to write to the KC asking for permission and in the case of males have a letter from your vet saying that the dog had 2 normally decended testicles before castration. I have shown and one with a spayed bitch. A dog is more likely to be penalised against an entire dog but in numerically small breeds plenty do win and I suspect some were at Crufts.
I would consider my bitches are indistinguishable from entire bitches, unless you look very closely at their bits.

a speyed or castrated animal does need less calories than an entire one, the body producing hormones uses calories as does the constant alertness required to keep your territory/to find a mate.
scientific study has proven a neutered animal requires approx 20% less calories than the same animal with the same lifestyle un neutered.

Alec for me my lurcher (very high energy/drive running/hunting dog) is off lead daily, comes to work with me-meets lots of people and if she is getting plenty of walking (3hrs per day) she actually stops flying past your ears/wiping you out as she becomes more focused on the pack (me) and stays with me.

I stopped showing horses years ago due to them all being required to be obese and would never show pedigree dogs for the same reason-terrier and lurcher shows are so refreshing-the dog has to be capable of doing the job it was intended for to be in with a chance of being placed-lame dogs are unplaced but they also allow dogs with superficial injuries to be entered (at judges discretion), they are working dogs and as long as the injury/wound does not affect/prevent work then they will over look it. most judges will judge a castrated dog but not all and often they don't fair as well as they do not always carry as much muscle tone-the lack of testosterone makes it harder to get the dogs looking as toned but not impossible.

About that "a neutered animal requires approx 20% less calories", I'm sure that there is individual differences, and I presume that the study found the same, since the word approximately is used.

About showing neutered dogs, I think it sounds as if e.g. some owners with a castrated male dog, could be tempted to try to take shortcuts to compensate for the lack testosterone (= doping) .
Personally, I think that it would be much better if entire and castrated dogs competed in separate classes. If cat shows can have separate classes for fertile and neutered cats, why would it be impossible for dog shows to do the same?
However, I'm not sure about if I think that bitches needs to have separate classes too. I'm not sure that they're as visibly affected by the lack of hormones as a male dog can be, and e.g. (in Sweden) a veteran bitch is too old to breed from anyway, so from that viewpoint, it doesn't matter if a veteran bitch is spayed or not.

But regardless if they're neutered or not, I completely agree with that e.g. an excellent example of a Greyhound in show condition, should not be overweight. I know that not everyone thinks that dog showing seems sensible, but I think it sounds absurd for dog shows to give awards to dogs who isn't in a fit condition. However, if/when it happens, I'm not sure about why it happens?
Could it be that so many dogs are shown overweight, that the judges becomes used to that that is the correct condition? Could it be because the judges aren't properly educated about what the signs of a fit condition is? Could it be that when they compare a dog to the breed standard, they value other faults as worse, than if the dog is in a fit condition or overweight?
Since I know that there is persons, which isn't dog judges, who thinks that overweight = not hungry = more happy than someone in a fit condition, could it be that there is also some dog judges, who perhaps unconsciously thinks the same, and thereby favours dogs that is overweight? Maybe it is caused by other reasons, or perhaps it is caused by a combination of reasons, either way, I think it is wrong and sad to hear about overweight dogs who is getting awards at dog shows.

 

[samlf]

This- it's the judges, not the breeders/owners, who need to change.

Sorry but I disagree, if you own an animal you are responsible for its wellbeing, being peer pressured is no excuse!!

 

[Aru]

Spaying or neutering your dog does not make them fat. However feeding you 4 year old mature lazy lab the exact same as you fed it as a year old growing youngster will.Many dogs are neutered at an age when they are becoming more mature and calmer and so are expending less calories.Feeding your dog to many calories and not exercising them enough will cause them to get fat .
Neutered dogs apparently can have a lower metabolic rate than entire dogs,understandable enough considering you have removed major hormone producing organs and therefore generally do require less calories per day....but most of the time weight gain can be put down to overfeeding and underexercising.

 

[{97702}]

Good grief this has taken off somewhat hasn't it

Just to clarify a couple of points, yes my mother judged cavalier king charles spaniels at Crufts last year and hence I know she did not put up any overweight, unsound dogs as she cares about the health and welfare of her dogs and the breed in general And yes, all four of my greyhounds are neutered (in fact all my dogs have been for the past 12 years as they have been rescues) and none of my dogs has EVER been fat.

Greyhounds are speed merchants but in my experience they can take as much or as little exercise as you offer them - they can walk for miles given the chance FL is quite correct that I have also filmed them sleeping all day, that is what I absolutely love about the breed, they are so laid back at home and have a fantastic time out on a walk

 

[{97702}]

Thank you MM, apologies Levrier I did your family member a disservice.

Absolutely no need at all to apologise DG, I shouldn't have been so cryptic

 

[Alec Swan]

Spaying or neutering your dog does not make them fat. However feeding you 4 year old mature lazy lab the exact same as you fed it as a year old growing youngster will.Many dogs are neutered at an age when they are becoming more mature and calmer and so are expending less calories.Feeding your dog to many calories and not exercising them enough will cause them to get fat .
Neutered dogs apparently can have a lower metabolic rate than entire dogs,understandable enough considering you have removed major hormone producing organs and therefore generally do require less calories per day....but most of the time weight gain can be put down to overfeeding and underexercising.

Interesting, but that doesn't actually address the problem. Neutered dogs generally put on weight, we know that. Now I know that it doesn't happen with those dogs owned by anyone on this forum, apparently, but for lesser mortals, the act of neutering often brings about an often immediate and rapid gain of weight.

I'm also aware that neutered dogs need less feed and more exercise, according to the experts, but can you, or anyone else explain to me why the act of neutering should have such an effect? Furthermore, would I be right in asking, 'Does the act of neutering alter a dog's metabolism'?

Alec.

 

[Clodagh]

Our working lab bitch has not put on weight since being spayed at 14 months. She walks miles and miles a day though. I would say she has got heavier around the shoulders now (but she is now 7) but the worst thing is her coat is not nearly as nice as her sisters, who are all unspayed. Still, as she lives in the house and I can't be doing with blood everywhere every 6 months, so it is a fair trade to me!

 

[ester]

I'm also aware that neutered dogs need less feed and more exercise, according to the experts, but can you, or anyone else explain to me why the act of neutering should have such an effect? Furthermore, would I be right in asking, 'Does the act of neutering alter a dog's metabolism'?

Alec.

Of course it does - they have fewer bodily processes going on.

That doesn't mean that it makes them fat though, just that they need feeding less surely?