That one livery who's the bad egg

holeymoley

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This is more a rant than anything else, purely to get it off my chest as it's really been bringing me down so thanks to anyone who takes the time to read or comment.

We've all came across one. Unfortunately out of a livery yard of 30 (where miraculously everyone gets on) we now have ours who has appeared in the last few months. Short of being irritating but not directly, I tend to just let them get on with things and go with the flow. Until now. Where they now effect me.

Basically in the shortest description possible, they are novices and they've bought a rather large youngster. Every week has been a problem with one thing or another, either with the horse or with something on the yard. I say 'they' as it is a couple who have bought him and share ownership. It has been everything from being unable to mount- so they need to buy a new mounting block, horse is a headshaker (??) so they buy different reins, horse is 'strong' - they put in dutch gag, 2 lessons each per week- instructor told them to sell- fall out with instructor and go through another 2 in the meantime, horse is sour in school - then feed horse high sugar feeds.... etc etc the list goes on. I'm all for helping and guiding if necessary but they think they know it all. They have upset everyone individually for one reason or another, little things like emptying their water bucket outside the stable when its to be freezing temperatures to taking up more space than allocated.

So let them be, like I say they've not annoyed me directly, until now. They have sprung that the horse is now moving into the field with our very settled geldings who all get on. So that he can PLAY....o_O as he's not getting a chance to play in the current herd... (herd consists of mixed oldies and youngsters). Horse is known to chase the older ones of his old herd and double barrel, he's also bargy and drags if being lead.... so brilliant! I have expressed my concerns to the yard owner as half of our guys are older and tend to just want a quieter life grazing. The response was that he's not been known to be aggressive however I've heard from others that he has been. A lot of the others have expressed concerns too. I'm just wary of a repeat which happened at my last yard, a larger sports horse type came into to the herd and picked on the older ones at the bottom of the herd to the point that mine went lame with concussive laminitis as he'd been chased around and bitten for hours at a time. In the end up it was mine who got moved out the herd to a field on his own as sport horse owners claimed their horse couldn't 'socialise' or 'play' with the others when he got moved out initially.

I honestly can't go another year of that. I'll be dammed if it happens again, more so because of the ridiculous reason they gave for wanting it moved. I totally despair. One way or the other mine will get penalised as he'll either have to move field or he'll have to stay in. I refuse to move- this yard has been perfect for me and my guy in every way.

Why is it that one person can ruin so much :(
 

pippixox

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I really feel for you. Frankly they sounds like idiots who are overhorsed and much worse- will not listen to any advice.

I would just keep your fingers crossed it actually settles in your field. You never know: I took on two young new forests a few years ago who were terrible in my friends herd of a mixture of ages- really irritated her oldies. But they settled brilliantly with my two older horses and never caused trouble. Dynamics are hard to predict sometimes

However... if it does cause problems you must stand up for your horse (and presumably other liveries would compain too?) as a new arrival causing problems should not be put above your horses happiness
 

ihatework

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I get your concerns, but when someone is as clueless and as annoying as they sound it is easy to just lump everything they do as ‘wrong’, often based on here say.

You are in a yard with herd turnout and therefore you are bound to encounter new horses being introduced. That in itself is not unreasonabke. Why not ask for a period of introduction over a fence and then when the horse is integrated the hind shoes removed.

Alternatively, could you put your horse in with the herd the youngster is leaving if it worries you that much?
 

holeymoley

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I really feel for you. Frankly they sounds like idiots who are overhorsed and much worse- will not listen to any advice.

I would just keep your fingers crossed it actually settles in your field. You never know: I took on two young new forests a few years ago who were terrible in my friends herd of a mixture of ages- really irritated her oldies. But they settled brilliantly with my two older horses and never caused trouble. Dynamics are hard to predict sometimes

However... if it does cause problems you must stand up for your horse (and presumably other liveries would compain too?) as a new arrival causing problems should not be put above your horses happiness
I get your concerns, but when someone is as clueless and as annoying as they sound it is easy to just lump everything they do as ‘wrong’, often based on here say.

You are in a yard with herd turnout and therefore you are bound to encounter new horses being introduced. That in itself is not unreasonabke. Why not ask for a period of introduction over a fence and then when the horse is integrated the hind shoes removed.

Alternatively, could you put your horse in with the herd the youngster is leaving if it worries you that much?

Thank you. I do hope it does settle. I feel if it does then next week there will be another problem created, probably with turning out/bring in or something! We have had 2 or 3 others introduced over the summer and they've all got on well, I know everytime is a bit daunting, my guy will more so stay out the way and eat which is a bonus unless he gets targeted. They have already been suggested to about getting the back shoes removed but won't do so. That is one of my options is to put mine in with the herd that its left.
 

tristar

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i think you totally right to be very concerned, its happened before, this is how we learn, don`t let it happen again, i`ve met people like this and trying to deal with them is frustrating, yes they do know something but lack the experience to see in advance what may happen and how it will affect others, it is important because this is your horse and you care very much about safety and want to avoid injuries.
 

zaminda

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What do the others who share your field think? If you all went to the yard owner together with your concerns it might hold more weight. I'm very glad the only herd mine live with are mine, as I find so many peoples horses rude to deal with, and just can't be doing with it any more.
 

holeymoley

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What do the others who share your field think? If you all went to the yard owner together with your concerns it might hold more weight. I'm very glad the only herd mine live with are mine, as I find so many peoples horses rude to deal with, and just can't be doing with it any more.
A few of the other liveries did who are quite young but unfortunately got told that they were acting like its a playground (?!) I have just heard that via messages, not first hand. I'd be a bit disheartened if that was the case as at the end of the day we are all paying customers and clearly given the amount of people with concerns, it's for a reasonable reason.
 

JFTD

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I found myself in a fairly similar situation not all that long ago, OP - except I was on a very small yard, with a complete idiot novice. She expected free help (until I made it very clear that wasn't happening), to borrow, or rather just take, stuff, and generally be a nuisance, because "she was new to owning horses". I'm all for supporting new owners, but buying a horse when you don't know what hay is, or how to put on a rug is unacceptable in my opinion. She let her (feral, badly behaved) children in the fields with the horse (I saw her two year old taking feed from its bucket while it was eating loose in the field, she was on the other side of the field). The horse spent its life breaking onto the yard, stealing my haylage (and her hay - she then accused me of using it to the YO!), and generally being a bloody nuisance, because it was bored, and apparently putting up a stand of electric fencing to stop it was beyond her. It was ludicrous - so I left, and I don't regret it for a second. At least you're on a big yard, so the effects will be diluted a bit!
 
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Perhaps say to them that if your horse is injured by their horse "playing" then they will be liable for the vets fees especially as they have refused to remove it's hind shoes. Put it in writing so the whole yard knows, you might manage to embarrass them into being a bit more considerate.
Was once on a yard where a total novice rocked up with a pony colt insisted it went out in the gelding herd. The colt decided to take on a 17'2" gelding who was rather dominant, it did not end well and the colt did not win. We were all very unhappy about the colt being on the yard as the owner had not a clue and treated it as a pet so it was mannerless, bargy, nippy and generally nasty. The owner thought she knew it all and was herself mannerless and quite nasty if didn't have her own way. I was glad to leave...........both the yard and our cottage as we had bought a derelict small holding so I became my own YO of my horses.
 

holeymoley

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I found myself in a fairly similar situation not all that long ago, OP - except I was on a very small yard, with a complete idiot novice. She expected free help (until I made it very clear that wasn't happening), to borrow, or rather just take, stuff, and generally be a nuisance, because "she was new to owning horses". I'm all for supporting new owners, but buying a horse when you don't know what hay is, or how to put on a rug is unacceptable in my opinion. She let her (feral, badly behaved) children in the fields with the horse (I saw her two year old taking feed from its bucket while it was eating loose in the field, she was on the other side of the field). The horse spent its life breaking onto the yard, stealing my haylage (and her hay - she then accused me of using it to the YO!), and generally being a bloody nuisance, because it was bored, and apparently putting up a stand of electric fencing to stop it was beyond her. It was ludicrous - so I left, and I don't regret it for a second. At least you're on a big yard, so the effects will be diluted a bit!
That sounds awful. She doesn't have kids, I think she treats the horse as one though. They don't seem to take anything, they definitely don't come across as being short of a few bob or two, its much more the opposite they buy in excess and take over the storage areas.
 

JFTD

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This one wasn't short of money either - just lazy. If their whip was a few feet away and mine was closer, they'd just take it. If they wanted a fork and theirs was on the other side of the yard... I wouldn't have minded that so much, but they never put things back, and half the time they weren't there when I needed them.

The world is full of halfwits. And actually, there's a 4 letter word I'd like to use instead of half there, really.
 

zaminda

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I would say something, and it is not being childish especially if your horse has been injured due to being chased before! I would second telling them they will be responsible for vets fees, although as this is a yard with herd turnout it is more difficult, as accidents happen and it is something you have to accept to a certain extent.
 

Pearlsasinger

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I don't get this! It is YO's responsibility to ensure the safety of every horse on the yard, so if she has agreed to this horse swapping yards, she should make it a condition of doing so that every horse in the new field has its back shoes removed to avoid kick injuries. I can never understand why some YOs allow one livery to inconvenience everybody else on the yard, even more so on a big yard like that.
 

SusieT

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sorry- you are on herd turnout. New horses will get added in, it is up to your yard to have a sensible introduction policy. If you need to control the group your horse is out with I'm afraid you will have to buy your own yard. Unless it is known to be thoroughly aggressive then there is no reason this horse will be any more dangerous tahn another - it's just a horse!
 

PeterNatt

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I am sorry to hear of the situation you find yourself in.
Your yard owner has a duty of care to you and your horses. If you are all concerned about this horse you should put this in writing to your yard owner and advise them that in the event of your horse(s) being injured or even worse having to be put down as a result of this horse that you will be making a claim from your yard owner as they have been negligent in protecting your interests.
I have seen too many horses suffering from life long injuries or being put down as a result of similar situations.
In addition it is quite clear that these people should not own a youngster and I would ask your local BHS Welfare Officer to have a chat with them. BHS H.Q. will be able to provide you with your local BHS Welfare Officers Contact details.
 
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Separate the two issues. The poor field behaviour may be influenced by poor management but it is not a direct consequence. Some horses are just bullies in the field, even with the best owner in the world.

You could leave the yard but will you leave every time a horse you don't like joins the yard? If you want to dictate which horses in which field then you need your own land.

I don't mean to sound harsh but on a livery yard you need to work with and trust the YO. If you don't you should move yard. If you want to discuss concerns about field behaviour then limit it to that and don't include concerns about the owners (one fixable problem at a time).
 
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Nothing's happened yet. It's previously been turned out with older ones and youngsters so you may just find that one of the horses in the herd your horse is out with, will just put it in its place. It sounds a bit boisterous but this doesn't mean aggressive, although some may view it that way. IMO you've taken a dislike to this couple and no matter what they do it'll annoy you, the things you mention like taking up a bit too much space, buying some new reins, and a different mounting block - so what?
 
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Nothing's happened yet. It's previously been turned out with older ones and youngsters so you may just find that one of the horses in the herd your horse is out with, will just put it in its place. It sounds a bit boisterous but this doesn't mean aggressive, although some may view it that way. IMO you've taken a dislike to this couple and no matter what they do it'll annoy you, the things you mention like taking up a bit too much space, buying some new reins, and a different mounting block - so what?

I was trying to show the lack of experience from them, new reins won’t fix a true headshaker or bit of headshaking, a new mounting block won’t help mounting if it doesn’t get taught to stand and taking up all the space is a sheer lack of respect for everyone else.
 

Red-1

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Nothing's happened yet. It's previously been turned out with older ones and youngsters so you may just find that one of the horses in the herd your horse is out with, will just put it in its place. It sounds a bit boisterous but this doesn't mean aggressive, although some may view it that way. IMO you've taken a dislike to this couple and no matter what they do it'll annoy you, the things you mention like taking up a bit too much space, buying some new reins, and a different mounting block - so what?
I agree with this. TBH, I have mounting issues and have bought the biggest mounting block available. I had slippery reins in the wet with my youngster when she was excited so bought new reins. At least this couple are taking lessons, 4 lessons a week to try to get on top of the issues. Many, many youngsters are bargey. The couple do sound as if they have bought the "wrong" horse, but at least they are taking advice. Many people do change instructors when told to sell the horse. They may simply be defensive as they realise they have over horsed themselves and people are being sniffy.

The horse is another matter. Do you have to lead him? If not then it is not really your issue what he is like to lead. I have not found it to be a reliable indicator of what horses are like with people V what they are like when turned out. One of our most dominant Police Horses, he was awful to some of the people - had form for letting people into his stable then not letting them out again. He shoved the gardeners into the river when they were strimming. Heaven help anyone who was inexperienced and tried to lunge him, he ended up chasing them out of the arena. He would deliberately bite, deliberately turn his bum on you, do a runner when led with a person concrete-skiing behind him. When you tried to mount he would tread on your right toe once your left foot was in the stirrup. He was, however, a wonderful working Police Horse, could stop a crowd of 200 by himself, and featured in Horse and Hound when burned by a firework and still held the crowd back, never missed a beat. In the field with other horses? A baby. Pushed round all over. I believe he was hand reared, over familiar with people, not well socialised with other horses. In the field he was the one who was bullied, harmless to others.

My point being that what a horse is like to handle has no bearing on what they are like when turned out.

So, a new horse in your yard is not happy in the first field he was put in. There is another, suitable field. It seems reasonable to try him in the second field.

I don't see the relevance of whether or not you like the owners. I don't see the relevance of how much space the humans take in the tack room.

I would say the biggest issue is the yard management. It is the YM's issue if people are taking too much space. It is also their issue if ill feeling is not addressed. TBH, not many yards have back shoes removed from a whole field of horses if one horse goes in, but good yards would supervise when a new horse goes out, maybe also having the horse next door to start with. If the horse does not get on in the second field, then presumably it would be moved again.

If you don't like or trust the YM than that is the issue IMO.

It can be hard being a new owner, going to a big and established yard. Many people then become defensive and try to make out that they know it all.

Horses do play, kick etc when turned out. Youngsters do tent to have a play drive. If you had agreed single turnout and then other horses were put in with yours then I would understand how upset you are.

If I was the YO, and people started coming to me with documents saying that if a horse goes out with their horse into a shared turnout arrangement, and their horse is injured, that I would be held personally liable and sued, then that livery would be given notice and would leave forthwith.


TBH, this is why I have my own place, horses at home, turn out in my control. Shoes removed for introductions, but then they are all my shoes. But, then I have no riding companion to go out with and spend more money for less facilities. But, then I have no defensive people bothering me, my hoof pick, whip and mucking out equipment stay exactly where I put it. But, I have to arrange to be able to do my horse, emergency fence repairs, emergency everything - myself and at the drop of a hat.
 

Red-1

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I was trying to show the lack of experience from them, new reins won’t fix a true headshaker or bit of headshaking, a new mounting block won’t help mounting if it doesn’t get taught to stand and taking up all the space is a sheer lack of respect for everyone else.
Yes, they are inexperienced, but I can't see why that means the horse can't go in the shared field?
 
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I agree with this. TBH, I have mounting issues and have bought the biggest mounting block available. I had slippery reins in the wet with my youngster when she was excited so bought new reins. At least this couple are taking lessons, 4 lessons a week to try to get on top of the issues. Many, many youngsters are bargey. The couple do sound as if they have bought the "wrong" horse, but at least they are taking advice. Many people do change instructors when told to sell the horse. They may simply be defensive as they realise they have over horsed themselves and people are being sniffy.

The horse is another matter. Do you have to lead him? If not then it is not really your issue what he is like to lead. I have not found it to be a reliable indicator of what horses are like with people V what they are like when turned out. One of our most dominant Police Horses, he was awful to some of the people - had form for letting people into his stable then not letting them out again. He shoved the gardeners into the river when they were strimming. Heaven help anyone who was inexperienced and tried to lunge him, he ended up chasing them out of the arena. He would deliberately bite, deliberately turn his bum on you, do a runner when led with a person concrete-skiing behind him. When you tried to mount he would tread on your right toe once your left foot was in the stirrup. He was, however, a wonderful working Police Horse, could stop a crowd of 200 by himself, and featured in Horse and Hound when burned by a firework and still held the crowd back, never missed a beat. In the field with other horses? A baby. Pushed round all over. I believe he was hand reared, over familiar with people, not well socialised with other horses. In the field he was the one who was bullied, harmless to others.

My point being that what a horse is like to handle has no bearing on what they are like when turned out.

So, a new horse in your yard is not happy in the first field he was put in. There is another, suitable field. It seems reasonable to try him in the second field.

I don't see the relevance of whether or not you like the owners. I don't see the relevance of how much space the humans take in the tack room.

I would say the biggest issue is the yard management. It is the YM's issue if people are taking too much space. It is also their issue if ill feeling is not addressed. TBH, not many yards have back shoes removed from a whole field of horses if one horse goes in, but good yards would supervise when a new horse goes out, maybe also having the horse next door to start with. If the horse does not get on in the second field, then presumably it would be moved again.

If you don't like or trust the YM than that is the issue IMO.

It can be hard being a new owner, going to a big and established yard. Many people then become defensive and try to make out that they know it all.

Horses do play, kick etc when turned out. Youngsters do tent to have a play drive. If you had agreed single turnout and then other horses were put in with yours then I would understand how upset you are.

If I was the YO, and people started coming to me with documents saying that if a horse goes out with their horse into a shared turnout arrangement, and their horse is injured, that I would be held personally liable and sued, then that livery would be given notice and would leave forthwith.


TBH, this is why I have my own place, horses at home, turn out in my control. Shoes removed for introductions, but then they are all my shoes. But, then I have no riding companion to go out with and spend more money for less facilities. But, then I have no defensive people bothering me, my hoof pick, whip and mucking out equipment stay exactly where I put it. But, I have to arrange to be able to do my horse, emergency fence repairs, emergency everything - myself and at the drop of a hat.
I like your reply.

The police horse sounds like a great character!

You are very lucky to have your own facilities now.

I don’t have any grief with yo, they’re quite strict which has worked so far with everyone. I can see their point of view but again I would also be conscious that many of their clients have came to them with varying concerns about what has happened to them and any provisions which may happen in the future.

Time will tell.
 

mule

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I agree with this. TBH, I have mounting issues and have bought the biggest mounting block available. I had slippery reins in the wet with my youngster when she was excited so bought new reins. At least this couple are taking lessons, 4 lessons a week to try to get on top of the issues. Many, many youngsters are bargey. The couple do sound as if they have bought the "wrong" horse, but at least they are taking advice. Many people do change instructors when told to sell the horse. They may simply be defensive as they realise they have over horsed themselves and people are being sniffy.

The horse is another matter. Do you have to lead him? If not then it is not really your issue what he is like to lead. I have not found it to be a reliable indicator of what horses are like with people V what they are like when turned out. One of our most dominant Police Horses, he was awful to some of the people - had form for letting people into his stable then not letting them out again. He shoved the gardeners into the river when they were strimming. Heaven help anyone who was inexperienced and tried to lunge him, he ended up chasing them out of the arena. He would deliberately bite, deliberately turn his bum on you, do a runner when led with a person concrete-skiing behind him. When you tried to mount he would tread on your right toe once your left foot was in the stirrup. He was, however, a wonderful working Police Horse, could stop a crowd of 200 by himself, and featured in Horse and Hound when burned by a firework and still held the crowd back, never missed a beat. In the field with other horses? A baby. Pushed round all over. I believe he was hand reared, over familiar with people, not well socialised with other horses. In the field he was the one who was bullied, harmless to others.

My point being that what a horse is like to handle has no bearing on what they are like when turned out.

So, a new horse in your yard is not happy in the first field he was put in. There is another, suitable field. It seems reasonable to try him in the second field.

I don't see the relevance of whether or not you like the owners. I don't see the relevance of how much space the humans take in the tack room.

I would say the biggest issue is the yard management. It is the YM's issue if people are taking too much space. It is also their issue if ill feeling is not addressed. TBH, not many yards have back shoes removed from a whole field of horses if one horse goes in, but good yards would supervise when a new horse goes out, maybe also having the horse next door to start with. If the horse does not get on in the second field, then presumably it would be moved again.

If you don't like or trust the YM than that is the issue IMO.

It can be hard being a new owner, going to a big and established yard. Many people then become defensive and try to make out that they know it all.

Horses do play, kick etc when turned out. Youngsters do tent to have a play drive. If you had agreed single turnout and then other horses were put in with yours then I would understand how upset you are.

If I was the YO, and people started coming to me with documents saying that if a horse goes out with their horse into a shared turnout arrangement, and their horse is injured, that I would be held personally liable and sued, then that livery would be given notice and would leave forthwith.


TBH, this is why I have my own place, horses at home, turn out in my control. Shoes removed for introductions, but then they are all my shoes. But, then I have no riding companion to go out with and spend more money for less facilities. But, then I have no defensive people bothering me, my hoof pick, whip and mucking out equipment stay exactly where I put it. But, I have to arrange to be able to do my horse, emergency fence repairs, emergency everything - myself and at the drop of a hat.
That police horse sounds like a character 😀
 
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