The 20% rule

[Cortez]

How much did the armour weigh?

He he; not much - it's a resin-polymer.

 

[zaminda]

For me it is not just the weight but what you are doing with them. For endurance the weight is 75kg, which is too much for many small arabs especially over those distances. I find it very strange that they have never questioned this with all the problems that have surrounded endurance. I would like to see the endurance world do a study weighing every horse and then the rider with, and recording any problems. It would be quite possible to do at the FEI rides, as they weigh the riders anyway.

 

[ycbm]

Ddd

Is that just an aesthetic preference though? The same percentage body weight with a different pairing could well sit right with your eye.

Absolutely not aesthetic, no. I did not say 'sit right with my eye', I said 'sit right with me'. It's a detailed knowledge of how a horse is made, (including interesting facts like its front legs are not attached by anything but soft tissue, that it uses its stomach muscles to hold up a rider etc), a knowledge of how much 20% of my own bodyweight feels like, a knowledge that pressure of over 1.5lbs/in sq is known to cause skin damage, and a knowledge as an experienced 10st rider of how my own shifts in balance affects horses.

Horses aren't beasts of burden any more, I want them to be happy athletes.

You refer in a later post than this one above to experienced riders being prejudiced against fat riders. We aren't. We just know that it's a sport, and like any sport it's actually very difficult to do well if you are obese enough to weight 20% of a decent size horse. It's not prejudice, it's reality

 

[Cortez]

Hmm, you may have taken the idea of "donning a tin hat" a little too far there, Cortez!

Yeah, it's handy.....

Horse is actually a pony; she's 14.2h, half-Friesian, built like a brick you-know-what (but not overly heavy boned), and has been humping my not inconsiderable 11 stone plus a heavy medieval saddle around for close to 17 years now without a day's complaint. She is however extremely well muscled and fairly fit year-round.

 

[ycbm]

He he; not much - it's a resin-polymer.

You look fantastic! Both of you

 

[ycbm]

Yeah, it's handy.....

Horse is actually a pony; she's 14.2h, half-Friesian, built like a brick you-know-what (but not overly heavy boned), and has been humping my not inconsiderable 11 stone plus a heavy medieval saddle around for close to 17 years now without a day's complaint. She is however extremely well muscled and fairly fit year-round.

I guessing that would be 15-17% ?

 

[Cortez]

You look fantastic! Both of you

Well thank you, I'm proud of me horse, bless her.

But the point is, she's been carrying quite close to the "limit" for all of her working life and has never, ever had a lame step, sore back, minor niggle...nothing. I have others who are also small by "normal" criteria (14.2 - 15.1) and not gurt big cobs either, quite fine; likewise no problems. But I am careful, they are all worked with the health of their backs, joints and muscles in mind, not asked to do anything they are not ready for and kept ticking over in the off season. So horses CAN carry reasonable amounts of weight, perhaps more than most people think. HOWEVER....I've just returned from a trip where I saw some really quite enormous people riding. I cannot imagine what sort of horse would be able to comfortably carry them.....in reality they shouldn't consider subjecting any horse to that.

 

[Cortez]

I guessing that would be 15-17% ?

At least.

 

[Mongoose11]

Ddd
You refer in a later post than this one above to experienced riders being prejudiced against fat riders. We aren't. We just know that it's a sport, and like any sport it's actually very difficult to do well if you are obese enough to weight 20% of a decent size horse. It's not prejudice, it's reality

No, I did not. I didn't say that experienced riders are prejudiced. I suggested a skew if the study used experienced riders who were prejudiced.

I think I am very realistic about weight carrying ability while others are just barmy.

I'd say that Cortez would be nearer 18% on that horse if not more.

I also agree that it depends on activity level regarding suitability.

 

[Leo Walker]

I think I am very realistic about weight carrying ability while others are just barmy.

Cortez is fine even though shes heavier than people said is ok because shes not fat and its a very pleasing picture. Would it still be ok if she was shorter and fatter looking and less aesthetically pleasing? I doubt it! We've been here before with the weight bashing. I just find some of it incredibly peculiar!

 

[FfionWinnie]

I am careful, they are all worked with the health of their backs, joints and muscles in mind, not asked to do anything they are not ready for and kept ticking over in the off season. . .

Here is the crux of the matter. Too many people sloping around in arenas a few times a week and little else and the horses never actually being conditioned or trained correctly. They are also usually over fed on the wrong sort of food and not conditioned to the work either. Waving carrots around does not maketh a riding horse.

Can I please borrow your tin hat Cortez

 

[ycbm]

So can we start our own formula? Here's my first go.

Absolute maximum for any horse of any type - 20%

Young, old, not in regular conditioning work of a serious nature - deduct 20%

Horse is overweight - deduct the amount of weight that the horse is carrying in his own fat.

Rider is unbalanced/novice/poor muscle tone - deduct 20%

Horse is average width across the loins and fairly good conformation - minus 20%

Horse is narrow across the loins/long in the back/long legged especially in the cannon bones/small tight joints - minus 30%

Maximum deduction for multiple issues 50%


So a horse like Frankiecobs, in regular work of the right kind, with a competent rider, can carry 20%, but the same weight lightweight ex flat racer with a wobbly rider would only carry 10%.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I would be interested to see what you think about my horse and I as a combo. I am very aware of the fact that I am overweight, and have begun to make a conscious effort to loose some to benefit him.

The first photo is a horrendous one of him, he wasn't happy at being asked to halt and hollowed through his back and put on a fake outline, but it shows my weight the best. The second photo was taken about 30 seconds afterwards and shows more accurately the way in which he works.

 

[ycbm]

Cortez is fine even though shes heavier than people said is ok because shes not fat and its a very pleasing picture. Would it still be ok if she was shorter and fatter looking and less aesthetically pleasing? I doubt it! We've been here before with the weight bashing. I just find some of it incredibly peculiar!

But no-one is weight bashing.

This is like being accused of racism for wanting to discuss immigration!

 

[YorksG]

Given how much emphasis we put on the conformation of the horse, perhaps we should put a little more emphasis on rider conformation. Whilst weight is an absolute, some one who weighs 12 stones weighs twelve stones whether they are 5'2" or 5'10", the way that the rider is built, their core strength, their ability to balance their weight will all influence their ability to ride. I wonder what most would consider to be the best build for riding?

 

[ycbm]

I would be interested to see what you think about my horse and I as a combo. I am very aware of the fact that I am overweight, and have begun to make a conscious effort to loose some to benefit him.

The first photo is a horrendous one of him, he wasn't happy at being asked to halt and hollowed through his back and put on a fake outline, but it shows my weight the best. The second photo was taken about 30 seconds afterwards and shows more accurately the way in which he works.

I think you look lovely. He's got a long enough back to carry a saddle that you aren't overflowing, you sit very nicely and he looks well strong enough to carry you. Have you any idea what percentage you are?

Ref the losing weight, I'm sure it will help you with wrapping your leg around him, rebalance your centre of gravity, and make riding really well a little easier, but I wouldn't say that he 'needs' you to lose weight at all.

 

[Cortez]

But no-one is weight bashing.

This is like being accused of racism for wanting to discuss immigration!

Well, I am a bit: I have just returned from a trip where I saw some downright obese people riding, far too fat to be riding their (or any) horses, and told them so.

 

[Mongoose11]

Well, I am a bit: I have just returned from a trip where I saw some downright obese people riding, far too fat to be riding their (or any) horses, and told them so.

😂 This made me chuckle.

BUT I return to the idea that looks can be deceiving. My friends know they do not need to flatter or humour me and when continually pushed to ride my horse I asked them how much they thought that I weighed. Not one of them came within three and a half stone of my actual weight. I think that weight can be deceiving at both ends of the spectrum.

 

[ycbm]

Given how much emphasis we put on the conformation of the horse, perhaps we should put a little more emphasis on rider conformation. Whilst weight is an absolute, some one who weighs 12 stones weighs twelve stones whether they are 5'2" or 5'10", the way that the rider is built, their core strength, their ability to balance their weight will all influence their ability to ride. I wonder what most would consider to be the best build for riding?

Is there any doubt? I'm lucky enough to nearly be it. Long thigh bones, small bust, hips wider than a man's but not as wide as most women, wide shoulder. I miss on my trunk, which is long and sets my centre of gravity a little too high, my thighs - too fleshy on the inside - and my neck, which is so long my head whips about on the top of it!

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I think you look lovely. He's got a long enough back to carry a saddle that you aren't overflowing, you sit very nicely and he looks well strong enough to carry you. Have you any idea what percentage you are?

I am 14%-ish. I am 12.5st (79kg), I have allowed 1.5st (9.5kg) for tack and his ideal weight I have calculated to be 635kg. If given only my percentage I wouldn't say I need to loose weight, but I know that he has had some issues with lumbar soreness and I would like to do everything I can to help. That just plays into the camp that this is all subjective I suppose!

 

[ycbm]

Well, I am a bit: I have just returned from a trip where I saw some downright obese people riding, far too fat to be riding their (or any) horses, and told them so.

That's not weight bashing, though, is it Cortez? If they hadn't been on a horse would you have walked up and told them so? Wasn't the issue simply that they were too heavy to be on the horse, not that they were too fat to be on the horse?

 

[KittenInTheTree]

Well, I am a bit: I have just returned from a trip where I saw some downright obese people riding, far too fat to be riding their (or any) horses, and told them so.

That's how people get eaten, you know...

Anyway, this article has the various methods for determining weight carrying ability:
http://www.learn-horseback-riding.com/how-much-can-a-horse-carry.html

 

[rara007]

I've had my pony since he was 6- now 18. Never had a days lameness or a saddle/back issue picked up with regular physio= I'm not going to start worrying now! I'm around the 20% mark and though well put together he's not a show pony.

Just got my new boy today, he's 2 inches shorter! Had more issues in 18 months with a great big WB (nothing serious) than I have had over a decade with the pony!

 

[Pigeon]

I agree that I wouldn't let my horse carry 20% of his weight, but there are many factors that affect weight carrying that simply aren't taken into account.

First is horse fitness. I have included two photos of me riding my horse to illustrate this, a couple of years apart.

I actually weigh nearly a stone more in the second photo, and yet he only appears to be struggling in the first. Horse posture is so important, and often overlooked. Imagine carrying a backpack with a hollowed, tense back - you will struggle and ache far more, even with a small weight, than if you were to carry it in a healthy way. I don't let my horse hollow even when out hacking (he goes on a loose rein but isn't allowed to giraffe) which some people don't agree with, but I think if he's going to lug around a significant weight for an hour I'd rather he did it in a non-damaging posture. Just as human body builders can become strong enough to lift massive weights, the correct conditioning will allow a horse to carry a bigger rider.

Second is conformation. Pip admittedly has weak back conformation, and this also limits his weight carrying capacity. However people assume that heavy horse crosses, or cobs, are automatically weight carriers because they have a lot of bone, when in fact many are extremely weak through the back and loins, especially those bred for driving rather than riding. I think back conformation should be taken into account when buying a weight carrier just as much as size/bone. TBs seem to have constant back issues, even those not ridden - I expect this is partly to do with racing as babies, but also so many are long backed/roach backed/sway backed or weak backed!! Native ponies just do not have these problems, even if they are carrying much greater weights! I think it's because ponies tend to have much sturdier back conformation, and hopefully sporthorse breeders take that into account.

And also the flaws with the 20% idea are that tack needs to be taken into account, and that it allows obese horses to carry more weight when in fact the opposite should be true.

I have to say horses aren't really designed to be ridden So it's worth doing everything possible to reduce strain on the back.

 

[cobgoblin]

That's how people get eaten, you know...html[/url]

Is that how you get the thin person that's hidden inside every fat person?
* runs away*

 

[YorksG]

Is there any doubt? I'm lucky enough to nearly be it. Long thigh bones, small bust, hips wider than a man's but not as wide as most women, wide shoulder. I miss on my trunk, which is long and sets my centre of gravity a little too high, my thighs - too fleshy on the inside - and my neck, which is so long my head whips about on the top of it!

As someone with similar conformation, I agree My height is in my legs, with longer thigh bones than shin bones, I am short backed (BP's can be a problem), with fairly narrow hips and widish shoulders. This is not something which any of us can claim credit for, genetics having a great deal of influence on build, but I wonder what others think about this?

 

[FfionWinnie]

Perhaps those with "near perfect conformation" could post a video of themselves riding so we can properly assess if good rider conformation leads to good riding ability. As someone of terrible rider conformation by these standards (make a good page 3 girl tho) I look forward to seeing you on your horses.

 

[YorksG]

Perhaps those with "near perfect conformation" could post a video of themselves riding so we can properly assess if good rider conformation leads to good riding ability. As someone of terrible rider conformation by these standards (make a good page 3 girl tho) I look forward to seeing you on your horses.

Perhaps a better method, would be to look at pictures of those who are undoubtably at the top of their game and look at their conformation?

 

[ycbm]

Perhaps those with "near perfect conformation" could post a video of themselves riding so we can properly assess if good rider conformation leads to good riding ability. As someone of terrible rider conformation by these standards (make a good page 3 girl tho) I look forward to seeing you on your horses.

I didn't say I was a good rider, I said I had good rider conformation. I'm not up for putting my riding up for critique, I don't see the relevance. I suggest you take a look at some high level dressage and count the proportion of stubby riders to elongated riders winning rosettes.

Is there any doubt that it's easier to wrap your legs around a horse if they are long and thin?

 

[FfionWinnie]

I didn't say I was a good rider, I said I had good rider conformation. I'm not up for putting my riding up for critique, I don't see the relevance. I suggest you take a look at some high level dressage and count the proportion of stubby riders to elongated riders winning rosettes.

Is there any doubt that it's easier to wrap your legs around a horse if they are long and thin?

I've no idea. My legs have always been long and thin while I have been a rider so I couldn't possibly say.