The 2012 racing season has now killed 50 horses!!

[elliebrewer98]

Horse and Hound has for many many years now been supported/read by people that are pro hunt, pro racing, pro eventing etc. Due to the amount of times this particular subject has been discussed and the fact that it always gets petty, I think the ideal solution would be for the original poster to take their views onto a forum that is in support of them. I personally have no issues with racing, I also have no issues for those that don't support it but I think this is the wrong place to start these types of thread, it's a bit like joining a Ferarri forum to discuss how terribly uneconomical their vehicles are and expecting everyone on there to change their opinion and buy electric cars instead.

Very well made point

 

[Over2You]

I've asked this before, and I'm working on the basis, that rather like the irritating child who continues to ask the same question, again and again, in the hope of an answer;

Can someone please explain to me just why anyone takes Over2You, and his or her inane statements seriously, and credits them with reasoned replies?

Alec.

What “reasoned replies”?? About the only responses I have received are ones deflecting attention away from the subject. I am NOT talking about live transport, the welfare of horses in Egypt, or any other situations in which horses suffer. I am talking about the very real FACT that more than the equivalent number of starters in the Grand National have perished since the beginning of this year!! How can you find that extremely high number of fatalities acceptable?? The ONLY reason those horses died was so that you could be entertained (yes, entertainment is one of the definitions of sport). I will admit that life is not without risk, but it’s a totally different thing to put creatures (that have no understanding of the dangers surrounding racing) into such hazardous situations!! It is inhumane and barbaric!!

 

[Over2You]

There is also no need to use multiple exclamation marks, or multiples of other forms of punctuation. It is incorrect usage, but as language changes and adapts it seems as acceptable as using easily identified neologisms.

I think you will find that a lot of professional writers (even top authors) use multiple exclamation marks, and other forms of punctuation when putting emphasis on the points they are making.

Language may be changing, but certainly not for the better. This modern way of "free spelling" only encourages laziness. I have also checked several online/printed dictionaries, and "soz" isn't in any of them!!

When trying to come over as being intelligent on a forum, it is always best to spell properly, and to use words that are actually in English dictionaries.

 

[amandap]

Horse and Hound has for many many years now been supported/read by people that are pro hunt, pro racing, pro eventing etc. Due to the amount of times this particular subject has been discussed and the fact that it always gets petty, I think the ideal solution would be for the original poster to take their views onto a forum that is in support of them. I personally have no issues with racing, I also have no issues for those that don't support it but I think this is the wrong place to start these types of thread, it's a bit like joining a Ferarri forum to discuss how terribly uneconomical their vehicles are and expecting everyone on there to change their opinion and buy electric cars instead.

Ah, now I know why I don't read it. I don't fit the profile of a true blue H&H-er.

I don't think 50 horse deaths since January 1st 2012 is acceptable in a 'sport'. An abbatoir maybe.

 

[Caledonia]

Personally I have put to sleep half of that number in less than threeonths - all of whom are happy hackers and all rounders and ponies. Half of those again were due to injury -most commonly broken legs. In fact this week i had 2 fractures and a horse break down on front tendons - all wuthanased after injury in the field. Their welfare was much worse than similar racehorses as 1 was left 48hrs before getting a vet, 1 left 24hrs and the ither likely to have been 2-3hrs. My stats are out of approx 700-800 horses! A much much higher percentage than from the thousands of horses currently racing/ in training.

Why has everyone bashing racing ignored this post? If these are the figures for ONE vet practice, then why is racing any worse than what everyone else does with their horses?

 

[Over2You]

Althoughh racing happens all year round under both codes they are divided up into seasons. Traditionally the Jumps season ran from October to the end of April - winter jumping ground. The Flat season ran from the middle of April until the end of October - when the turf tracks raced fast and unsuitable for jumping. These days you have all weather tracks to flat race on all winter and jumps tracks water their ground to make is safe to jump on. No jumps meeting will ever be held where the ground is firm/fast all the way round.

So the horse you are referring to that died on the flat will have been on the all weather synthetic surface and will technically have been last season.

I am confused. You start off by saying that the flat season is traditionally run from April until October. Then, you say that flat racing occurs all year round. Does this mean that there is no such thing as a traditional season nowadays? You could now consider an actual year to be a season of racing? So, technically, Haafhd Handsome could have died during the 2012 season?

I also don't get how a horse dying in February could be classified as dying during the previous year's season (that traditionally ended in October). It doesn't make much sense at all.

 

[amandap]

Why has everyone bashing racing ignored this post? If these are the figures for ONE vet practice, then why is racing any worse than what everyone else does with their horses?

Because the thread is about racing. Pulling worse figures is imo no justification for deaths in a sport. Shall we vote who kills the most horses then the rest of us can feel better?

I have tons of questions as to why horse break legs in bowling green fields etc. etc. Alarm bells should be going off to deafen us all with the amount of injuries horses sustain...

ps. why is saying that level of deaths in a sport is unacceptable "bashing"?

 

[Caledonia]

Because the thread is about racing. Pulling worse figures is imo no justification for deaths in a sport. Shall we vote who kills the most horses then the rest of us can feel better?

I have tons of questions as to why horse break legs in bowling green fields etc. etc. Alarm bells should be going off to deafen us all with the amount of injuries horses sustain...

ps. why is saying that level of deaths in a sport is unacceptable "bashing"?

Because you only look at racing, and say it's unacceptable. If it was possible to show that the stats for horses dying across the equestrian world are comparable, then you would have no argument for saying racing is more cruel than hacking or turning horses out in a field and looking at them through the window.

 

[amage]

I am confused. You start off by saying that the flat season is traditionally run from April until October. Then, you say that flat racing occurs all year round. Does this mean that there is no such thing as a traditional season nowadays? You could now consider an actual year to be a season of racing? So, technically, Haafhd Handsome could have died during the 2012 season?

I also don't get how a horse dying in February could be classified as dying during the previous year's season (that traditionally ended in October). It doesn't make much sense at all.

Re-Read the post....you evidently missed the word "traditionally". Racing seasons traverse the New Year hence in NH this is the start of the 2012/2013 season. We are currently in the 2012 Flat season and the horse you referred to was racing in the 2011/2012 All Weather season

 

[Over2You]

Why has everyone bashing racing ignored this post? If these are the figures for ONE vet practice, then why is racing any worse than what everyone else does with their horses?

You will find that a horse breaking its leg in a field is an unforeseen accident. A horse might lose its balance, or trip on a divot. Being hit by a vehicle driving around a blind corner is also something that you cannot see coming.

A horse at the age of two or three-years-old breaking a leg after galloping multiple times at full speed is entirely predictable. A horse suffering a fatal fall after jumping an obstacle at speed is something that is inevitable.

Horse deaths in racing aren't accidents. They come part and parcel with the "sport".

Racehorses might also receive quick veterinary treatment at the track, but that is something that is only afforded to them when they are racing. Do racehorses receive rapid vet care while in transit or at home? Are they attended to quickly if they break a leg in the lorry, or when turned out (if they are lucky enough to get field time that is). Or, are they just like every other horse in that regard? It should also be noted that vets are present at other equestrian events as well. Racing isn't the only horse sport that can boast about having a vet on hand at all times.

 

[perfect11s]

You will find that a horse breaking its leg in a field is an unforeseen accident. A horse might lose its balance, or trip on a divot. Being hit by a vehicle driving around a blind corner is also something that you cannot see coming.

A horse at the age of two or three-years-old breaking a leg after galloping multiple times at full speed is entirely predictable. A horse suffering a fatal fall after jumping an obstacle at speed is something that is inevitable.

Horse deaths in racing aren't accidents. They come part and parcel with the "sport".

Racehorses might also receive quick veterinary treatment at the track, but that is something that is only afforded to them when they are racing. Do racehorses receive rapid vet care while in transit or at home? Are they attended to quickly if they break a leg in the lorry, or when turned out (if they are lucky enough to get field time that is). Or, are they just like every other horse in that regard? It should also be noted that vets are present at other equestrian events as well. Racing isn't the only horse sport that can boast about having a vet on hand at all times.

On a scale of one to ten I would give it about 1 on the cruelty scale and live exports and the suffering of horses bound for slaughter in Europe and the US about 9 how about the markets and the meat man ffs put some of your enery in to this !!!when thats sorted then have a go at the racing industy ... or maybe you're a bit of a delicate flower and dont want to see or think about what realy goes on !! just prance about at the races having nice day out

 

[Caledonia]

You will find that a horse breaking its leg in a field is an unforeseen accident. A horse might lose its balance, or trip on a divot. Being hit by a vehicle driving around a blind corner is also something that you cannot see coming.

A horse at the age of two or three-years-old breaking a leg after galloping multiple times at full speed is entirely predictable. A horse suffering a fatal fall after jumping an obstacle at speed is something that is inevitable.

Horse deaths in racing aren't accidents. They come part and parcel with the "sport".

A horse breaking it's leg in a race is as much of an accident as a horse breaking it's leg anywhere. Only if every horse that ever raced died that way could it be construed as NOT an accident, and inevitable. But it isn't inevitable, it a very small percentage, who die accidentally.

Racehorses tend to be exercised in far safer environments that the average happy hacker. So you could argue racing protects then far better. Their turnout is beautifully fenced, and they are continually monitored. Racehorses are also checked far more regularly than a horse in a DIY yard, for example. So the likelihood of their suffering is less than the average happy hacker in a DIY yard with dodgy fencing and lack of control over turnout etc.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Poppycock and twoddle and that is the last I am saying on the subject! Enjoy folks!

 

[Over2You]

Because you only look at racing, and say it's unacceptable. If it was possible to show that the stats for horses dying across the equestrian world are comparable, then you would have no argument for saying racing is more cruel than hacking or turning horses out in a field and looking at them through the window.

You are deflecting attention again!! This is a RACING thread!! It is NOT about anything else that happens in other spheres of the equestrian world!!

Where is there justification in the deaths of FIFTY horse so far this year??

 

[lachlanandmarcus]

I say soz quite a bit and also said it quite a bit when doing my degree at Oxford University, which doesnt prove I'm intelligent I agree, but may demonstrate that there is a tiny potential flaw in the 'soz = thickie' argument.

About as convincing as O2Ys main argument, I reckon.

 

[Caledonia]

You are deflecting attention again!! This is a RACING thread!! It is NOT about anything else that happens in other spheres of the equestrian world!!

Where is there justification in the deaths of FIFTY horse so far this year??

Don't shout. It suggests you are losing your argument.

Why does there need to be justification of it when similar figures happen across the whole equestrian sphere, one way or another?

 

[Over2You]

Poppycock and twoddle and that is the last I am saying on the subject! Enjoy folks!

So, FIFTY horses dying while racing this year is a load of "poppycock" and "twoddle" - is it?? On which planet are you living??

PS: Who is spouting a load of twaddle now?? That (twaddle) is the correct spelling of the word - not "twoddle"!!

 

[amandap]

Because you only look at racing, and say it's unacceptable. If it was possible to show that the stats for horses dying across the equestrian world are comparable, then you would have no argument for saying racing is more cruel than hacking or turning horses out in a field and looking at them through the window.

Do I? No I don't. I think the amount of injuries horses sustain in general should be questioned not just accepted as 'one of those things'.

Again the thread is about racing in particular and just because I find the number of deaths unacceptable doesn't mean I find deaths in other sports/ways acceptable. Why are horses legs so weak they break so frequently? Is it the bones, is it the tendons and ligaments, is it the hooves, is it over straining the limb? Why would a free horse (in a field) over strain it's limb? Despite popular thinking among humans horses are not stupid! Are we doing something,or not doing something to promote breakages and strains, tears etc. etc? That is THE question imo.
Yes there are accidents, but it seems to me that horses in our care are overly prone to them. Surely I am not alone with these questions?

 

[amandap]

Why does there need to be justification of it when similar figures happen across the whole equestrian sphere, one way or another?

Oh, that's alright then... we will just carry on,no questions asked, We'll cry when our horse dies in a race or some other way but hey ho that's life! We'll get another one, and another. The supply is endless so long as we keep breeding enough and there might even be that winner! Hope he doesn't die though.

I'm afraid that isn't the life I want.

 

[Caledonia]

Do I? No I don't. I think the amount of injuries horses sustain in general should be questioned not just accepted as 'one of those things'.

Again the thread is about racing in particular and just because I find the number of deaths unacceptable doesn't mean I find deaths in other sports/ways acceptable. Why are horses legs so weak they break so frequently? Is it the bones, is it the tendons and ligaments, is it the hooves, is it over straining the limb? Why would a free horse (in a field) over strain it's limb? Despite popular thinking among humans horses are not stupid! Are we doing something,or not doing something to promote breakages and strains, tears etc. etc? That is THE question imo.
Yes there are accidents, but it seems to me that horses in our care are overly prone to them. Surely I am not alone with these questions?

If you are genuine about your concerns being for horses across the board in all sports, and situations, why do you only concentrate on attacking racing? Where are your threads on the horses that die in fields, on the roads, of colic, through lack of attention, through poor care? Where is your outrage at those numbers?

 

[Over2You]

Don't shout. It suggests you are losing your argument.

Why does there need to be justification of it when similar figures happen across the whole equestrian sphere, one way or another?

So, show jumping has killed a similar number of horses this year, has it?? Something like fifty horses have died during dressage tests so far this year?? I also bet that eventing can't even say that it has killed anywhere near as many horses!!

Racing is by far the most dangerous of all horse sports. Nothing can deny that fact!! No sport should get away with having such a high number of fatalities!!

 

[amandap]

If you are genuine about your concerns being for horses across the board in all sports, and situations, why do you only concentrate on attacking racing? Where are your threads on the horses that die in fields, on the roads, of colic, through lack of attention, through poor care? Where is your outrage at those numbers?

You assume I am not genuine and you put words in my mouth. Enjoy your sport.

 

[Caledonia]

Oh, that's alright then... we will just carry on,no questions asked, We'll cry when our horse dies in a race or some other way but hey ho that's life! We'll get another one, and another. The supply is endless so long as we keep breeding enough and there might even be that winner! Hope he doesn't die though.

I'm afraid that isn't the life I want.

You see, racing does ask questions, continually. There are pms done on a lot of horses that suffer catastrophic injuries whilst racing. The results help with future research in ways to prevent or repair injuries. That doesn't happen in any other sphere.

Why do you imagine you know how owners of racehorses feel? You are putting words into the mouths of people you don't even know.

If you don't want to race horses, then that's fine, but it is not your place to decree what happens with horses other than yours.

 

[Caledonia]

So, show jumping has killed a similar number of horses this year, has it?? Something like fifty horses have died during dressage tests so far this year?? I also bet that eventing can't even say that it has killed anywhere near as many horses!!

Racing is by far the most dangerous of all horse sports. Nothing can deny that fact!! No sport should get away with having such a high number of fatalities!!

You find me the statistics that state how many horses have died as a result of show jumping, or dressage. Then, and only then, do you have an argument.

Do you even know how many horses compete every year in SJ and dressage? Do you know how many are born to do that job?

 

[Over2You]

If you are genuine about your concerns being for horses across the board in all sports, and situations, why do you only concentrate on attacking racing? Where are your threads on the horses that die in fields, on the roads, of colic, through lack of attention, through poor care? Where is your outrage at those numbers?

For the umpteenth time - this thread has NOTHING to do with OTHER equestrian pursuits or equine illnesses!! FIFTY horses have died racing this year (it only turned May a few days ago), and not one of you pro-racers have said how terrible it is that such a high number of horses have died. You really couldn't care less, could you??

 

[Over2You]

You find me the statistics that state how many horses have died as a result of show jumping, or dressage. Then, and only then, do you have an argument.

Do you even know how many horses compete every year in SJ and dressage? Do you know how many are born to do that job?

Well, I can say that I have spent 20+ years watching show jumping. That probably equates to thousands of hours worth of sport. I can count on one hand the number of horses I have seen suffer fatal injuries (Sir Arkay, GG Barock, Pikap, and Hickstead). More horses than that died during the last Cheltenham Festival. Go figure!!

 

[Caledonia]

For the umpteenth time - this thread has NOTHING to do with OTHER equestrian pursuits or equine illnesses!! FIFTY horses have died racing this year (it only turned May a few days ago), and not one of you pro-racers have said how terrible it is that such a high number of horses have died. You really couldn't care less, could you??

I'm not sure if you are being stupid or obtuse.

You only want to concentrate on racing because you have a huge bias against it.

Why is fifty horses dying through racing worse than fifty horses dying through injuries on the road or in fields?

I don't think it's an exceptional number across the spectrum of the horse world in general, so I don't see what your outrage is about.

I think it's incredibly sad when horses die prematurely, whatever the scenario. However I do think that racehorses are lucky in that if they have an accident on a course, they have no prolonged suffering at all. Unlike horses found tangled in wire, broken legged in fields, hit by a car etc.

 

[Over2You]

I'm not sure if you are being stupid or obtuse.

You only want to concentrate on racing because you have a huge bias against it.

Why is fifty horses dying through racing worse than fifty horses dying through injuries on the road or in fields?

I don't think it's an exceptional number across the spectrum of the horse world in general, so I don't see what your outrage is about.

I think it's incredibly sad when horses die prematurely, whatever the scenario. However I do think that racehorses are lucky in that if they have an accident on a course, they have no prolonged suffering at all. Unlike horses found tangled in wire, broken legged in fields, hit by a car etc.

The former is in the name of "sport" and entirely preventable. The latter are accidents!! That is the difference!!

 

[Alec Swan]

.........

PS: Who is spouting a load of twaddle now?? That (twaddle) is the correct spelling of the word - not "twoddle"!!

It's a generally accepted fact, that those who are on the losing end of a debate, debase their argument, by concentrating on the spelling and grammatical mistakes of others.

...........

Where is there justification in the deaths of FIFTY horse so far this year??

However unfortunate, 50 deaths, so far this year, and purely on the race course is an acceptable risk, and one which those involved in racing accept.

That, I would suggest, is the answer to your question.

Alec.

Ets, Doubtless you'll be impressed with the fact that I resisted the temptation to point out that your "FIFTY horse", might better have been presented with horses in the plural. Just thought that I'd mention it, beams from one's own eye, and all that!!

 

[A1fie]

The difference with other sports is that they breakdown behind the scenes. So yes you may not see showjumpers and dressage horses break down in the ring, but you can be sure that there are a huge amount of casulties that you don't see. British racing is well regulated and utterly transparent.