The 2012 racing season has now killed 50 horses!!

[Caledonia]

Well, I can say that I have spent 20+ years watching show jumping. That probably equates to thousands of hours worth of sport. I can count on one hand the number of horses I have seen suffer fatal injuries (Sir Arkay, GG Barock, Pikap, and Hickstead). More horses than that died during the last Cheltenham Festival. Go figure!!

Now here's the difference, EVERY race is filmed, and archived.

However, you haven't watched these fifty racehorses die, have you? You've lifted that as a stat from a site. So by that token, your argument about watching show jumping is irrelevant, because you don't know what happened in the thousands of rounds that you have never seen, and will never see, because there is no record.

 

[Caledonia]

The former is in the name of "sport" and entirely preventable. The latter are accidents!! That is the difference!!

Refer back to my previous post where I have already answered that fallacy.

 

[Over2You]

I'm not sure if you are being stupid or obtuse.

You only want to concentrate on racing because you have a huge bias against it.

Why is fifty horses dying through racing worse than fifty horses dying through injuries on the road or in fields?

I don't think it's an exceptional number across the spectrum of the horse world in general, so I don't see what your outrage is about.

I think it's incredibly sad when horses die prematurely, whatever the scenario. However I do think that racehorses are lucky in that if they have an accident on a course, they have no prolonged suffering at all. Unlike horses found tangled in wire, broken legged in fields, hit by a car etc.

So, those things never happen to racehorses away from the track?? They always have a vet on hand 24/7??

 

[Caledonia]

So, those things never happen to racehorses away from the track?? They always have a vet on hand 24/7??

Yes, they are horses. However, the incidence is far less due to the care the racehorses receive. I don't know of any racing yard that has horses with access to wire paddocks, for ex. Not only do the majority have far safer exercise areas, there are always people about, unlike on DIY livery yards. Most yards have someone on them from 5.30 am, and finally checked at 10pm. All that time, there is someone about therefore access to a vet is quick between those hours.

ETA, please don't black bold sections of my posts to make it appear as if I am shouting. If you want to quote specific parts, do so.

 

[Honeylight]

Yes, they are horses. However, the incidence is far less due to the care the racehorses receive. I don't know of any racing yard that has horses with access to wire paddocks, for ex. Not only do the majority have far safer exercise areas, there are always people about, unlike on DIY livery yards. Most yards have someone on them from 5.30 am, and finally checked at 10pm. All that time, there is someone about therefore access to a vet is quick between those hours.

ETA, please don't black bold sections of my posts to make it appear as if I am shouting. If you want to quote specific parts, do so.

....& all racing yards will carry a humane killer as standard I would have thought.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I do believe that I can make up and use what ever words I see fit and can thus spell then however I like.

Next you'll be telling me that I can't call my horse The Hocamaffe because that isn't a real word.

And as for soz - it may well be a shortened down word to use in text messages but so is using numbers to replace words - over2you - for example

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Nope we dont have humane killers on the yards but at the big training centres such as Newmarket, Middleham and the Curragh there are big vet practices on site. Our vets are based on our sattelite yard and we never have more than 20mins to wait for a vet on our main yard.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Overthetop you also go on about racing being a sport - what then is happy hacking if its not a sporting past time? What of the horses that hack to get fit.for sporting competitions? Your argument is flawed.

 

[Leaf]

OTY can i ask what would be you ideal solution? if you had the power what would you change?

I ask this as a genuine question and I am genuinely interested in your ideas.

 

[Echo Bravo]

o2y is an unhappy bunny,who sees the darkside in everything in life so they have to focus on one thing and this it seems is horseracing and nothing else or otherwise their life has little meaning and that is my personal feeling about this person.

 

[cptrayes]

The difference with other sports is that they breakdown behind the scenes. So yes you may not see showjumpers and dressage horses break down in the ring, but you can be sure that there are a huge amount of casulties that you don't see. British racing is well regulated and utterly transparent.

This is not true, sorry

Where are the stats for horses put down in the days after a race due to injuries incurred during the race? My guess is that they at least double the published death rate, and I would like not to have to guess.

Racing deaths are in addition to those who break down behind the scenes, not a substitute for them.

And the statistics given for horses retired to stud make no sense to me. I have done the sums time and again and unless studs are killing large numbers of healthy mares every year, then they must be a skyscraper deep in mares if the number of horses who are recorded as going to breeding is correct.

 

[cptrayes]

Why has everyone bashing racing ignored this post? If these are the figures for ONE vet practice, then why is racing any worse than what everyone else does with their horses?

By the published figures, one horse dies in every 250 national hunt races. If one horse died in every 250 hacks, people would stop hacking. If one horse died in every 250 cross country rounds, there would be a death every day at every one day event and cross country and they would stop running those events.

You can't just compare deaths during a race with deaths from all causes seen by one vet. For a start, s/he doesn't put down that number of horses every week, s/he picked a week that s/he remembers as being bad. For a second, causalties at the racecourse are nowhere near all the casualties from those races. More are put down due to catastrophic injury after they get home. For a third, the type of things that cause the deaths of ordinary horses will also affect racehorses. Racehorse deaths due to the race itself is not the full figure.

It's the scale of it. That's what's different.

 

[vroutledge]

http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/ this website upsets me so much i wish there was something other than the death penalty for these poor horses, all this modern technology and yet we still haven't figured out a good way to prevent horses having to be PTS from a broken leg etc..........

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I HATE DEATH SODDING WATCH!!!!!!!!

That is all

 

[TeamChaser]

Cruelty and risk are 2 entirely different things

As a comparison - I have worked at a couple of NH racing yards (my sister at several) so I know how these horses are treated and I also know that at the end of the traditional autumn/winter NH season, all would go out in the field for a long summer holiday. I think you'll find most yards are the same. Welfare of the horse is paramount to ensure they perform to their potential

My sister worked for someone who fancied herself a dressage rider (I'm not talking Grand Prix here but BD at probably novice/medium level) - her horse was NEVER turned out. It went from stable to school and to the odd competition and that was it - not much of a life. I know which I think is cruel

Risk is a different thing and I don't think anyone is saying that racing doesn't contain risk - of course it does. It is extremely sad when a horse is fatally injured and it's something that no one wants to see. Injured horses are dealt with quickly and humanely however, which is the least any of us would want for our own horses.

My friends horse unfortunately suffered a catastrophic leg break in the field (God knows how) but when found in the morning (no idea how long she'd been like it) she was remarkably calm. Given the severity of the break and the physiology of a horses limb, she'd clearly suffered catastrophic nerve damage as well so didn't appear to be in pain (thank God) I would suggest this is often the case with racehorses and that, and the adrenalin, is why you often see them trying to continue to run - they're often not aware of the damage


Can I ask you Over2You what you do with your horse? Do you hack on the road, do you jump, do you turn out in a field with others? You're putting your horse at risk for your own pleasure - we all are

If you cannot accept risk, you shouldn't have a horse

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

[all this modern technology and yet we still haven't figured out a good way to prevent horses having to be PTS from a broken leg etc..........

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2011/sep/23/claims-five-broken-leg-horse?CMP=twt_gu


Read! Please do go and read this article if you haven't already! It will give you a huge insight into what goes on in a horses leg and just why a broken bone can rarely be fixed. I'll bet you don't even think about half of the stuff in that article when you see a horse break a leg.

It really is an eye opener and may just help everyone understand a bit better.

 

[Caledonia]

By the published figures, one horse dies in every 250 national hunt races. If one horse died in every 250 hacks, people would stop hacking. If one horse died in every 250 cross country rounds, there would be a death every day at every one day event and cross country and they would stop running those events.

You can't just compare deaths during a race with deaths from all causes seen by one vet. For a start, s/he doesn't put down that number of horses every week, s/he picked a week that s/he remembers as being bad. For a second, causalties at the racecourse are nowhere near all the casualties from those races. More are put down due to catastrophic injury after they get home. For a third, the type of things that cause the deaths of ordinary horses will also affect racehorses. Racehorse deaths due to the race itself is not the full figure.

It's the scale of it. That's what's different.

You are missing the point - you have no idea how many horses die out hacking, or in the field, or from sustained soft tissue damage due to intensive dressage training, or from eventing injuries, or from navicular type issues in SJ, or from flipping over in an arena, or from laminitis, or colic etc etc etc in livery yards because there are NO stats.

I'm not sure how you get to 1 horse in every 250 races, but if that is the case, then given the median number of horses running per race is likely to be 10, by your stats it's one death every 2,500 runners.

I am (unsurprisingly, given your tendency to quote opinion as fact) absolutely sure you are way out with that. If you are right, then eventing does not compare favourably. Other sports exact a high toll on the horse because he is being asked to do something unnatural. SJ, Dr, etc all call for intense pressures on the horse's system that it would not otherwise be subjected to, whereas galloping is as natural to a horse as breathing. But the sports horses are euthanased behind closed doors, not in the arena because the problems are ongoing and not instantly catastrophic.

Racehorse deaths are recorded. No other sport is.

Until there is a comparable record of the fate of ALL event horses, SJ, DR, Endurance etc, racing will always be open to biased criticism from the likes of yourself who abuse the fact that racing is the only responsible body recording every horse that competes, and make it to be a crime.

Don't misunderstand me, I am not attacking any other sport, I think real equestrianism needs to flourish in all disciplines. But the blinkered bashing is sheer laziness because racing is the only sport transparent enough to not hide the reality and the figures are out there for any bigot to manipulate.

 

[TeamChaser]

**Like**

 

[Paris1]

If I wish to campaign for the stop of transport of horses for slaughter I hardly expect someone to tell me I can't as less horses die than in some other act. T

 

[Dippy Zippy]

Prince Blue was at the Racing Yard i work for, none of his owners, trainer and assistant trainer were greedy or arrogant, and we are all devastated by his death. So don't tarnish everyone in the racing industry with the same brush.

 

[madmav]

If horses could talk to us and we asked them: Which would you prefer: Never to have been born? Or to be born and take a risk in a race, with the potential for a leg-fracture/humane bolt etc? But if you get away with it, quite a nice lifestyle really? What do you think they would say?

The person who started this fascinating series of opinions, and who sounds as if they've been named after a racehorse (ironically) possibly needs to stop living in a cuddly version of life.

Without racing, those horses wouldn't exist to be in danger of the prospect of injury. They would just not be here. End of. No horsey was born because there was no viable reason for someone to go to the expense of producing the blooming horse. Obvs, innit.

 

[Little Squirrel]

Yawns. Can you please find something else to post about because this topic is seriously boring now.

50 horses have died in 5 months, equating to 10 per month average. That is a low percentage compared to how many actually run.

Why can't people look at the overall statistics instead of getting thier knickers in a twist and complain about something much more worthy such as horses which are being neglected, starved and have a crap life in general. Open your eyes!!!

 

[cptrayes]

Can I ask you Over2You what you do with your horse? Do you hack on the road, do you jump, do you turn out in a field with others? You're putting your horse at risk for your own pleasure - we all are

If you cannot accept risk, you shouldn't have a horse

If 1 in 250 times anyone anywhere in the country hacked a horse died, none of us would hack horses.

Your argument does not work for me. It is about level of risk, not complete avoidance or no horse would ever be born, it would be too much risk to the mare to breed from it.

 

[cptrayes]

I'm not sure how you get to 1 horse in every 250 races, but if that is the case, then given the median number of horses running per race is likely to be 10, by your stats it's one death every 2,500 runners.

Racehorse deaths are recorded. No other sport is.

From a previous thread, racing's published death rate is 1 in 250 runners.

No other equestrian sport would continue with those death rates.

You fool yourself if you think all deaths are recorded. I paid just over meat money at a low class auction for an ex racer. I few quid less and she'd have been in a tin. I daresay she was sold cheap to a dodgy dealer who realised that she was too sharp to sell on and promptly dumped her into a low class market and she'll be far from alone in that. It costs well into three figures to sell a horse through a bloodstock auction (without the auctioneers fees) and the bottom end risk being sold instead to dodgy dealers or livestock auctions.

Regarding racing recording all deaths, can someone please answer how the number of horses being recorded as retiring to stud stacks up. If it were true, given the number of geldings in NH racing, how come the studs aren't skyscraper deep in mares? I know the powers that be can't help it if the owner records the horse as retired to stud if it's actually been shoved through the auctions or shot, but something looks wrong with the figures somewhere.

 

[cptrayes]

If horses could talk to us and we asked them: Which would you prefer: Never to have been born? Or to be born and take a risk in a race, with the potential for a leg-fracture/humane bolt etc? But if you get away with it, quite a nice lifestyle really? What do you think they would say?

Without racing, those horses wouldn't exist to be in danger of the prospect of injury. They would just not be here. End of. No horsey was born because there was no viable reason for someone to go to the expense of producing the blooming horse. Obvs, innit.

This is a good argument. So is the one about how many people would be out of jobs and how much tax would be taken out of the system that will have to be made up in other ways.

The argument is not straightforward.

 

[cptrayes]

Until there is a comparable record of the fate of ALL event horses, SJ, DR, Endurance etc, racing will always be open to biased criticism from the likes of yourself who abuse the fact that racing is the only responsible body recording every horse that competes, and make it to be a crime.

You only have to go to a number of NH meets and a number of BE events to realise that the death rate in one during the event is far higher than the other. If one to two horses died on every day of a BE event, eventing would change or stop running.

Do you not think that the very reason that racing needs to capture these figures is that the public can see how many more horses die during races than in other disciplines?

Regarding the deaths at home I do not believe that more event horses die at home of other causes than racehorses. I think you will also find that it is not routine to shoot an eventer because it buggered a tendon and cannot event again, where it would be routine to shoot a non-breedable or non breed-worthy racehorse. Nor is it normal to send it off to an auction and a completely unknown fate when it can't event any more, which is also prevalant amonst the less caring racehorse owners.

 

[Caledonia]

From a previous thread, racing's published death rate is 1 in 250 runners.

No other equestrian sport would continue with those death rates.

You fool yourself if you think all deaths are recorded. I paid just over meat money at a low class auction for an ex racer. I few quid less and she'd have been in a tin. I daresay she was sold cheap to a dodgy dealer who realised that she was too sharp to sell on and promptly dumped her into a low class market and she'll be far from alone in that. It costs well into three figures to sell a horse through a bloodstock auction (without the auctioneers fees) and the bottom end risk being sold instead to dodgy dealers or livestock auctions.

Regarding racing recording all deaths, can someone please answer how the number of horses being recorded as retiring to stud stacks up. If it were true, given the number of geldings in NH racing, how come the studs aren't skyscraper deep in mares? I know the powers that be can't help it if the owner records the horse as retired to stud if it's actually been shoved through the auctions or shot, but something looks wrong with the figures somewhere.

Ah, so you were wrong? One in 250 runners, not one in 250 races?
Hardly worth believing you when you can't even parrot statistics correctly.

I'd like to see the actual stats, if you are going to use them as an argument,
not just you having 'seen them on another thread'.

You baldly state ''No other equestrian sport would continue with those death rates.''. However, you don't KNOW that. That's an opinion. Until there are figures available, every comment like that is simply conjecture.

Deaths in training, which is what we are talking about here, ARE recorded. It's part of the trainers remit to tell Wetherbys.

Once a horse is out of racing, that is a different scenario entirely.

THe most recent BHA report has a percentage going to stud. That simply means used for breeding. The mares are usually kept with their owners at home, not heaped together in massive studs unless the operation is a hugely commercial effort, such as those in Newmarket or Ireland.

Some big owners own studs, and the geldings that raced for them retired there, JP McManus for one, but I'm unsure where you've seen geldings listed as retired to stud?

 

[Caledonia]

You only have to go to a number of NH meets and a number of BE events to realise that the death rate in one during the event is far higher than the other. If one to two horses died on every day of a BE event, eventing would change or stop running.

Do you not think that the very reason that racing needs to capture these figures is that the public can see how many more horses die during races than in other disciplines?

Regarding the deaths at home I do not believe that more event horses die at home of other causes than racehorses. I think you will also find that it is not routine to shoot an eventer because it buggered a tendon and cannot event again, where it would be routine to shoot a non-breedable or non breed-worthy racehorse. Nor is it normal to send it off to an auction and a completely unknown fate when it can't event any more, which is also prevalant amonst the less caring racehorse owners.

Yet again, more nonsense presented as fact. 1 to 2 horses do NOT die every race meeting. Where do you find the stats for that?

Racing records everything when a horse is in training, full stop. Nothing to do with the 'public'.

From personal knowledge, I completely disagree about the attrition rate for horses once out of eventing. In my experience I think it's far higher, at least at the top level. But that will simply have to be my opinion versus yours, as there are not stats kept.
However I've also been at a Badminton where 3 horses didn't make it out of just over a hundred runners. I've ridden at events where horses have died. It's not that rare, it just goes unreported unless it's a high profile horse or rider, or the accident damaged the rider badly.
But as I said, I'm not knocking any particular sport (I responded to you mentioning eventing) - if the sport involves horses, accidents will happen.

If you follow any horse sport, it's extremely naive to continue to attack racing. If you support the hardline detractors of racing, make no mistake, eventing is next in line, followed by all the rest.

As was said earlier, this is about risk, not cruelty.

As for sending through the sales, that is the racehorses means of sale. From the Breeze-ups, to the in training sales, the yearling sales etc. It's how the good and the slow change hands. It's across the board. It has to be done that way because it's an industry.
That said, it's not racehorses filling the desperate bottom end sales.

Me, I'd prefer to see the BHA take more responsibility for following horses out of training. But then again, why should they when no other discipline does? At least they monitor and regulate all their registered horses whilst in training.

 

[rhino]

However I've also been at a Badminton where 3 horses didn't make it out of just over a hundred runners.

Which year, which horses?

 

[rhino]

I'd like to see the actual stats, if you are going to use them as an argument,
not just you having 'seen them on another thread'.

What, you haven't bothered to check the statistics?

At present overall about 2 in every thousand runners are fatalities. Flat and All Weather racing accounts for around 0.6 fatalities of every thousand runners, Jump racing accounts for just over 4 fatalities of every thousand runners.

http://www.britishhorseracing.com/resources/equine-science-and-welfare/injuries-fatalities.asp