The 2012 racing season has now killed 50 horses!!

rhino said:
Which year, which horses?
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It was in the early nineties - can't remember what date, one horse was Toddy's, it got caught in a tiger trap style fence and broke a leg, I think - I'm trying to find the results - guess what - really hard to access ......
 
Caledonia said:
Yet again, more nonsense presented as fact. 1 to 2 horses do NOT die every race meeting. Where do you find the stats for that?
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I didn't get the stats for that from anywhere,, principally because I did not write it. Isn't it amazing how often on forums people get accused of writing things that they never did :D?
 
Caledonia said:
As for sending through the sales, that is the racehorses means of sale. From the Breeze-ups, to the in training sales, the yearling sales etc. It's how the good and the slow change hands. It's across the board. It has to be done that way because it's an industry.
That said, it's not racehorses filling the desperate bottom end sales.
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It does not have to be done that way and plenty of responsible horse owners do not do it that way. When my friend's hurdler knackered his tendons and could no longer race he gave him a year's rest and rehomed him for free with an equine masseur. One of my ex-racers came to me direct from the trainer after a year's rest for a hind leg suspensory injury.

It is done that way because it is easiest for the industry, true, but it is not true that it has to be done that way, especially with the failed horses.
 
cptrayes said:
I didn't get the stats for that from anywhere,, principally because I did not write it. Isn't it amazing how often on forums people get accused of writing things that they never did :D?
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Apologies, you implicated that in you post. As it's not fact, why say it though?
 
cptrayes said:
It does not have to be done that way and plenty of responsible horse owners do not do it that way. When my friend's hurdler knackered his tendons and could no longer race he gave him a year's rest and rehomed him for free with an equine masseur. One of my ex-racers came to me direct from the trainer after a year's rest for a hind leg suspensory injury.

It is done that way because it is easiest for the industry, true, but it is not true that it has to be done that way, especially with the failed horses.
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Of course it has to be done that way - for the youngstock, or horses in training unless a deal is struck with the agreement of all parties beforehand there is no other way for pinhookers and producers, agents and buyers to assess all the horses together to decide who they want to go with. Lots of rqacehorses are in syndicate or multiple ownership, and it is the only way to dissolve a partnership.

It's not organised for the failed ones? What sales are specific to failed racers? there is a minimum bid in place at all the registered bloodstock sales. If they go through normal sales there is no difference to other horses and ponies going through?

ETA, given your last 2 posts, I see you can't sustain your argument.
 
Caledonia said:
Some big owners own studs, and the geldings that raced for them retired there, JP McManus for one, but I'm unsure where you've seen geldings listed as retired to stud?
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I haven't seen geldings listed as retired to stud. If the numbers of horses published as retired to stud is true, and the majority of those are mares as they must be because most of the rest are geldings, then by my calculations studs must be so deep in mares that they can't move.
 
cptrayes said:
I haven't seen geldings listed as retired to stud. If the numbers of horses published as retired to stud is true, and the majority of those are mares as they must be because most of the rest are geldings, then by my calculations studs must be so deep in mares that they can't move.
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What calculations? Put the figures up that you find so hard to believe.
 
Caledonia said:
Of course it has to be done that way - for the youngstock, or horses in training unless a deal is struck with the agreement of all parties beforehand there is no other way for pinhookers and producers, agents and buyers to assess all the horses together to decide who they want to go with. Lots of rqacehorses are in syndicate or multiple ownership, and it is the only way to dissolve a partnership.

It's not organised for the failed ones? What sales are specific to failed racers? there is a minimum bid in place at all the registered bloodstock sales. If they go through normal sales there is no difference to other horses and ponies going through?
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Well you aren't right there either. My failed horse with the hindlimb injury was bought from a syndicate of 200 owners without going through an auction.

Your argument fails because of the sheer number of racehorses that are NOT sold through auctions but by private sales and through bloodstock agents outside auctions.
 
cptrayes said:
Well you aren't right there either. My failed horse with the hindlimb injury was bought from a syndicate of 200 owners without going through an auction.

Your argument fails because of the sheer number of racehorses that are NOT sold through auctions but by private sales and through bloodstock agents outside auctions.
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As I said, there are not sales for failed horses. Which part of that did you fail to understand? An injured horse would not be allowed to go through a registered sale.

Have you been to any of the sales? Do you know how they operate? They are how the industry operates in the main. Yes, there are private sales outside the main sales, but most of the sales in bloodstock starts at the foal sales, where the pinhookers or producers buy from the studs and breeders.
These will go back through the ring as yearlings, or 2yos, and be bought by agents either under instruction from an existing client (Godolphin, Coolmore, or the like) or by trainers themselves, or by agents for themselves, who have pre-arranged sending them to trainers. Occasionally, some owners buy themselves at the sales, but that is not common.
Agents and trainers know their clients, and what they are looking for.

It's not the same as buying a sports horse.
 
Caledonia said:
An injured horse would not be allowed to go through a registered sale.
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You have to be kidding me!

You ask me if I have ever been to bloodstock sales (yes, often, and bought, and sold) and then you say this ^^^

Have you got your eyes wide shut??????

Both Ascot and Doncaster sell unwarranted horses. At Ascot they are declared as unwarranted. At Doncaster they are sold "subject to vet" on the day by vets at the sales, and if not declared as subject to vet they are completely unwarranted.

And I can guarantee you from personal experience that a number of those unwarranted horses will be suffering from performance affecting problems which happen not to show in the sales environment. I bought a 4 year old with such a laryngeal paralysis problem that he could not canter at all. A friend bought a chaser with an unstable sacroiliac joint who was never able to race and was shot after a few months attempting to get him right. That friend also went to buy a pointer privately and was refused a blood test during the vetting. He walked away and the horse went through the subsequent Doncaster auction and was returned again to the one after that.

You live in a fairy dairy land if you think no horse unfit to race again goes through Doncaster or Ascot.
 
Caledonia said:
...Why is fifty horses dying through racing worse than fifty horses dying through injuries on the road or in fields?...
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Over2You said:
The former is in the name of "sport" and entirely preventable. The latter are accidents!! That is the difference!!
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But the horses wouldn't be out on the roads, if we didn't enjoy riding them, so yes while its an accident (as are those racing), its also preventable as I put the horse in that position.

Why is it acceptable and classed an accident if a horse dies on the road, but not if a horse dies racing?
Does this mean, if I was out racing my horse alongside another, on the beach, for instance, and she broke her leg, that it isn't acceptable?
 
cptrayes said:
You have to be kidding me!

You ask me if I have ever been to bloodstock sales (yes, often, and bought, and sold) and then you say this ^^^

Have you got your eyes wide shut??????

Both Ascot and Doncaster sell unwarranted horses. At Ascot they are declared as unwarranted. At Doncaster they are sold "subject to vet" on the day by vets at the sales, and if not declared as subject to vet they are completely unwarranted.

And I can guarantee you from personal experience that a number of those unwarranted horses will be suffering from performance affecting problems which happen not to show in the sales environment. I bought a 4 year old with such a laryngeal paralysis problem that he could not canter at all. A friend bought a chaser with an unstable sacroiliac joint who was never able to race and was shot after a few months attempting to get him right. That friend also went to buy a pointer privately and was refused a blood test during the vetting. He walked away and the horse went through the subsequent Doncaster auction and was returned again to the one after that.

You live in a fairy dairy land if you think no horse unfit to race again goes through Doncaster or Ascot.
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I said 'injured'. You really do need to read what I write before you pull it apart. :rolleyes:

I have been to sales where injured horses have been taken out. There's a huge difference between a horse that will probably not stand up to more racing (which is entirely up to the seller to find out), and a visibly lame one. There would be little or no point anyway putting a lame horse through, because nobody would buy one. And as I said, there is a minimum bid to protect the horses that might not sell. If you or your friends choose to buy a horse not subject to vet, then more fool them or you.

All this is irrelevant because no sales are just for failed horses, which you seem to be trying to disprove because some go through that aren't right.

I can list you hundreds of horses that I know about that have gone through sales, and are perfectly sound but slow, I can equally list you a load of dealers who sell sports horses in a much dodgier fashion.

On that front racing is far more honest than any other discipline.

I get it, you have tunnel vision and hate racing. That's fine. Just don't indulge your bigotry by using your opinions as facts.
 
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I really didnt intend to get involved with this, but I do feel the need to point something out...

Whoever it was who said that they bought their horse off a syndicate - the reason they would have been able to do that is that a syndicate is a different form of ownership to a partnership or even a club....

just another example of not knowing before spouting....
 
Oh - and the most up to date list (that Im aware of) of horses injured and dead (both at home and on a racecourse) or retired is actually on a racing forum Im a regular on,people regualy contact trainers of injured horses to ask how they are (and trainers are 99% of the time happy to answer and are touched that joe public do actually care) - between the flat and NH this year so far its almost certainally more than 50, I will go off and count them up. The only way for racing to hopefully keep its critics happy (and the bashers bashing,cos lets face it - they arent ever going to change!) is to be as open as they can be. Weatherbys require ALL passports of any registered TB, in training or not, to be returned to them so that they can ammend all their records accordingly - likewise, whenever a filly/mare goes off to stud you have to re-register them as a broodmare - again, so they can be kept track of.

probably doesnt help with anything,but im trying to keep out of the main argument here. I know that on the racecourses, the worst thing that they can do is not say anything at all.

In fact - as I type this, a horse has gone down in the stalls in the guineas - grey pearl. Nobody yp at the course has any idea what is going on, and all that does is leave racing open to peoples imaginations. Bad move Newmarket/BHA
 
Racergirl said:
Oh - and the most up to date list (that Im aware of) of horses injured and dead (both at home and on a racecourse) or retired is actually on a racing forum Im a regular on,people regualy contact trainers of injured horses to ask how they are (and trainers are 99% of the time happy to answer and are touched that joe public do actually care) - between the flat and NH this year so far its almost certainally more than 50, I will go off and count them up. The only way for racing to hopefully keep its critics happy (and the bashers bashing,cos lets face it - they arent ever going to change!) is to be as open as they can be. Weatherbys require ALL passports of any registered TB, in training or not, to be returned to them so that they can ammend all their records accordingly - likewise, whenever a filly/mare goes off to stud you have to re-register them as a broodmare - again, so they can be kept track of.

probably doesnt help with anything,but im trying to keep out of the main argument here. I know that on the racecourses, the worst thing that they can do is not say anything at all.

In fact - as I type this, a horse has gone down in the stalls in the guineas - grey pearl. Nobody yp at the course has any idea what is going on, and all that does is leave racing open to peoples imaginations. Bad move Newmarket/BHA
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Just watching this - I agree, the silence over what's happened is wrong. Apparently she just collapsed.
 
OP- here's something to consider, a horse that breaks down at a racetrack doesn't suffer long, whereas a horse that is fatally injured in a field or stable at home may have a suffering wait of many hours til they are (a) found by their owner (b) despatched by a vet. Having waited that long wait with my friend's beloved boy and nothing we could do to ease his suffering I would say that is worth considering in any discussion about the "evils" of racing.

Another thing to consider is that without the racing industry our own horses would not have many of the medical treatments available to them that they do.
 
Ok Over2You, yes, fifty horses in five months is horrid, even if it had been one, it would still be upsetting, no one is denying that.

The BHA is always trying to find ways to improve tracks and prevent these accidents happening. Trainers, owners, grooms and the jockeys are always working to make sure their horses come home safe and sound.

I am pro racing, but i hate seeing horses take crashing falls. It can happen anywhere, i saw a terrible fall at a Riding Club show in March which could have easily killed both the horse and rider, fortunately they were not.

I do understand that you have a strong opinion about racing but some of your arguments have been ridiculous. Instead of just looking on websites which can give misleading information i really do think you should visit a racing yard. see their horses and the level of care they get and get a trainers/grooms/owners/jockeys view on things.

Horses will still die in racing, you wont stop that and you will never see racing banned. If racing was banned, all other disciplines will also need to be banned as will all horse riding as there is risk in all things to do with horses.
 
cptrayes said:
You have to be kidding me!

You ask me if I have ever been to bloodstock sales (yes, often, and bought, and sold) and then you say this ^^^

Have you got your eyes wide shut??????

Both Ascot and Doncaster sell unwarranted horses. At Ascot they are declared as unwarranted. At Doncaster they are sold "subject to vet" on the day by vets at the sales, and if not declared as subject to vet they are completely unwarranted.

And I can guarantee you from personal experience that a number of those unwarranted horses will be suffering from performance affecting problems which happen not to show in the sales environment. I bought a 4 year old with such a laryngeal paralysis problem that he could not canter at all. A friend bought a chaser with an unstable sacroiliac joint who was never able to race and was shot after a few months attempting to get him right. That friend also went to buy a pointer privately and was refused a blood test during the vetting. He walked away and the horse went through the subsequent Doncaster auction and was returned again to the one after that.

You live in a fairy dairy land if you think no horse unfit to race again goes through Doncaster or Ascot.
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I have to agree. I have known of several horses sold with debilitating conditions. We have one here, sired by Kahyasi but not raced. He passed through two private homes in five months after being sold at auction. He was bought out of a field by my livery client but proved unridable due to severe kissing spine.
 
Alec Swan said:
I've asked this before, and I'm working on the basis, that rather like the irritating child who continues to ask the same question, again and again, in the hope of an answer;

Can someone please explain to me just why anyone takes Over2You, and his or her inane statements seriously, and credits them with reasoned replies?

Alec.
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Moomin1 said:
Surely you all realise that this is exactly what OP is wanting?!! Lots of interest and reactions?!:rolleyes:
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Well HOO-BLOODY-RAY, FINALLY A VOTE OF CONFIDENCE!!

I've felt like a voice in the wilderness. Please boys and girls, wake up; Over2You is a TROLL.

I have yet to read one single constructive or sensible response from our troll, and yet everyone seems hell bent on pandering to his/her lunacy. WHY?

Alec.
 
I do agree with you Alec.

but it is keeping me entertained, all of this...badminton cancelled so i had no plans and so i wanted to feed some trolls :D
 
Caledonia said:
Racehorse deaths are recorded. No other sport is.

Until there is a comparable record of the fate of ALL event horses, SJ, DR, Endurance etc, racing will always be open to biased criticism from the likes of yourself who abuse the fact that racing is the only responsible body recording every horse that competes, and make it to be a crime.
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I probably shouldn't bite, but this isn't entirely true.

EGB holds details of any at their events. In this country we don't quite go as far as they do in the states where any horse that dies within a week (I believe) of an event has to be reported to the governing body even if the cause is totally unrelated, but we certainly have the details of any that died at the event. Luckily they are very few and far between, and mostly they are down to tragic accidents that could happen anywhere: a kick, an RTA, a horse that fell in the horsebox. We are very privileged to have intensive veterinary support before, during and after rides, and we are the only sport out there where you get failed if your horse isn't fit to continue at the end. What that means is that for a 100 miler, at the final vetting the vets will only pass those who are fit to do another 15 miles.
 
EstherYoung said:
we are the only sport out there where you get failed if your horse isn't fit to continue at the end. What that means is that for a 100 miler, at the final vetting the vets will only pass those who are fit to do another 15 miles.
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What a good practice. :)
 
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