The adolescent collie...

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BBP

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Little collie dog is just the best, all the things that stressed me out when he was a pup haven’t necessarily disappeared but are no longer a big deal. He’s an absolute delight in the house, good with the cats (unless they leg it), quiet, chills happily. Brilliant on long line out on walks, polite with other dogs, either ignores them or plays nicely if there is an invitation to do so. Excellent ‘cafe/pub dog’ Not yet great with the horses but much less reactive on seeing them, met one that was out on a hack whilst we were on a walk the other day and he was very good waiting next to me whilst it passed. My own horses are a work in progress, he will throw a tantrum/get stressed if he’s alone and sees me with them (eg if I try to leave him in crate in car in the field where he can see whilst I do ponies he has a sh*t fit to the point of hurting himself, but is ok with me doing ponies if my partner is here and ‘working’ him. Currently it’s just me and the dog so I’m leaving him at home whilst I do ponies and then bringing him up later just to work him near them. He still has some other impulse control issues, in that if off lead I’m sure he would happily run for miles after a bird in flight, or after a car, until he dropped or got run over. I’m happy that we are generally doing the right things as he is getting better and better, so I guess all I’m looking for is some reassurance that it’s not unusual to have a 16month old that is still on a long line all the time? Being show line he has a massive amount of chase drive but perhaps not as sharp as a working collie (I say perhaps to be kind to him!) and although we have worked very hard to build toy drive he still isn’t massively interested in them in many scenarios. I’m going through the Total Recall book now to pick up on areas I’ve missed in proofing.

So yes, please can the experienced dog owners amongst you tell me that even with your experience you have had errant adolescents who came good to be trustworthy members of society?!

The Disney Dog himself:
 

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I have a rough x border collie and she was born ready trained. However, as a very young dog, she thought every one in the world loved her and was as delighted to see her as she was to see them. Unfortunately we live in an area where a lot of chinese students like to picnic by the lakes. Many of them were very dog phobic and I remember her bouncing over to one group and joining them on their picnic blanket. One poor girl was so terrified that she literally tried to climb up her boyfriend as though he was a tree.
Needless to say, Mouse learnt a life lesson that day. Picnics are by invitation only.
 
I would worry that you could be setting him up to spending his life on a lead. The older he gets the harder it will be for you to let him go free and to trust him. I have had lots of collies and never have them on a lead unless on a road and I take them out without a lead almost from day 1. I have never had a problem with a dog disappearing and are you sure that the problem is with you and not your dog........trust works both ways !
 
bonny said:
I would worry that you could be setting him up to spending his life on a lead. The older he gets the harder it will be for you to let him go free and to trust him. I have had lots of collies and never have them on a lead unless on a road and I take them out without a lead almost from day 1. I have never had a problem with a dog disappearing and are you sure that the problem is with you and not your dog........trust works both ways !
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Got to say I completely disagree (although I accept I am not an experienced dog owner and have come looking for support/advice rather than thinking I know it all). The older he gets the more I should be able to trust him as the training gets more and more consolidated. Do you suggest that I just let him tear around after birds and cars? If you have training suggestions I would be happy to hear them but just taking the lead off and letting him get on with it isn’t going to happen. I’m also not sure what your last sentence means?
 
BBP said:
Got to say I completely disagree (although I accept I am not an experienced dog owner and have come looking for support/advice rather than thinking I know it all). The older he gets the more I should be able to trust him as the training gets more and more consolidated. Do you suggest that I just let him tear around after birds and cars? If you have training suggestions I would be happy to hear them but just taking the lead off and letting him get on with it isn’t going to happen. I’m also not sure what your last sentence means?
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I mean, you have to trust him to want to stay with you and if you don’t then I can’t see when or how you will let him off. Collies are faithful dogs, it’s hard to explain but I have always trusted mine and they have never let me down. I don’t think it’s got anything to do with training, you don’t train a dog to stay with you they just want to. Maybe your dog might surprise you ?
 
Chasing/impulse control isn't something I have a huge amount of experience in dealing with so I won't offer any advice (and someone more suitable will come along shortly anyway, I'm sure) but I just wanted to say that this...

bonny said:
I don’t think it’s got anything to do with training, you don’t train a dog to stay with you they just want to.
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...ranks among the most bonkers things I've ever read on AAD and OP, you sound like you are doing a cracking job.
 
bonny said:
I mean, you have to trust him to want to stay with you and if you don’t then I can’t see when or how you will let him off. Collies are faithful dogs, it’s hard to explain but I have always trusted mine and they have never let me down. I don’t think it’s got anything to do with training, you don’t train a dog to stay with you they just want to. Maybe your dog might surprise you ?
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I see what you are saying. Unfortunately this dog has lost my trust a bit, for example on Sunday we went for a walk somewhere that I thought was pretty safe and I was feeling really confident in him so I dropped the long line and was practicing keeping him really engaged with me, keeping his attention and I was super proud that he was always checking in with me. And then a flock of birds lifted off from a wheat field and he was off like a rocket, leaving me about as effective as the infamous Fenton owner. He disappeared at full pelt across two fields and straight towards a road, with his eyes on the birds in the sky the entire time. He only turned when they did, nothing to do with me. And the only time he slipped his lead at the yard he went straight for a horses heels and got kicked. So honestly no, I don’t trust him not to get himself killed or not to chase whatever livestock he comes across yet, hence the long line, it’s 20m so it’s not like he can’t run around and sniff and feel relatively free. Like I say although he’s awesome and far from stupid, he isn’t as quick to learn as my working line collie was, but his drive is very very high, common sense not so much.
 
blackcob said:
Chasing/impulse control isn't something I have a huge amount of experience in dealing with so I won't offer any advice (and someone more suitable will come along shortly anyway, I'm sure) but I just wanted to say that this...



...ranks among the most bonkers things I've ever read on AAD and OP, you sound like you are doing a cracking job.
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We can only really talk from our own experiences, I have owned collies all my life and I have never trained a dog to be around me on a walk .....why is it bonkers to say that, it’s true !
 
Is it possible you could hire an enclosed field where you can work on recall? We have a husky, who typically has a high prey drive. She has fab recall until something puts up to chase, and then she’s deaf as a post. I’m lucky in that she had a scare as pup from the electric fence that she thinks a horse did, so she’s off lead all the time at the horses as stays well away from them, but field is totally enclosed. That is where I really trained her recall. She is always on the long line out and about though.

We now have Bo, the 4yo Collie. He has worked sheep in the past, so can’t have him off lead at the horses as he instinctively tries to herd them, and has been kicked a couple of times. I don’t want him or her horses hurt. Out and about (away from roads) he is off lead all the time. If we see horses in the distance, I will call him back and put on lead until they’ve passed, and obviously around sheep etc he’s on lead. He never seems to have the urge to chase birds, rabbits etc.
 
Seminars coming soon I'm sure :)

Check out Craig Ogilvie if you haven't already in terms of building toy drive. It's definitely something that can be harnessed.
It should clear by now when he's about to 'go'...what actually do you do when he's off or about to be off and running?

My 8yo is on a long flexi (stop laughing, veteran AADers :p) unless he's in an enclosed area or somewhere where I can see all around. I'm sure it's down to my failure as a trainer and not the fact that he's bred from generations of overly independent, hard-headed dogs, so if anyone thinks they can do a better job of training the feral furry fruitloop than I can, they can feel free lol.
 
He's gorgeous as ever ❤

No tips I'm afraid, but on the plus side at least yours has a valid reason for running off....Some days the westie will look me square in the face when I call her from no more than 30m away before tootling off in the other direction - if she could lob a v at me she would 😂. I can always get her back if I really need to with my murder death kill voice, but then that voice has been known to bring grown men to tears so I'm not sure it's much of a training achievement. (tbf to her, she never runs off out walking, just at home).

I'm sure he'll get there - he sounds like he needs to get into the routine of things before he accepts and just does them, like everything asked of him has to be achievable on auto-pilot.
 
i have a border collie cross, she is 3/4 bc and she arrived at 8 weeks and seems to have trained herself. she always wants to be with me and only needs to be told anything once. i was very lucky, i then got a small terrier cross to keep her company as i had lost my lurcher and didnt want a big dog to dominate her. the terrier makes her get off the sofa by just going and sitting there looking at her and she gets off and gives in to him. she is very submissive and never argues with him.. the terrier however has been a challenge as i had forgotten how wilful they can be, he seems to have suddenly grown up and now looks back to check where i am and comes as soon as he is called, he is just 2 and i am hoping this is a permanent change for the better. you may find your collie improves with age, good luck
 
My friend's collies had always been how bonny described until the latest addition (she has 3 currently). She's just really not that bothered about people at all and has required far more input than the other 2 or any of their numerous predecessors.
 
CorvusCorax said:
Seminars coming soon I'm sure :)

Check out Craig Ogilvie if you haven't already in terms of building toy drive. It's definitely something that can be harnessed.
It should clear by now when he's about to 'go'...what actually do you do when he's off or about to be off and running?

My 8yo is on a long flexi (stop laughing, veteran AADers :p) unless he's in an enclosed area or somewhere where I can see all around. I'm sure it's down to my failure as a trainer and not the fact that he's bred from generations of overly independent, hard-headed dogs, so if anyone thinks they can do a better job of training the feral furry fruitloop than I can, they can feel free lol.
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We did a workshop with Craig at the end of last summer which has really helped, he’s much more playful and interested in being with us than he was so I’m feeling really positive, but right now I’m still not as fun as the buzz of chasing a bird in flight.

Right before he ‘went’ the other day, I had been working really intensively at keeping him engaged, calling him back before he got too far away and was really pleased at how brilliantly he was staying with me. Loads of treats and games and rewards every time he checked in, playing with waits and stays and sniffing searching games. But if I’m honest, right before he went I took my eye off the ball. I was just thinking to myself, we are getting a bit near to the roads, I should turn around now and whilst I was dithering over to turn back I quit engaging with him, by the time I re-engaged my brain he was in a fast trot and then bad timing with the birds and I lost him. So my fault for not paying attention. Once he ran off I probably did the wrong stuff. I tried whistle recall. Nothing. I tried voice of doom shout to snap him out of it. Nothing. And then he was going so far so fast that I ran after him to try to get near enough to grab him. Fortunately the birds then turned and he started back towards me, and then got his eyes on me and came racing back. Rightly or wrongly I then told him how brilliant he was for coming back and rewarded his return. We then went back to working on the long line and playing some more searches.

I’m really fortunate that we have just bought a lovely big stock fenced field that he can run off lead in, so we get to practice recall there (with birds and cars to battle against) so I figure once we nail it there then I will feel more confident. it’s about 40mins from where I live now and the horses will move there in a couple of months so we won’t have free roam but until then I am taking him there whenever I can.
 
Humour me for a minute.....what would happen if you just went for a walk, it just all sounds so complicated your relationship with him. Have you ever just walked along and just left him to do the same ? Do you really think that he would just take off and never come back ?
 
bonny said:
Humour me for a minute.....what would happen if you just went for a walk, it just all sounds so complicated your relationship with him. Have you ever just walked along and just left him to do the same ? Do you really think that he would just take off and never come back ?
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If I left him to do the same yes, he would disappear off. He may come back or he may get hit by a car. It’s not at all complicated. I’m trying to be a responsible owner instead of letting him sod off across other people’s property.
 
BBP said:
We did a workshop with Craig at the end of last summer which has really helped, he’s much more playful and interested in being with us than he was so I’m feeling really positive, but right now I’m still not as fun as the buzz of chasing a bird in flight.

Right before he ‘went’ the other day, I had been working really intensively at keeping him engaged, calling him back before he got too far away and was really pleased at how brilliantly he was staying with me. Loads of treats and games and rewards every time he checked in, playing with waits and stays and sniffing searching games. But if I’m honest, right before he went I took my eye off the ball. I was just thinking to myself, we are getting a bit near to the roads, I should turn around now and whilst I was dithering over to turn back I quit engaging with him, by the time I re-engaged my brain he was in a fast trot and then bad timing with the birds and I lost him. So my fault for not paying attention. Once he ran off I probably did the wrong stuff. I tried whistle recall. Nothing. I tried voice of doom shout to snap him out of it. Nothing. And then he was going so far so fast that I ran after him to try to get near enough to grab him. Fortunately the birds then turned and he started back towards me, and then got his eyes on me and came racing back. Rightly or wrongly I then told him how brilliant he was for coming back and rewarded his return. We then went back to working on the long line and playing some more searches.

I’m really fortunate that we have just bought a lovely big stock fenced field that he can run off lead in, so we get to practice recall there (with birds and cars to battle against) so I figure once we nail it there then I will feel more confident. it’s about 40mins from where I live now and the horses will move there in a couple of months so we won’t have free roam but until then I am taking him there whenever I can.
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Well that sounds quite understandable, and not that unusual for a young, high drive dog. I'm sure he'll be much more solid in a year or so.
 
I am no help but I can offer moral support thanks to a 17 month of whippet x Saluki who is 100% engaged until he isn’t. He now only goes off lead in the freedom field or at Flyball/toss and fetch. Unfortunately training normally results in on run then zoomies but we’re working on it :rolleyes:
 
I actually agree with Bonnie, which is no doubt why I was a complete failure as a spaniel owner! The labs, and before that the kelpies, Doberman, terriers and even the lurcher (but you did have to keep watch at the horizon) used to just bimble along with us on a walk. I can't think of anything harder than wanting to train a dog to just be with you but be chilled.
Collies shouldn't be that bad? My mum has rescue collies and all are off lead from a week or even less.
My MIL doesn't let hers off the lead while they are young and I do think that teaches them that off lead you do what you like, although now hers are four and eight they are pretty good. (Border teriers).
I do train recall and stop, but not 'hey just be with me and don't bugger off'.
 
I think it’s hard to generalise.
Yes I do know some dogs who just naturally stay near their owners. Some are gun dogs trained from a young age, but naturally picked it up fast and barely ever on a lead.
But I know some with no training who naturally stick like glue- my father in laws spitz is his shadow. Has never had anything resembling training! But my mum in laws Shetland sheeps dogs (also with no training. They just hope for the best) are complete opposites. One will naturally walk next to you, the other will bigger off and ignore you completely if she feels like it.

I have A rescue collie who we got ages two and who had literally been out the house a handful of times in two years. So had to start from the beginning. In the first 6 months we had two times she took off due to fright. And then one time to chase a deer- the first two times members of public caught her not far from me and rang me. One time was by the road and really scared me. She was on a long line as just a few weeks in. But she took off at such a rate I didn’t grab her in time (it was on the floor by me not being held at the time in a field). But gradually I built trust and she built her love of us and desire to come back even if she goes ahead a bit to hunt for mice or play. She will take a treat but isn’t a foodie. Unlike my second regimes lab who is bribed with food! But again does have a desire to come back.

I did use a tracker for a bit for piece of mind.

It’s very tricky as you don’t want to result in a dead dog frankly! But they have to learn at some point. I have done long line held, for weeks. Then for a few months long line would be attached but on the floor for a bit of resistance and something to grab if needed. Before no lead on well known walks.

There in my opinion can be an age thing when they really do grow up and can control their urges more aged 2-3 ish
 
I appreciate I sound really harsh, I have been thinking about this this morning. I have said on here before I think dogs need to learn to be relaxed, if it doesn't come to them naturally. If they are never allowed to just amble along smelling the roses (or pee, more like) , their brain doesn't unwind. It would be like having a child and expecting it to be in a pitch of excitement the whole time, sometimes you want to be able to be with said child and it just read a book.
 
My oversharp spaniel is still on a long line in some circumstances and he’s 3 next month! Don’t be embarrassed about it just keep you and him safe and appreciate the journey. We’ve done a couple of Craig clinics and he’s awesome (both the dog and the trainer!) but in real life I can’t work him 3 times a day for 15min in an enclosed space with progressive distractions to get to the real Velcro dog stage.
 
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Clodagh said:
I actually agree with Bonnie, which is no doubt why I was a complete failure as a spaniel owner! The labs, and before that the kelpies, Doberman, terriers and even the lurcher (but you did have to keep watch at the horizon) used to just bimble along with us on a walk. I can't think of anything harder than wanting to train a dog to just be with you but be chilled.
Collies shouldn't be that bad? My mum has rescue collies and all are off lead from a week or even less.
My MIL doesn't let hers off the lead while they are young and I do think that teaches them that off lead you do what you like, although now hers are four and eight they are pretty good. (Border teriers).
I do train recall and stop, but not 'hey just be with me and don't bugger off'.
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I guess that’s my point though, the recall and stop are currently lacking, despite training, so to let him off completely would be allowing him to streak off into the distance and across other people’s property. The portion of the walk described above was purely proactively working the recall and proximity stuff. He spends heaps of time on the long line just sniffing and peeing and hanging out, but one bird and he is gone (much like a sighthound with a rabbit). I’m not clear from your post how you would tackle it, it sounds like I’m a bad dog owner for not just letting him go and do his own thing? But then there are a gazillion posts on here about shit dog owners who let their badly trained dogs just run riot and get in other dogs faces. Perhaps you’re right and collies should be easy and I’m just doing a crappy job.
 
have you tried teaching a 'leave' command? rightly or wrongly, if mine see something they might find attractive telling them to leave it breaks the moment and then I call them back (if I dont have the whistle, Quarrie did a 6 week recall training/conditioning program with a whistle). I find the leave command useful for all sorts of situations-stuff I dont want them the eat, the farmer and their BCs on the quad, cyclists (Fitz) and old cans of Scrumpy Jack (Quarrie) and kami kaze ducks. So when one of the young ducks flew into the dog pen, they got a leave command in the death voice, then drop and stay. I was very proud that it worked!

maybe instead of really concentrating on recall, train something else such as leave/down/sit that gives you a moment to stop the 'wahey I'm running' vibe and the endorphins kicking in -still continue with the recall but take the pressure off. I know how bad recall can make you feel -I had a setter :D

I dont know the trainer you're talking about but have you done much impulse control with him? I pretty much did nothing else with Q for about a year -everyone says golden retrievers are easy but that dog is one of the most athletic dogs I've met, I've not met a fence, wall, ditch, bramble patch or fallen tree that he can't just scale or work his way over unscathed and (I think) he has a high drive. We clicked when we started training with what he found most rewarding (I am slow on the uptake) and that was dummies. He knows if he is good and waits/behaves/ walks to heel (I cani crossed him, huge mistake with a dog that already thought he should do everything at 100mph) then he gets to retrieve. I am not suggesting you do this, just that once you find his thing it will help and that thing may even be chasing (ie a ball) its just chanelling it.
 
BBP said:
I guess that’s my point though, the recall and stop are currently lacking, despite training, so to let him off completely would be allowing him to streak off into the distance and across other people’s property. The portion of the walk described above was purely proactively working the recall and proximity stuff. He spends heaps of time on the long line just sniffing and peeing and hanging out, but one bird and he is gone (much like a sighthound with a rabbit). I’m not clear from your post how you would tackle it, it sounds like I’m a bad dog owner for not just letting him go and do his own thing? But then there are a gazillion posts on here about shit dog owners who let their badly trained dogs just run riot and get in other dogs faces. Perhaps you’re right and collies should be easy and I’m just doing a crappy job.
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Sorry, they were just my muzings. I really didn't intend to offend and I know he is your first dog.
 
I have had all kinds of dog, from the border collie who never left us and worked the cattle without ever having any training apart from learning his name, via the programmable easy to train German shepherd to the bonker lurchers I now have. You just do what you have to do with the dog in front of you and your priority with your dog right now is keeping him safe, you can't train a dead dog. Also the more a dog practises a behaviour, i.e. bogging off, the more he is likely to keep doing it, so I would think the long line right now is eminently sensible. There is a huge amount of training videos and books nowadays to teach recall and impulse control, just keep at it, it does take time and dedication with some dogs but they are all rewarding in their own way, even if it is only because of the steep learning curve they put us through. An enclosed space is a great help with an independent minded dog, even just once a week, to safely introduce recall and impulse control with planned increasing distractions.
 
All driven dogs need to learn to have an 'off switch' on command.....I want to stop and talk to someone, dog needs to be able to switch off from whatever he was doing previously, including hunting, and chill by my side.

Can go into how I do this later if you are interested/think it appropriate in your case. My scenario is however gun dogs.

I am soooooo not a collie person....never owned one, but have seen a few work with them/been involved in helping re-home some failed pet acquisitions. One was turned around by giving it an outlet for its herding/chase instinct as follows. Six large inflatable balls all grouped together....owner kicks one....oh bugger mate, you've let one of them escape! Dog runs out and 'herds' said ball back to group. Repeat ad infinitum. Dog thought it now had a job in life and so long as it was allowed to work its balls every day, it became very compliant in other walks of life and stopped chasing cars etc.

You need to think border collie I would suggest.....and not just plain old dog. He was bred to do a specific job, so give him a job to do. He thinks he is doing the right thing running off after the 'escaped' bird or whatever. :)

I hope you get some responses though from those on the forum that work their collies.
 
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