The annual stallion search

[BSM456]

I'm seeing that we're now into the annual pre season stallion search, with many now asking for advice.

These are just some thoughts I have over the last few days having read some of the posts.

Why are any of us looking at young unproven stallions?

Why are any of us using our mares uteruses as test beds for these unproven stallions?
our mares produce one foal a year, shouldn't we make it the best we can?

Why are we using stallions who's fathers (the proven part of the equation) are only a little bit more expensive?
example - Chacco Blue is more expensive than his very proven father Chambertin

Are we looking at stallions based on whether we like them because they're pretty or "just down the road", or because they are actually going to add any value to the stock that we are creating?
this game is so expensive, that surely we should be looking to put stock on the ground that is going to make us some money (or lose us a bit less than normal)

With thousands of British buyers going abroad to buy horses, shouldn't we be trying to create youngstock that will attract them?
this follows on from the discussion about recent auctions, and that auction houses are not "supporting" British bred horses. The answer is pretty simple, there are a few breeders who produce some super stock in the UK, but it's not the job of an auction house to make a loss for the sake of the rest of the breeders who don't produce commercially viable horses.

Does the stallion that you intend/are thinking about using have factual information about his performance, and that of his production? Where does he stand in the world rankings or national rankings?
is the information that you get from a stallion owner/agent actually verifiable, or just plain old fashioned BS? Are you being given fact or opinion?
<font color="red">
Please remember that these are open questions, NOT statements, so please respond accordingly. If you don't agree with something someone has written, CAN IT. This thread is not designed to cause a war. </font>

 

[SSM]

As I start my search for a perfect stallion there are a few criteria it must match up to;

MUST BE CLEVELAND BAY

Forward going, short backed and of course Cleveland Bay

 

[rosiew]

This is such a thought provoking thread!

I only breed a couple of foals a year, essentially for jumping with the possibility of eventing if they have enough blood. Choosing stallions is such a mine field for the amateur, and I hate the way that we don't have access to proper information in the UK, the Europeans seem to have such good systems.

1 - I have used younger stallions, but then get very envious of people who use the famous boys and sell the foals for loads. Millfield Stud always use top stallions and they got nearly £12000 for a foal at Addington, I think the answer is obvious. This year I used Chicago I Z, but for another 300€ I could have had Coriano Z who is in the top 30 in the world and from a great motherline.

2 - Yes, this is such an expensive business, especially the huge vets fees we pay each year which take all the profit out of a foal. A friend of mine spent £3000 in vets fees and has no foal coming, she had spent 1600€ on the semen (which was tested at 70% PTM), thank god she had live foal guarantee. So I won't be giving these young stallions free uterine promotional space in 2009. I see that Zangersheide will have Calato for 2009, if he's the same price as Coriano Z (1200€) he has to be an option.

3 - It drives me mad when I see buyers going abroad, but if we aren't making horses that they want to buy, then it's our fault. We can't just sit there whinging about the situation and not do something that attracts them.

4 - I get approached by stallion owners from time to time, and I hate how they have all the chat but no facts or substance. In fact I've even been lied to about some stallions performances, like saying he went "advanced" when in fact he just sat at a lower level and built up his points. It's such a shame that we don't have credible information about British stallions, it's what makes me go abroad for my semen all the time.

BSM, one thing you didn't talk about was how the semen is sold, ie doses or live foal guarantee. I would always take LFG over doses.

 

[lynwood]

This is probably going set the cat amongst the pidgeons so here go as I only have 5 mins to write this before I go back outside!

Young unproven stallions- I love using, I do this because I love it, it makes breeding exciting and I believe in the bloodlines and stallions I am using. There is nothing more rewarding than using a young stallion before he hits the big time. My cheeky side but - I love it when people are spending £1500 on his stud fee when 4-5 yrs ago I spent £500 because I believed in him. With this style of breeding I also take my chances that they might disappear to outer mongolia, but I still believe they are a good stallion and will produce a great foal. As your statement said this game is so expensive, that surely we should be looking to put stock on the ground that is going to make us some money (or lose us a bit less than normal)

In regards to Chacco examples simple answer you use them instead of their father because you believe the contribution of their dam line is important to your breeding as well as the sire line. I also believe you have to take a chance on todays blood and not just yesterdays blood to move forwards. Although I do believe using an older stallion should be used in a programme where you believe he will still make a strong contribution.

Auctions- It is hard it is more expensive to breed over here and therefore it is harder to accept the low prices for stock that is not as good. People often miss that a lot of stock sell for 4-5000 euro they just see the big figures

I think there is some very good stock being bred but they do not have the opportunities through the system as they grow up and then they get lost and never make it. Its the continents system through from foals to Grand Prix that makes them successful. I dont find our systems of evaluation which have been in place in one format or another for quit a while now are proving to find and nurture the horses which are likely to have a future (Please dont shoot me down in flames just my opinion!)

Generally I dont talk to stallion owners about rankings and figures because with all statistics in every sphere they can be manipulated to someones gain, I talk to stallion owners and agents about temperament and recommendations etc. As with all business I use people I trust and I feel are giving me the full picture I like people to talk about stallions strengths and weaknesses. If I judge someone wrong than I learn a hard lesson and dont deal with them again.

I follow the theory that I use a stallion and bloodlines that I like that suit my breeding programme, I may use a few stats to support my decision but not world and national rankings more tests results, money earned and number of youngstock out jumping, all those can be found very easily on the internet rather than using biased information from stallion owners or agents.

 

[Ladyfresha1]

I am using a young stallion next year - my own. He has one foal on the ground this year (who has won every youngstock and coloured class entered plus many championships) and one due next year to a Ramiro mare. I am covering my own mare. Both horses are extremely well bred for Show Jumping but if there is no market for the foal I will keep it and produce and sell when it is older. I am not a stud, I am however looking at the future, in it for the long haul not just to sell something for lots of money.

In the future I aim to breed outstanding horses, world class horses,but everyone has to start somewhere. I am starting with some fantastic and proven bloodlines (both in competition and for producing competative animals). Over the next few years I will expand and introduce some new blood to my little herd.

Yes it's an expensive game but it is how I choose to spend my hard earned cash.

At the end of the day if we only used proven and highly ranked stallions we would end up with no new blood coming through. We would all eventually be sitting on the same horse. It also gives purchasers a choice. Not everyone wants an expensive Olympic bred foal, there are markets out there for nice young riding and pony club horses and someone has to breed these also!

Just my opinion but I like to look at the big picture. Yes we need to up our game but we also need to keep our eyes and ears open to the next up and coming best thing or we will once again be left behind.

 

[volatis]

I have to say I am totally on Lynwood with this one, on two main points. One the use of young stallions. If I have a broodmare that I know her family and what she produces then heck yes I will take the risk on a young stallion, if he satisfys my own criteria. And I hope my judgement will be justified when I get the foal I expected/hoped for.
I have to say two young stallions I adored at their licensings and through ther first few seasons at stud, but never bred to as I didnt have the right mare, were Couleur Rouge and Cornets Stern. I watched CR's stud fee go up and up to the point I porbably couldnt afford him, and watched him come out on the international circuit. CS is only young but I remember just how felt when I first saw him, and then to see him go and win the 5yo Bundeschampionate this year. Bet his stud fee will be out of reach too by the time I have a mare to use that suits him.

Also I do speak to people in the industry whose judgement I trust on their observations on stallions and their stock, and try and get to as see as many as I can in the flesh. Sometimes I want to add something to my breeding program from an older establised stallion and then I have a prety good idea of what he should give me. Sometimes I will use a young and unproven one, as I believe in him.

 

[magic104]

Why are any of us looking at young unproven stallions? – Because despite your comments below they are often cheaper to use then their sires &amp; some of us are happy to take the gamble rather then pay say in my case 1200 on a mare with no proven breeding

Why are any of us using our mares uteruses as test beds for these unproven stallions?
our mares produce one foal a year, shouldn't we make it the best we can? – Great except someone has to take the gamble &amp; so long as the stallion compliments the mare, has a good temperament &amp; conformation why is it any less a gamble. Not all the greats have passed on their talents.

Why are we using stallions who's fathers (the proven part of the equation) are only a little bit more expensive? – Not always the case at all
example - Chacco Blue is more expensive than his very proven father Chambertin – One example

Are we looking at stallions based on whether we like them because they're pretty or "just down the road", or because they are actually going to add any value to the stock that we are creating? – I think this is on the decrease, but it happens all over &amp; it has in the past produced good results. Sometimes it takes a bit of luck along with good production &amp; gut feeling.


this game is so expensive, that surely we should be looking to put stock on the ground that is going to make us some money (or lose us a bit less than normal) - Not all of us breed for money, most of use realise that we would be very lucky to make back the cost of keep if we did not sell them as foals

With thousands of British buyers going abroad to buy horses, shouldn't we be trying to create youngstock that will attract them? – Oh that would be all the hype about how much better Europe are, how about we promote our youngstock. How about we get the government to back the breeding industry, how about coming together to build on what we have instead of denouncing it all the time.

You sound like Ken &amp; though I dont have a problem with your or anyones views, I am fed up with being told we are 2nd class because we dont do it your way. If I had my own facilties then it would be worth have an expensive breeding programme, but I like many are at the mercy of a livery yard &amp; all that comes with it. Unlike most I have my own turnout, but I have still had my youngsters injured. I think I would be pig sick if I had paid 1000+ on stud fees. Some people seem to think just because you are a single mare owner who breeds the odd foal that you never do your homework. You people seem to think that it is a whim, that there is no consideration on improving on the mare. Well that is a very narrow point of view. It is all very well breeding these superb horses but what about the homes they are going to end up at, because they sure as hell are not all going to go to top riders/producers.

 

[lynwood]

I think you said a few the extra things I wanted to say but couldnt think of the words well done!

 

[magic104]

You are spot on Lynwood, how many stallions have started their career in the 100's to end up in the 1000's &amp; for those that took the gamble to be laughing their socks off !!

 

[toffeesmarty]

[ QUOTE ]





You sound like Ken &amp; though I don't have a problem with your or anyones views, I am fed up with being told we are 2nd class because we dont do it your way.
Some people seem to think just because you are a single mare owner who breeds the odd foal that you never do your homework. You people seem to think that it is a whim, that there is no consideration on improving on the mare. Well that is a very narrow point of view. It is all very well breeding these superb horses but what about the homes they are going to end up at, because they sure as hell are not all going to go to top riders/producers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haven't the time to answer every question but wanted to endorse Magic 104 by saying I am also a one foal breeder. Since this years foal landed on the straw I have been researching the next one. If everyone used the same well known and established stallions new and up coming ones wouldn't get a chance. If it was the right stallion for the right mare, yes I would consider it.
BTW - You don't think he shouldn't be named is back again do you?

 

[lynwood]

This is making me chuckle- It shows we can all come together when we dont agree with something to do with our industry!

 

[southsidestud]

[ QUOTE ]
You are spot on Lynwood, how many stallions have started their career in the 100's to end up in the 1000's &amp; for those that took the gamble to be laughing their socks off !!

[/ QUOTE ]Exactley what i was saying on my thread" what does everyone thing of this stallion" i think the gamble is worth it using a young stallion they all start off as unproven and when they become something the stud fee rockets to alot that so many peope cant afford for me personally i would do a mix this year i will use a few young stallions and 2 better well known ones and at the end of the day ive seen a no of horses with very good breeding that become"just average" run of the mill horses i think taking a gamgle pays for some thrown in with bit of good luck,being in the right place at the right time and a bit of gut feeling for measure and bobs ya uncle fannys ya aunt!

 

[LynneB]

as with Lynwood and many others I use unproven stallions (competition result wise) from excellent bloodlines. I choose well and have faith in their future ability and I always see a previous foal from them - or more if I can, to see if their offspring are what I am looking for.

I only have 2 mares, but they are both from very good and proven bloodlines, I choose a stallion to match their abilities. For example, one is definitely a dressage girl and I choose proven dressage lines for her. My other is a jumper and for her I choose a proven showjumping line. It doesn't get more complicated than that for me. I do not mind how much of a stud fee I pay as long as I am getting a stallion I want (not silly money though and definitely not over £1500). I am not intending to sell, so if the foal I produce does not end up being top of the range in competition, it only concerns me, no one else is affected - but they will always have a home with me. As for one that is down the road, it isn't an issue with AI but maybe I missed something there

 

[stolensilver]

The Dutch and the Germans are generally considered the leaders in sports horse breeding and they are the countries that support new sires more than any other. His Highness got 500 mares in his first season at stud, Hotline and Quaterback got similar numbers. This year Imperio has the hot ticket and he is already not available via frozen semen outside Germany due to demand 3 months before the breeding season actually starts! He is 5!

My biggest concern about breeding is when breeders use stallions that they have never seen. Stallion owners understandably keep their stallion's shortcomings quiet and finding out about soundness and temperament is extremely difficult. I don't think there is ever any substitute for seeing a stallion in the flesh and finding out what he is really like. I think this is the reason why using the "stallion down the road" worked so well for centuries. If you really know the stallion as well as really knowing your mare you are far more likely to choose a good match for her.

Something else to bear in mind is that outstanding foals are a very small % of all foals born. Germany breeds about 10x as many foals as the UK. If we assume that the quality of the breeding is the same that means that Germany will still produce 10x more outstanding foals than the UK.

Then there is the European advertising machine. Each and every victory a european stallion achieves is shouted from the rooftops. In the UK you have to search and delve to find out what a stallion and his progeny have actually done. Yet even in Europe with their scoring systems and their BLUP indexes top quality sires slip through the net. Blu Hors Silvermoon was one. Van Deyk was another. Who knows how many more Olympic showjumpers and dressage horses Salieri would have sired if he had been owned and marketed by Paul Schockemohle?

Breeding is a lottery which is part of the attraction. You might spot the perfect stallion for your mare and produce a foal better than either of the parents. To choose a recent example how many of us had heard of Last Man Standing? Someone had, 3 years ago and is now 1.1 million euros better off. Sometimes thinking outside the box pays dividends.

 

[no_no_nanette]

.... and following up on this StolenSilver, one of the great pleasures on dark winter evenings is doing the detective work online which, for instance, tells you that Blue Hors have just acquired a very, very nice colt (see Oldenburg stallion licencing thread) by Last Man Standing .... so do we get in early on this one????

I'm also really excited by discovering Yeguada Campos stallions, every one of whom is just mouthwatering - but I would say that, 'cos they very much concentrate on the pedigrees that appeal to us - but just check out Clarence C, and for an eventing sire Chepetto - and some of their up-and-coming stars are very tasty!

One of the articles on Tom's blog includes an interview with a wise old sage of the German breeding scene, who expresses concern that everyone is going for stallions from a very small number of "fashionable" lines on the continent, and over a period of time this is going to reduce the gene pool. So for those of us who are not professional breeders dependent on selling foals for good prices for our livelihood, we probably are able to "gamble" a little more, and how exciting when it pays off!!

 

[shirleyno2]

Breeding is always a gamble, you can find a horse with the "creme de la creme" of breeding on paper, and it could look like a mule AND be grumpy AND be talentless!!

I thouroughly enjoy the anticipation of "what wil come out" when using a young stallion - and sometimes get the shock of the morning when I've used a more proven one??!!

New blood is always good and most people can create the chance to meet the stallion in question if your really "breeding British" and he stands in UK, it's not that big an Island

 

[eventrider23]

As others have said, I do enjoy using young stallions....I am thoroughly happy with our babies this year by one of shirleyno2's young stallions El Thuder, who has all the pedigree, type, etc....just needs to get the record now....our two foals by him could not be better...and having been to Catherston and looked at their foal's last weekend, whilst of course I am biased, they measure up as good if not better than a lot of their foals who are by PROVEN stallions, etc.

 

[rosiew]

Everything I've read so far tells me exactly why thousands of buyers go to Europe every year, tells me why auction houses will not (in general) sell British bred stock. It's staring every British breeder in the face.

Of course we can put it all down to hype, but after 25 years of "fashion" that arguement is a touch threadbare don't you think?

Someone was talking about the Government should support the industry. OK, good idea. What have you done about it? What's your plan?

I keep the seeing the words "luck" and "gamble", but only in the British context. I don't think they use those words in Europe.

And the 1.1 million Euros? That wasn't what they paid, but it made everyone sit up and look didn't it!

 

[LynneB]

what have you read so far that tells you this? If you list them, others can answer your queries.

All breeding is luck in a way, as in any pregnancy, things can go wrong. You can breed to two fabulous parents and get a foal who is injured or damaged at birth. I have only read about people who are prepared to put money into their breeding, by carefully choosing stallions with good bloodlines and increase the quality of british bred horses. Just because they are "unproven" as yet in the competition arena does not mean they are ungraded from unknown bloodlines.

 

[nomis]

[ QUOTE ]
Everything I've read so far tells me exactly why thousands of buyers go to Europe every year, tells me why auction houses will not (in general) sell British bred stock. It's staring every British breeder in the face.

Of course we can put it all down to hype, but after 25 years of "fashion" that arguement is a touch threadbare don't you think?

Someone was talking about the Government should support the industry. OK, good idea. What have you done about it? What's your plan?

I keep the seeing the words "luck" and "gamble", but only in the British context. I don't think they use those words in Europe.

And the 1.1 million Euros? That wasn't what they paid, but it made everyone sit up and look didn't it!

[/ QUOTE ]


OK answer me one question then. Somebody has to use the "upproven young sires" that you and the OP keep on speaking about.......if not then how on earth does a stallion then become a breeding sensation......through Immaculate Conception!!

So all the superstars of breeding became superstars of breeding.....how??? Somebody had to use them for a start!!

How did Cornet Obolensky come to the fore in breeding considering he is a young stallion.....because breeders used him as an uproven sire.

And do you honestly believe that people have thousands of pounds in their back pockets to use on stallions that are around 3,000 euros for semen or have very poor semen.

AND I bet that you wont see them reduce their Stud Fees like the TB Studs have done considering the current climate!!

And you go on about the 1.1million euros that was not paid, but somebody had the foresight to use the stallion "Last Man Standing", even though he is relatively unheard of, and took the chance on their mare!


And I am sorry but the same people keep coming onto this forum, using the same context and writing styles (not to mention harpening on about the same things)....and it always ends up being either the name people no longer mention or one of his associates!

 

[magic104]

Have you signed up specially to have a go, gosh how sweet. If everyone one of our breed societies along with the BHS actually worked together &amp; put proposals forward, then why shouldn't the UK breeding industry get support from the government. It needs to be pointed out just how much the equine industry is worth to the UK economy. Even if it is a case of reduced rates, or tax off stud feed, &amp; support for better training of potential riders (&amp; not just for the Olympics). Whatever the solution, it certainly is not your attitude at bashing the UK breeder &amp; the product, you can go stick that where the sun don’t shine. I would rather people were educated because for the umpteenth time of saying this, there is so much crap imported into the UK just because it was bred elsewhere in Europe. The European brand or studbook does NOT equal good horse, bred outside the UK does NOT equal good horse. No one is saying they are not good at what they do, but their focus has had backing in the most part unlike our pathetic shower that only have short sighted outlooks. My gripe with you &amp; the Ken’s of this world is your eagerness to slate us &amp; treat us all like idiots because we don’t need, or want to breed Olympic horses. There are enough people doing that, &amp; failing. There are enough horses waiting for the bullet because they have not achieved what they were bred for &amp; therefore are surplus to requirements. Most people on here are not Mushrooms, they do have some idea of what is happening around them. And for the umpteenth time if we all bred the horses you want to see whose going to ride them. As for us idiots using unproven young stallions, hello you keep banging on about blood lines, well are you now saying this is not enough (something we are well aware of)? As so many have said, someone has to take the gamble &amp; breeding is a gamble all you &amp; Ken are talking about is reducing the risk. How many make it to adult hood or even to being born. How many then stay sound &amp; make decent riding horses. Out of 1000’s foals born in Germany for instance how many are going to make it to the Olympics or International standard. We are all aware of how your &amp; Ken feel towards us mere mortals who breed our crap horses with no thought of their futures, oh bless them. Well let me tell you, NOT one of my foals born has ended up as a crap by-product or as meat, they did though end up as well adjusted individuals who gave hours of pleasure to myself &amp; their owners.

 

[Maesfen]

You are so much more eloquent then I am; I couldn't have put it better if I had tried for a week! Thank you M for this -

[ QUOTE ]
We are all aware of how your &amp; Ken feel towards us mere mortals who breed our crap horses with no thought of their futures, oh bless them. Well let me tell you, NOT one of my foals born has ended up as a crap by-product or as meat, they did though end up as well adjusted individuals who gave hours of pleasure to myself &amp; their owners.

[/ QUOTE ]

 

[Foxfolly]

It is such a shame that we don't apply the same breeding principles suggested by the OP to human breeding... we could sort out a lot of the countires problems by selective human breeding...

 

[Foxfolly]

On a more topic related angle....

I have a young stallion who has top class blood lines but I am fully aware that I might possible end up with a dud foal... so yes I see it as pure luck... But I have done what I can to ensure that his first foal is nice, in putting him to a nice mare who IMO will cross well with him, she is unproven due to injury as a youngster, but has good jumping lines on her sires side and is a really nicely put together mare who has produced her first foal this year who I am really pleased with!

My first horse was a lovely chap a nice RC allrounder, his full sister was an advanced eventer, completed Badminton and won the best mares prize... there is no way he would have been capable of doing that, OK he was a good jumper and good at dressage but he never had the scope for that level!! So I see there an example that there are never guarantees in breeding.

My main reason for wanting to use a young stallions is so that I can hopefully have some of the offspring out and competing when the stallion is himself becoming successful and hopefully a desirable blood line in youngstock.

Obviously I would still choose a stallion who I thought complimented my mare and also had what I thought was the potential to do well in the future!!

Ken himself (as discussed on here previously) has punted on a youngster in Dallas Van Overis, he is doing well in the young horse classes but is still unproven at a high level, but has good bloodlines, so therefore in Ken and a lot of others eyes he could potentially be a top class jumper, so I see him as worth using while he is still cheap and affordable!!

I am sure there are a lot of stallions out there who have young sons that maybe have taken a bit more from their mother line and might be a little less temperamental or a little shorter in the back etc.. etc.. and this might suit someones mare better than the successful stallion himself, therefore I would say it would be more responsible breeding to be using the youngster who suits the mare rather than just going for the big gun as he is more successful!!

 

[pinkcatkin]

I echo ToffeeSmarty's comments. I have bred my first foal this year and plan to breed another next year. I did my homework and visited every stallion I considered using to see it move in the flesh. I took advice from experienced breeders and came a decision on which stallion to use after MUCH deliberation AND consideration for where the future of this foal lay.

I sometimes feel as though I am a second class citizen because I breed pure bred Irish Draughts and NOT warmbloods.

 

[volatis]

Funny how roseiew joined solely to respond to Ken, sorry BSM's post, agreeing that we are all stupid and uneducated because sometimes we choose to use a younger stallion.

I have to say that Lyn is one of the best breeders of warmbloods in the UK, and I think she probably knows more than you do ken at how to choose a young stallion and take that gamble it might be the right one.

As others have said how the hell do these young stallions get a chance to produce any foals if we only ever use the older and proven stallions. Whats wrong with looking towards the future every once in a while.

 

[htobago]

I agree.

And surely, BSM, the mark of a TRULY great sire is that he produces offspring even better than himself? So if the great sires you are advocating are truly great, their sons could well be even better - in which case using them could be a very smart move!

And what happened to the importance of motherlines? A son is not just a younger unproven version of his sire - there is the damline to consider. If UK breeders are using younger stallions rather than their proven sires because of the motherlines and what they bring to the equation, this sounds like intelligent and thoughtful breeding to me.

A lot of people here are not just breeding to the most fashionable/established sire because the foals will be easier to sell - any idiot with money can do that; it doesn't take any knowledge or homework or insight or intelligence. The smart breeders are spotting early potential, considering damlines, and taking calculated, intelligent, informed risks on the stars of the future.

 

[Rollin]

for me too it must be a CB - but temperament too is paramount as is its relationship to my mares in order to contribute to genetic diversity.

I could not rely on 'performance' criteria because few CB stallions compete at a top level - there are only about 75 in the world. The few that do compete give a good account of themselves.

Because the breed has a closed stud book the breed is consistently good - when you only have three generations of pedigree and possibly a mix of other or even unknown breeding how do you actually know what you are getting?

Brigader Gerard the flat racer was beaten only once in his racing career. His sire was an unfashionable and therefore inexpensive stallion known as Queen's Hussar. BG was also famous for beating Derby Winner Mill Reef.

Saddler's Wells that most successful flat race sire, sired a winner of every group one race - bar one the Derby - for many many years. Owners of many SW sired colts found the Blue Ribbon of the turf eluded them - in spite of their research and no doubt stupendous stud fees.

Of course breeding is a lottery.

 

[magic104]

Of course breeding is a lottery

Funny it is only us numpties that appreciate that. The racing industry is inundated in attempts to beat the lottery.

 

[toffeesmarty]

BSM 465/ Roseview/ Britbreeder/ Ken? What about Santa Claus next?
However entertaining your input is, your aggressive writing style gives you away every time.
Having two names at the same time - genius!!! At least you've got someone who will agree with you now