The Barefoot vs Shod debate - where do i stand?

Until we moved to Gloucestershire, and therefore Frank was doing a lot more work, he only had front feet on. When we came here, and upped his workload, he went footsore, so then he had backs on. xx
 
If Spud wears out his feet, it's the hinds that go first. Farrier reckons it's that big arab action of his and says his welshies are the same. The fronts are tough as old boots but the hinds get very short more quickly. If he's got boots or shoes on, they wear out behind too. But you don't hear of people just booting or shoeing just the hinds. H on the other hand would wear out his fronts first so he was shod just in front for ages. Now he's not doing the work any more we just boot in front if we're going somewhere his feet might not cope.

If there's room on the open minded non-dogmatic no-mans-land for me, I'll set up camp there with you though. Swapping one obsessive dogma for another does not for open minded horsemanship make ;)
 
horserider said:
The thread was entitled 'The Barefoot vs Shod debate-where do I stand ? Perhaps if you had asked the question Who has horses just shod in front ? you might have got the answers you seem to be looking for ?
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perhaps if i had entitled it 'Lets all have a big argument about shod vs barefoot' then you would have a point!

It was supposed to be lighthearted about having a in-betweeners group - but obviously everyone one on here is far too serious about feet - my mistake. :rolleyes:
 
Paint Me Proud said:
oh no i didnt want this thread to start a barefoot/shod debate.
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He he, the clue is in the title. :D Actually I think the other thread has aroused emotions tbh. ;)

Re hind hooves doing better generally barefoot. Pete Ramey has a theory that they actually do more work, being the main propulsion system, so develop better and stronger internal structures.
I also think the weight distribution and us concentrating much more on front hooves are factors as well.
 
It won't quote the whole post properly but with regards to:
Cedars:
My farrier would only put shoes on my horse if he felt that she genuinely needed this. Because he is a PROFESSIONAL with decades of expertise, he would know whether she's genuinely footy, or if she's got lami...!

I suspect my farrier wouldn't either, but how do you know when your horse is 19, came to you shod at 12 whether that horse really needs those shoes on or not? Unfortunately you don't and can't unless you try taking them off. I can certainly see why for many horses it is 'habit' (for want of a better word) to continue shoeing them all round, and its perhaps easier not try.

amandap I think the weight distribution has to make a big difference with regards to front feet too.
 
Cedars said:
Shall I repeat? DO WHAT IS BEST FOR YOUR HORSE, IN LINE WITH AN EXPERT OPINION.

Puzzle will remain barefoot in all likelihood, because she is showing no signs of needing shoes. However I'm not going to put her through the pain of being footy, should she develop problems, just because I'm so desperate to fit in with the fashion.

Likewise, if one of our shod horses went lame, and there was no obvious cause, we would take shoes off and see what happened.

DO WHAT IS BEST FOR YOUR HORSE!
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No no no! You have to blindly follow the mighty Mullah Omar :D:D
 
If I may explain myself as I imagine I am seen as a BF extremist by some....

I have no problem with anyone shoeing their horses.

It's none of my business what anyone does with their own horse.

BUT if someone (and there have been a fair few from here) finds themselves backed against the wall with a lame horse, have been through remedial shoeing and the vet is scratching their head....then I will try to help.

I will continue to respond to the pms and emails I get from HHOers and try to help however I can.

If someone has a BF horse and is having a problem, I will try to help.

I do not advocate sore or lame horses...BF or shod.

If that makes me an extremist - then so be it.

I think name calling and back biting makes both 'camps' look foolish.

Surely we all want the same thing - healthy horses?
 
Cedars said:
Yes, Oberon, good post :)
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Thank you.

Might add that I came to BF purely for the reason that I was too cheap to pay extra to have my draft shod when he was backed.

Farrier took one look at his soup plates and quoted me £75 a pop, rather than the standard £55 (this was years ago).

I scrambled to the internet and looked for an alternative
lol.gif
.

But the more I learnt, the more I wanted to learn...and it's all spiralled from there :p.
 
cptrayes said:
Mmmmmm. I can't join you in no man's land. I think there are a lot of horses who cope with no shoes on the hinds because it is so much more difficult to judge bilateral footiness in the back feet. They aren't truly right, they just aren't lame. I think that if a horse is truly rock stomping with the back feet, then it ought to be able to do the fronts too. For me, a barefoot horse is only one with no shoes on at all. Shoeless behind only, for me, is just that, shoeless behind, and doesn't count, sorry :rolleyes:!
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Mine are unshod but seen regularly by a normal farrier - where does that put me?

Also I have to disagree with your comments regarding horses shod in front being 'not truly right', I feel it is rather that the majority of the horse's weight is naturally on the front feet rather than the hind and this is why some horses need front shoes. This is also born out by the fact that a break in a front leg carries a much more guarded prognosis than one in a hind and laminitis, for instance, normally shows up in a front foot first.
 
I took my horses shoes off purely to save money. I was paying £65 every 6-8 weeks and why? If money was no object I would probably still be shoeing him and would have shod him if it didnt work. It's only after a couple of years of him being barefoot that I have really read up on it and noticed the benefits to his feet. Either way works, I'm just a cheap skate. :p
 
horserider said:
Mine are unshod and in work, I prefer not to use shoes but the extremism of some of the diehard barefooters puts me right off, as does farrier and feed company bashing.


Instead of trundling off to find a trimmer with limited training or a self styled Ebay backroom supplement supplier, surely its better to canvas the professionals who have the expertise and resources available.

With the increasing trend of leisure horse ownership, times have changed, the experts are catching up to the needs of underworked, overfed pets, but in looking for answers, don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Self proclaimed experts may be good at challenging old beliefs, but that doesn't mean they know the answers.
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If you were a bloke I would marry you :D

I agree with every last word!
 
Cedars said:
And does it really matter if horses have shoes on but don't need them? REALLY? Compared to all our starving, neglected, beaten equines who are literally living life on a knife edge. Compared to the greater issues in the world, like children dying, like poverty, like the damage we're doing to our planet. Does it REALLY matter? It's not abuse, yes it might be a waste of money but that's the choice of the horse owner-plenty of people waste money on matchy matchy which I think is a far stupider expense, but we're not all kicking off about that?

The barefoot terrorists amongst you will come back now with statistics about how horses are crippled by shoes, they're in constant pain etc-I don't care. Because I know our horses, I know MY horse, I know what's best for them, and they will be shod, or not, accordingly. Shoes have been used for hundreds of years by thousands of people, they're not suddenly the enemy.

Simple: do what is best for your horse.
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*applauds*
 
Oberon said:
Thank you.

Might add that I came to BF purely for the reason that I was too cheap to pay extra to have my draft shod when he was backed.

Farrier took one look at his soup plates and quoted me £75 a pop, rather than the standard £55 (this was years ago).

I scrambled to the internet and looked for an alternative
lol.gif
.

But the more I learnt, the more I wanted to learn...and it's all spiralled from there :p.
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Actually Oberon, I don't think of you as one of the diehard barefooters, you come across as much more reasoned and well informed. There are one or two however, who spout rubbish with great authority :cool:
 
Amaranta said:
There are one or two however, who spout rubbish with great authority :cool:
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amen.gif


No one person has all the answers though - and that means both sides.

For everything that works on 10 horses, you'll get one awkward bugger that it won't work on :p
 
I have decided to do a ONE WEEK ONLY offer I am going to shoe One front and One hind (same side)
If you see anyone coming on a horse you can turn yours the right way around to avoid conflict!
All horses should be shod, unshod, shod, unshod, shod, unshod, shod, unshod.
Why don’t they tax horse shoes then we would all try and avoid them!
 
moorman said:
I have decided to do a ONE WEEK ONLY offer I am going to shoe One front and One hind (same side)
If you see anyone coming on a horse you can turn yours the right way around to avoid conflict!
All horses should be shod, unshod, shod, unshod, shod, unshod, shod, unshod.
Why don’t they tax horse shoes then we would all try and avoid them!
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ROFL :D

But, what if shoes didn't exist? Would horses still be unshod? If something else existed in it's place e.g. bananas. Would they be unbanana'd? I'm just pondering really and taking a break from hoovering the stairs...
 
Amaranta said:
Actually Oberon, I don't think of you as one of the diehard barefooters, you come across as much more reasoned and well informed. There are one or two however, who spout rubbish with great authority :cool:
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You want to tell us which ones those are, and what "rubbish" they are spouting, because in about two years now I have only seen fairly reasonable barefoot posting and some very aggressive responses from people who don't like what we say.

Your own post to me, for example:

Shall I repeat? DO WHAT IS BEST FOR YOUR HORSE, IN LINE WITH AN EXPERT OPINION.

..........

DO WHAT IS BEST FOR YOUR HORSE!
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reads as if you think I don't. And if you read the following thread, you will see not only that I do, but that I have done for a very long time.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=405124


I wish I could share your faith in all farriers, but no, I don't believe all farriers can recognise low grade laminitis because I have seen more than one horse with it that was shod because of it at three years old. I have owned a horse of my own and know of dozens more whose farriers have said that they will never manage barefoot. My own evented affiliated and the others are fine too. I have owned one horse due to be put down for navicular after his vets and farriers could do no more for him and I know far too many more, which are sound with no shoes on but their farriers said it would not help. My own now hunts and won his National Breed Show class. Others are hunting and eventing and doing everything they were before they went lame.

You have a great farrier, treasure him. Not everyone is as lucky.
 
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cptrayes said:
You want to tell us which ones those are, and what "rubbish" they are spouting, because in about two years now I have only seen fairly reasonable barefoot posting and some very aggressive responses from people who don't like what we say.

Your own post to me, for example:



reads as if you think I don't. And if you read the following thread, you will see not only that I do, but that I have done for a very long time.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=405124


I wish I could share your faith in all farriers, but no, I don't believe all farriers can recognise low grade laminitis because I have seen more than one horse with it that was shod because of it at three years old. I have owned a horse of my own and know of dozens more whose farriers have said that they will never manage barefoot. My own evented affiliated and the others are fine too. I have owned one horse due to be put down for navicular after his vets and farriers could do no more for him and I know far too many more, which are sound with no shoes on but their farriers said it would not help. My own now hunts and won his National Breed Show class. Others are hunting and eventing and doing everything they were before they went lame.

You have a great farrier, treasure him. Not everyone is as lucky.
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Not my post actually :rolleyes:

Gosh defensive much!
 
If they need shoes they need them, if they can manage without then so be it - whatever suits the horse. It shouldn't be about whats thought correct,or what other people tell you to do or are doing themselves or what's better in the long run.. it's about what suits the horse there and then.. what's better for the amount of work it's doing..

My horse has front shoes on, the fronts take 60% of the weight, which means she'll wear them down quicker/harsher. The way i feel about it, is if she were to go "barefoot" -shoeless/without shoes - same thing, she'd probably end up wearing her feet right back with all the road work/work in the school she does and then she'd go foot sore because they'd be worn SO far back.. what is the point in causing her that pain? when i can avoid it with putting shoes on her..

I give her a break over winter when she has them off completely, this is for two reasons, one to give her feet a "breather" and two - i simply do not ride enough - so she doesn't need them.. :) honestly, as i heard from a very good vet who's done A LOT of research on this case.. "just because it's natural, doesn't mean it's right."

:) :D

PS) How many of you would go for a jog around the block without shoes? or a walk around town? or go on one of the hacks you and your horse do without shoes? :D ;) :p


Oh and i just forgot the reason for my post, was actually to say.. the argument for me isn't whether the horse is shod or not - do whatever the hell you want with your horses feet.. shoe it, barefoot it, have 2 shoes on or 4 on - doesn't make the least bit of difference to my opinion.. what my argument is about, is who you have do your trims/shoeing? Why on earth anyone would have someone who has had 6 weeks training (over here or in america) trim there horses as apposed to some one who is actually qualified in a horses foot/lower leg (possibly even more so than a vet is!!) and spent 4 years learning his trade under a approved training farrier who has had to do exams so as to train a farrier! Madness if you ask me but each to there own.. :p
 
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Each to their own if they decide to shoe or not to shoe - depends on the horse and depends on any underlying conditions.....if my mare hadn't got the problems she has - and it's a hell of a list - (bilateral spavin, PSLD in one hind limb, arthritis in one fetlock and bilateral navicular), then I would, without doubt still be putting shoes on her - no reason not to, and I wouldn't have done the reading that I have done, in order to come to a decision. She is a vet's dream - bills to keep them in range rovers for life. Although she is now, more or less a veterinary write off. The vet previously told me that actually PTS may become an option.
She had her shoes off in November and had the winter off work. She was sore and it was painful to watch - the fields were so boggy that her feet were soft all the time and the lack of work meant that the feet weren't getting the stimulation they required.
A few weeks ago I decided that I was going to start walking her out as doing nowt was not helping her. So I got a physio out to her and we've agreed a program of work to get her moving again. I'm long-reining her out now and I can honestly say this horse hasn't looked this good for a long time. Hoof boots on the front which I think may be similar to Nike Air trainers as she is absolutely bouncing along. So I have no problem with anyone putting shoes on their horses, but I think when you come up with problems like those that my horse has, then it's important to maybe find an alternative way of thinking. Let's face it - I can always go back to shoes if I find it necessary, but while she's making progress this way, I don't see the point. The advice to both the barefooters and those who shoe religiously, is never say never as there may sometime come a time when you need to find an alternative way of thinking when everything else has been exhausted.
 
tallyho! said:
Maybe not but you have quite rude... just from where I was looking as well as a few others towards barefooters.
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Blimey, rude? I pointed no fingers actually, doing so would have been, fact is that there are some on here who do spout rubbish with authority, I did not say that cptrayes was one of them but she felt the need to be defensive.

Please can you point out where in this post I have been rude to barefooters?
 
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Amaranta said:
Blimey, rude? I pointed no fingers actually, doing so would have been, fact is that there are some on here who do spout rubbish with authority, I did not say that cptrayes was one of them but she felt the need to be defensive.

Please can you point out where in this post I have been rude to barefooters?
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And I repeat, please tell us who you think is spouting rubbish about barefoot and what this rubbish is, because for the life of me I can't remember any in a long time and I suspect that the stuff you are calling rubbish is simply stuff you don't want to believe is true.

And since I can't remember anyone "spouting rubbish" it is rude to suggest that people are, whether you name them or not.
 
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cptrayes said:
And I repeat, please tell us who you think is spouting rubbish about barefoot and what this rubbish is, because for the life of me I can't remember any in a long time and I suspect that the stuff you are calling rubbish is simply stuff you don't want to believe is true.

And since I can't remember anyone "spouting rubbish" it is rude to suggest that people are, whether you name them or not.
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Oh please, I have enough knowledge to know what is true and what is not - I will not point fingers, you have already accused me of posts that were not mine (thanks for the apology btw), you are sounding slightly hysterical.

I have ALWAYS stated that some horses can go barefoot, others can't, I dislike the way that SOME barefoot supporters make those whose horses cannot go without shoes feel guilty. You yourself have, in the past, said to someone that that if they could not be bothered to put themselves out to manage a barefoot horse properly then perhaps they should stick shoes back on, making the person concerned out to be an inadequate owner, when challenged by others you backtracked.
 
cptrayes said:
And I repeat, please tell us who you think is spouting rubbish about barefoot and what this rubbish is, because for the life of me I can't remember any in a long time and I suspect that the stuff you are calling rubbish is simply stuff you don't want to believe is true.

And since I can't remember anyone "spouting rubbish" it is rude to suggest that people are, whether you name them or not.
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It aint me! :D :p :cool: Ha ha!
 
Amaranta said:
Oh please, I have enough knowledge to know what is true and what is not - I will not point fingers, you have already accused me of posts that were not mine (thanks for the apology btw), you are sounding slightly hysterical.

I have ALWAYS stated that some horses can go barefoot, others can't, I dislike the way that SOME barefoot supporters make those whose horses cannot go without shoes feel guilty. You yourself have, in the past, said to someone that that if they could not be bothered to put themselves out to manage a barefoot horse properly then perhaps they should stick shoes back on, making the person concerned out to be an inadequate owner, when challenged by others you backtracked.
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Remind me where that was, because I sure as hell can't remember it.

It doesn't sound like me to backtrack, quite honestly, neither does it sound like me to say "if you can't be bothered to put yourself out", since I have always acknowledged that it is not easy for some people, especially in livery yards, to do what some horses need to be barefoot, and that those people are better off shoeing.


Can you please point me to the reference of my dreadful behaviour?


Oh and by the way, if you call stuff people write "rubbish" without saying what is rubbish about it then surely you expect to be challenged on that?


ps terribly sorry I misquoted you earlier. I mistook you for someone with a similar tone.
 
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