The Barefoot vs Shod debate - where do i stand?

[GinaGeo]

I've just had shoes put back on my ridden horse. He had them off over winter as he was turned away and I wanted to give his hooves a break. I changed all of their diets at the same time, to a "barefoot friendly supplement" recommended on here, and no alflafa, minimal starch and no mollasses.

I've been fighting thrush with him never fully sucessfully for a long time. One back foot has always been particularly bad. Following the advice on here regarding using sudocreme and cotton wall balls as well as the change of feed his deep sulcus thrush has for the first time, not only stopped smelling but the sulcus is actually beginning to fill in again. I've used many remedies reccomended by my vet and farrier unsucessfully previous to this.

I have put shoes back on him allround now he's back in work, he wasn't coping without them well at all, but I shall have them off again next winter it's certainly not done him any harm. I also have hoof boots as well now, so if he ever loses a shoe I'm prepared!

My oldie who's now retired (serious tendon injury) has always had a thick wall on one front foot, it's always flared to the extreme. But since changing the feed the foot's looking alot healthier and is actually gaining some concavity.

My youngster, doesn't wear shoes, he's perfectly sound without them and thus won't have them.

I think that whilst barefoot isn't possible for all horses and owners, the thoughts are invaluable, for example the diet reccomended makes sense (and in my case really worked) and I can really see that where possible it's better for the horse to not have shoes.

 

[cptrayes]

Cptrayes- very interesting fact about connemaras. I have a Connie x tb, & her feet have always been her weak point. She was shod from being 4 until her late teens when her reduced work load led the farrier to suggest just trimming. She never needed a transition period & would not be happy trotting great distances on gravel but that to me for her current work load is preferable to damaged feet from nail holes & the farrier assures me her feet are better unshod for light work. In my teens I blamed her feet on her tb sire until farrier said connies hooves are less hardy than other natives. I've always had remarks that its the tb in her that's led to less than perfect feet, you are the first person to mention its a connie trait, beginning to think mine must be an exception, so thankyou

you'll find it fascinating, I'm sure. It's the frist time, I think, that a gene has been identified as having a very specific impact on hoof quality. Thank goodness you have one which has not got it

 

[cptrayes]

by cptrayes
I believe that there are thousands of horses with insulin regulation issues due to IR, EPSM, EMS or PPID (Cushings), mostly undiagnosed, who cannot cope barefoot without stringent diet control.
by amaranta
agreed and a lot of those horses are genetically disposed and even with stringent diet control will never be able to go barefoot

A very great number probably just have a copper deficiency caused by excess iron and manganese in their grazing and forage, exacerbated by the fact that ALL the supplements from the feed experts that have previously been lauded (by you? I can't remember but I think so) have added iron and manganese in them and so do most commercial feeds, since they all use the same vitamin premix.

Many of those horses simply require proper mineral balancing, but they are having shoes put on instead. I nearly did it with one of mine but, thankfully the barefoot taliban alerted me to the problems with manganese overload in the land around me.

Magnesium is also now being used to combat type ii diabetes in humans. Barefoot zealots have promoted the feeding of large quantities of magnesium for years now. Initially the nutritionists scoffed (I had a personal conversation with one of from a large animal feed company) but they aren't scoffing any more, thankfully.

 

[LucyPriory]

Barefoot zealots have promoted the feeding of large quantities of magnesium for years now. Initially the nutritionists scoffed (I had a personal conversation with one of from a large animal feed company) but they aren't scoffing any more, thankfully.

Many of the larger feed companies are really getting their act together, but it pays to do your own research and not to take their advice as gospel. A client contacted a smaller feed company last year for nutritional advice - only to be told that magnesium was (I paraphrase) not that important.

Even though we know that magnesium is needed for more than 250 processes in the body and that several geldings on the same yard as the client lost the ability to pee properly they were so short of magnesium (or rather the calcium was so high the calcium:magnesium ratio was dangerously out).

 

[amandap]

Even though we know that magnesium is needed for more than 250 processes in the body and that several geldings on the same yard as the client lost the ability to pee properly they were so short of magnesium (or rather the calcium was so high the calcium:magnesium ratio was dangerously out).

This is a great example of why knowing what actually is in your grasses and hay/haylage can be so important.

 

[Amaranta]

Many of the larger feed companies are really getting their act together, but it pays to do your own research and not to take their advice as gospel. A client contacted a smaller feed company last year for nutritional advice - only to be told that magnesium was (I paraphrase) not that important.

Even though we know that magnesium is needed for more than 250 processes in the body and that several geldings on the same yard as the client lost the ability to pee properly they were so short of magnesium (or rather the calcium was so high the calcium:magnesium ratio was dangerously out).

I would agree Lucy, many of the larger companies are indeed getting their act together and also agree that we should not take anything as gospel.

I also believe that whilst people are more aware of the need for magnesium, people are not so aware that you can overload calcium. Alfalfa in particular is sometimes fed in such great quantities as to cause this and there is one feed company that advocates feeding far too much on a daily basis, it makes me shudder, to top it off they advise feeding with sugar beet, another calcium rich feed

 

[YasandCrystal]

Absolutely, there's a middle ground I currently have 4 unshod and 2 with fronts. It all depends on the needs of the individual. Not the evangelical crusade we see on here everyday. There shouldn't be diehards and there certainly shouldn't be any 'camps'. Some on this forum will argue for ever and think they're leading authorities? Don't listen to them or me, listen to the horse.

LB, a barefoot realist

^^^ Very well said. The thing I hate is when someone says their horse is too sore barefoot - the BF camp say - 'oh it must be the grass', I just think crikey if someone limits their horse's grass intake (I don't mean access to lush limitless grass!) in order to go BF it's a tad sad.

 

[amandap]

I have a pony who gets very footie on grass, in fact she gets laminitis! I keep her off grass most of the time... yes, it's very "sad" in indeed.

 

[Clava]

^^^ Very well said. The thing I hate is when someone says their horse is too sore barefoot - the BF camp say - 'oh it must be the grass', I just think crikey if someone limits their horse's grass intake (I don't mean access to lush limitless grass!) in order to go BF it's a tad sad.

How is it sad if the horse's feet then don't hurt and it is then happy and healthy???

 

[YasandCrystal]

How is it sad if the horse's feet then don't hurt and it is then happy and healthy???

Because to keep a horse 'naturally' is to allow it to roam and forage and have access to herbs grasses and hedgerows. If a horse is on non lush grass and has access to the hedgreows etc and a good vit/min balance and it is still footie then the workload/barefoot scenario does not suit the horse. What I am saying is you can't blame diet alone on a horse being sore. Not every horse is suited to going BF imo.

I have a lami prone pony , but then he is 10hh falabella x - not exactly a native bred, so more prone to health issues due to his breeding and size.

 

[Clava]

Because to keep a horse 'naturally' is to allow it to roam and forage and have access to herbs grasses and hedgerows. If a horse is on non lush grass and has access to the hedgreows etc and a good vit/min balance and it is still footie then the workload/barefoot scenario does not suit the horse. What I am saying is you can't blame diet alone on a horse being sore. Not every horse is suited to going BF imo.

I have a lami prone pony , but then he is 10hh falabella x - not exactly a native bred, so more prone to health issues due to his breeding and size.

You didn't answer how it is "sad" to have a horse with hooves that don't hurt?

.It is quite possible to have extensive tracks that allow access to hedgerows and herbs and free movement that don't allow any real access to fields of grass. Field grazing is not the only option for a "natural" horse and most fields are not very natural any way.

 

[BeesKnees]

Many of the larger feed companies are really getting their act together, but it pays to do your own research and not to take their advice as gospel..

Absolutely. I can't understand why anyone would think they are getting impartial advice if they speak to a feed company By definition an adviser employed by such a company is being paid ultimately to encourage purchase of that company's products. If not why on earth would they pay to have such people on staff? They may try to find you the most suitable product within their range, but they aren't going to tell you to go elsewhere!

I have to say as a neutral observer, I've found the Barefoot exponents to be never endingly generous with their time and hard found knowledge to anyone who asks. They argue their case vigorously but back it up with experience and evidence, anecdotal and science-based. I for one have found it fascinating even though I have no strong feeling either way.

It's a shame that some who do not hold with Barefoot, as is their undeniable right, feel the need to throw around aggressive terms such as 'extremist' and 'terrorist' rather than just hold a well argued debate.

 

[YasandCrystal]

You didn't answer how it is "sad" to have a horse with hooves that don't hurt?

.It is quite possible to have extensive tracks that allow access to hedgerows and herbs and free movement that don't allow any real access to fields of grass. Field grazing is not the only option for a "natural" horse and most fields are not very natural any way.

I have a track system actually. The comment about sad was nothing to do with feet not hurting it was more to do with being so dead set on something that you lose focus of the horse's comfort. I think it is sad not to let a horse graze and forage; that is natural behaviour. I have 2 barefoot and one in transition and I am not sure it will work out for her, so I may need to return to front shoes. She is on a track system so the grass she has is quite sparse and rough.

 

[cptrayes]

I just think crikey if someone limits their horse's grass intake (I don't mean access to lush limitless grass!) in order to go BF it's a tad sad.

We don't limit them to allow them to go barefoot.

We limit them because being barefoot allows us to know that too much grass is affecting their systems. We limit their grass to stop it affecting their liver, in particular, and other body systems.

 

[abitodd]

In answer to the OP...........I would say you have a foot in both camps

I believe there are more nerve endings serving the front feet. Couple this with a horse's preference for carrying 60% of its weight on the front end and you can understand why many need protection on the front.

It is however possible to school a horse to use the power from the hindquarters,lift and round the back and elevate(reduce weight) the front end. I think this is often called dressage or classical riding. Anyway this extreme form of riding enables my barefoot horse to glide over any surface.

Having dropped this bomb,I shall retire to the bunkers with my fellow terrorists.

 

[YasandCrystal]

We don't limit them to allow them to go barefoot.

We limit them because being barefoot allows us to know that too much grass is affecting their systems. We limit their grass to stop it affecting their liver, in particular, and other body systems.

Ok then my question would be how would a horse naturally cope? I really think that some horses are too sensitive to be BF and you are saying that your horse's soreness is telling you that grass intake is affecting their systems. I use a track system and I know my grass is of poor quality - the land has never been sown with grass the grass that is there has just grown. The soil is quite heavy clay. I have 3 barefoot and 2 cope fine, but my mare and this is my second attempt with her is really footsore. I wanted to persevere however I think she is going to need front shoes. I can't see that diet can be the only/main factor in her soreness. I have been using 'Rock Hard ' on her soles yet she is still sore. She is slightly arthritic and it pains me to see her sore. I have used Boa boots to hack her out on a stoney track, but she remains sore on the drying mud on my track.
I really believe the answer lies in breeding - some horses and it seems many native breds are able to easily cope BF and have superb hard wearing hooves, however many cross breeds and modern bred horses seem unable to. I think the saying 'horses for courses' is very apt and that not all horses can truly be BF and remain comfortable, regardless of their diet.

 

[Littlelegs]

Abitodd- can't quote but lmao at 'extreme riding'. Actually not a bf terrorist myself, just have farrier to trim feet & always had horses shod for hard work but i'll join you in the extreme riders club!

 

[Clava]

Ok then my question would be how would a horse naturally cope? I really think that some horses are too sensitive to be BF and you are saying that your horse's soreness is telling you that grass intake is affecting their systems. I use a track system and I know my grass is of poor quality - the land has never been sown with grass the grass that is there has just grown. The soil is quite heavy clay. I have 3 barefoot and 2 cope fine, but my mare and this is my second attempt with her is really footsore. I wanted to persevere however I think she is going to need front shoes. I can't see that diet can be the only/main factor in her soreness. I have been using 'Rock Hard ' on her soles yet she is still sore. She is slightly arthritic and it pains me to see her sore. I have used Boa boots to hack her out on a stoney track, but she remains sore on the drying mud on my track.
I really believe the answer lies in breeding - some horses and it seems many native breds are able to easily cope BF and have superb hard wearing hooves, however many cross breeds and modern bred horses seem unable to. I think the saying 'horses for courses' is very apt and that not all horses can truly be BF and remain comfortable, regardless of their diet.

I think until you have eliminated all others causes you can't just say it is breeding, your mare might be low in an essential mineral which may be causing the problem or she may have a metabolic issue or some other problem. Too often poor genes have been stated as the issue and reason for poor hooves, thin soles, sensitivity, etc and then when the diet and care is changed the hooves grow and improve beyond expectations. It could just be that you havent hit on the reason yet...unless you have tried a mineral balanced diet and possibly no grass you can't blame genetics (except for those relating to metabolic genes).

 

[amandap]

There are so many reasons for footyness. Diet is a major one but also the strength of the hooves at that time, are the soles thin? Are the internal structures well developed and robust? Is there any thrush? Is there a degree of laminitis aka wall separation/stretched white line? Is the trim helping or hindering? Often domestic hooves seem to be 'weak' especially if they have worn shoes and need a period of 'rehab' to enable them to become stronger with thicker soles etc. etc.
Unraveling all this and working towards healthy, strong hooves is what imo BF is all about. Hooves are like windows into the horses' whole system, so get them improved and you are improving the whole horse. This is my view anyway.

ps. If breeding turns out to be a factor or even a major factor then imo it's time we looked at our breeding! My personal view atm is that breeding is not a major factor it's the way we manage and feed horses that has the biggest influence.

 

[YasandCrystal]

I think until you have eliminated all others causes you can't just say it is breeding, your mare might be low in an essential mineral which may be causing the problem or she may have a metabolic issue or some other problem. Too often poor genes have been stated as the issue and reason for poor hooves, thin soles, sensitivity, etc and then when the diet and care is changed the hooves grow and improve beyond expectations. It could just be that you havent hit on the reason yet...unless you have tried a mineral balanced diet and possibly no grass you can't blame genetics (except for those relating to metabolic genes).

I hear what you are saying. My mare gets a broad spectrum vit and min supplement. She has access to a Red Rock, I also give all of mine magnesium oxide and she additionally has a biotin based hoof supplement and Pernamax for her arthritis. They are all fed plain chaff, micronised linseed and carob (locust bean) and my mare get A&P Veteran Vitality and a small amount of unmollassed beet. They get offered dried rosehips and dandelion and adlib hay or haylage (quite a dry soft blend).
So without eliminating the sparse rough grass or trying a totally different diet I have to conclude that BF will not be easy for her. I don't say that sensitive footed horses have poor genes at all - I am simply saying that some breeds do not seem to cope BF - and it is not uncommon for TBs to have flat feet and sensitive soles, which I am sure is a predisposition of the breed rather than the feeding regime.

 

[amandap]

Oh and re the horses way of going/carrying itself. I believe they will naturally carry themselves well if their hooves are functioning properly. If their feet are sore or they are altering the way they carry themselves to compensate for incorrect hoof function/loading, then moving fluidly and properly isn't as easy.
I'm not saying training the horse to carry itself properly with a rider isn't a big factor for the horse, I do believe it is and think some of the classical methods are a great way that are sympathetic to the horse.

My horse with chronic low grade laminitis used to have a huge chest and very weak back end. Over the years as I've learned more she has evened out and that huge chest is now much more normal.

 

[tallyho!]

I hear what you are saying. My mare gets a broad spectrum vit and min supplement. She has access to a Red Rock, I also give all of mine magnesium oxide and she additionally has a biotin based hoof supplement and Pernamax for her arthritis. They are all fed plain chaff, micronised linseed and carob (locust bean) and my mare get A&P Veteran Vitality and a small amount of unmollassed beet. They get offered dried rosehips and dandelion and adlib hay or haylage (quite a dry soft blend).
So without eliminating the sparse rough grass or trying a totally different diet I have to conclude that BF will not be easy for her. I don't say that sensitive footed horses have poor genes at all - I am simply saying that some breeds do not seem to cope BF - and it is not uncommon for TBs to have flat feet and sensitive soles, which I am sure is a predisposition of the breed rather than the feeding regime.

I'm not so sure it is a breed thing. As some horses in every breed can't cope well and some do. I am more inclined to think it's a genetic thing. In the wild, these would have perished as they would be too weak-footed to run from predators. But why do they have weak feet? The genes for the actual foot? Or, genes for gut function/metabolism?

In your horses case, that sounds like a lot of vits n mins and I don't know your history so only going by what you have written here, but it does sound like a toxicity of some kind. You are right to shoe because you can't find the answer and you should not persevere if the horse is in pain. I don't think many people advocate that. Have you tried a detox and an elimination diet? Trinity Consultants are a very good source of information and you can call up to have a chat about the symptoms.

 

[YasandCrystal]

I'm not so sure it is a breed thing. As some horses in every breed can't cope well and some do. I am more inclined to think it's a genetic thing. In the wild, these would have perished as they would be too weak-footed to run from predators. But why do they have weak feet? The genes for the actual foot? Or, genes for gut function/metabolism?

In your horses case, that sounds like a lot of vits n mins and I don't know your history so only going by what you have written here, but it does sound like a toxicity of some kind. You are right to shoe because you can't find the answer and you should not persevere if the horse is in pain. I don't think many people advocate that. Have you tried a detox and an elimination diet? Trinity Consultants are a very good source of information and you can call up to have a chat about the symptoms.

The detox is a good idea. The mare has slight arthritis also and clicks away and it makes me wonder if she has high acidity in her system. The track system helps her arthritis and fitness in general as she is on the move a lot. She years ago before I had her had grass sickness and was 1 of only a minute % to ever survive the form she had. She was hand fed mainly vegetables for 18 months, so maybe this had a long lasting effect - who knows. I will look into Trinity Consultants - thanks. Her feet look fine, but her soles are sensitive - not easily palpable and no thrush at all.
I agree the weak footed would have perished; so the debate in my head is just how far and how long to you try to get a horse BF and comfortable? If one acknowledges that not all horses can go BF comfortably whether that is through their workload or livery circumstances or their genes and foot makeup.
My OH is a farrier and he advocates BF and does BF trims. Many of his clients are BF behind; I think this is usually possible in a general riding horse where the front end takes most of the strain.

 

[cptrayes]

Ok then my question would be how would a horse naturally cope? I really think that some horses are too sensitive to be BF and you are saying that your horse's soreness is telling you that grass intake is affecting their systems. I use a track system and I know my grass is of poor quality - the land has never been sown with grass the grass that is there has just grown. The soil is quite heavy clay. I have 3 barefoot and 2 cope fine, but my mare and this is my second attempt with her is really footsore. I wanted to persevere however I think she is going to need front shoes. I can't see that diet can be the only/main factor in her soreness. I have been using 'Rock Hard ' on her soles yet she is still sore. She is slightly arthritic and it pains me to see her sore. I have used Boa boots to hack her out on a stoney track, but she remains sore on the drying mud on my track.
I really believe the answer lies in breeding - some horses and it seems many native breds are able to easily cope BF and have superb hard wearing hooves, however many cross breeds and modern bred horses seem unable to. I think the saying 'horses for courses' is very apt and that not all horses can truly be BF and remain comfortable, regardless of their diet.

My guess would be that your horse may have undiagnosed insulin resistance or Cushings, have you had her tested for either? Have you had your forage analysed, the symptoms that you have can also result from copper deficiency and iron, manganese or moylbdenum overload in the food. Not all horses react the same. Two of mine are footie without copper and one was not.

There's no doubt that some find it much easier than others.

In answer to your question how a horse would cope naturally, it wouldn't have access to the kind of grazing that we use - yours is restricted in area even if it's not too rich. They would pick and choose plants that contain the elements that they need. When my horse had a general anaesthetic a couple of years ago he went mad initially for plantain and then for dandelion - both to detox his system, I think, since dandelion is a diuretic. He eats neither usually, or since.

The shod horses who look sound aren't all coping. It is amazing how many people report a complete change in horses who were behaving badly once they are on a barefoot-friendly diet. And I have also been shocked to see two severe sweet itch cases of my own disappear completely on a restricted grass diet, something which was reported by other people too when I started a thread on it.

I hope you manage with your mare, but it sounds like she might be too sore right now to manage without her shoes on? Perhaps you could shoe her, test for IR/Cushings, do a forage anaylsis and then take them off when you know what she needs?

 

[Oberon]

I hear what you are saying. My mare gets a broad spectrum vit and min supplement. She has access to a Red Rock, I also give all of mine magnesium oxide and she additionally has a biotin based hoof supplement and Pernamax for her arthritis. They are all fed plain chaff, micronised linseed and carob (locust bean) and my mare get A&P Veteran Vitality and a small amount of unmollassed beet. They get offered dried rosehips and dandelion and adlib hay or haylage (quite a dry soft blend).
So without eliminating the sparse rough grass or trying a totally different diet I have to conclude that BF will not be easy for her. I don't say that sensitive footed horses have poor genes at all - I am simply saying that some breeds do not seem to cope BF - and it is not uncommon for TBs to have flat feet and sensitive soles, which I am sure is a predisposition of the breed rather than the feeding regime.

Broad spectrum supplement is only as good as the horse can utilise the nutrients in it.

Red Rock - usually very high in iron.

Biotin based hoof supplement - depends what else is in it and how it's competing with everything else she's getting.

Carob - I used it for a while before I had my forage analysed and found waaaayyy too much calcium in both.

Veteran Vitality - again, it depends what the other vitamins and minerals are in everything, competing with each other.

Permanex - I don't know anything about, sorry.

I think (which means nothing) there is a possibilty her sensitivity may be caused by lots of minerals competing with each other for absorption.

Perhaps stripping it all down to basics may help?

I don't routinely suggest people remove their horses from grass (unless there is a definite threat of danger - for which I suggest a 48 hour removal) as I just don't think it's feasible for owners or fair on the horse if there aren't facilities for non grass turnout with company.

I do find that horses cope better with grass when they have balanced minerals on board. I imagine this will be linked with insulin control by having iron, copper and zinc balanced.

Obviously, if a horse had IR or Cushings, then this will make things harder.

Regarding TBs - like Iberians, they are commonly found to be sensitive to sugar/starch. But their traditional feeds tend to be 'competition mixes' etc, which are often very high in sugar/starch. Added that they are commonly shod from an early age....

I am sure genetics play a part - but I doubt it's the only answer. It frustrates me when TB owners accept pathological hooves on their horses as inevitable I've seen some horrors but the owners accept that and the recurrent lameness, tendon strains, swellings, lumps and bumps as part of life
Some of these owners have had to take them BF or PTS and suddenly these genetically impaired hooves are fabulous.

I hope you don't think I'm picking at you - just trying to help

 

[YasandCrystal]

I hope you don't think I'm picking at you - just trying to help

No I don't think you are picking on me - I respect your good knowledge of feeding and nutrients. Pernamax is a green lipped mussel supplement the predecessor to MaxVita for arthritis.
I went for the carob because I have a sugar and cereal intolerant WB who hated his bland feed and carob seemed perfect to sweeten it without any sugar. I was advised that it would be fine in winter when the grass was poor but to take care in summer when there was grass and therefore plenty of calcium and to be fair I do only feed a very small scoop - probably 500g a day to the mare.
I know that the Pernamax helps her as I have seen an improvement.I do worry that the horses are getting their necessary vitamins and minerals, which is why I probably err on 'overfeeding' them rather than them being deficient. My lami prone pony gets cinnamon and a cushings supplement (incase he is).
If the Red Rock offers iron maybe I need to just look to supplying an optional copper/zinc supplement they can take if they want/need it? and forget the general vit/mins.

btw my mare is an IDx so not a TB. I use TBs as an example as I have friends with them and even the unraced one which was never in a race regime has flat thin soled feet. She does have him BF but it has been a tremendous struggle.

 

[Clava]

I don't say that sensitive footed horses have poor genes at all - I am simply saying that some breeds do not seem to cope BF - and it is not uncommon for TBs to have flat feet and sensitive soles, which I am sure is a predisposition of the breed rather than the feeding regime.

My Tb does indeed have very senstitive soles and flatter feet....but only when I am not on top of her diet! Given the correct diet she is rock crunching and has lovely concavity, give her lush spring grass and it all goes splat. So it is easy for someone to think on the surface that tbs can't cope but that is often assuming that things can't change.

 

[Oberon]

Pernamax is a green lipped mussel supplement the predecessor to MaxVita for arthritis.

Sounds like good stuff

I went for the carob because I have a sugar and cereal intolerant WB who hated his bland feed and carob seemed perfect to sweeten it without any sugar. I was advised that it would be fine in winter when the grass was poor but to take care in summer when there was grass and therefore plenty of calcium and to be fair I do only feed a very small scoop - probably 500g a day to the mare.

I used the carob kibble - does yours smell like dead feet too? The delivery driver was always horrified

. But the horses LOVED it - I was very sad to stop using it....but it was causing us more harm than good.

I know that the Pernamax helps her as I have seen an improvement.I do worry that the horses are getting their necessary vitamins and minerals, which is why I probably err on 'overfeeding' them rather than them being deficient.

Horses are very good at getting what they need from grass/hay/haylage, sunlight and their own internal bacteria and enzymes.

Unless in hard work or elderly or diseased - they often only require a mineral supplement to patch what's wrong with the forage. I also feed linseed as a joint supplement in winter, turmeric and herbs for taste and therapy. Mixed into Fast Fibre, beet and hay chaff - that keeps my old boy looking well, despite his dodgy teeth. I often look longingly at the pony nuts at the feed merchants though

If the Red Rock offers iron maybe I need to just look to supplying an optional copper/zinc supplement they can take if they want/need it? and forget the general vit/mins.

I keep asking, but no one has invented one that fits the bill or that horses will take enough to benefit them, yet Although I am hoping someone is going to bring 'mineral treats' out at some point.

btw my mare is an IDx so not a TB. I use TBs as an example as I have friends with them and even the unraced one which was never in a race regime has flat thin soled feet. She does have him BF but it has been a tremendous struggle.

Sorry - my TB rant is a common one. I am liable to burst forth with it randomly at any moment. I can't scream at owners , so I have to rant about it on here

.

 

[tallyho!]

I agree the weak footed would have perished; so the debate in my head is just how far and how long to you try to get a horse BF and comfortable? If one acknowledges that not all horses can go BF comfortably whether that is through their workload or livery circumstances or their genes and foot makeup..

Bloody good question. I guess it depends what you are doing to get horse comfortable. Absolutely 100% agree that you need to draw the line somewhere and this is where people with experience come in. In most cases preparation is key to performing BF. If you have a compromised horse to begin with, should you even consider it? If you do, on what grounds and what support do you have? What knowledge "base" (you, your vet, farrier, nutritioninst, physio etc) are you starting from?

Just an example: My "compromised" case was a laminitic, with navicular and a profound upright or boxy foot. Constantly lame despite £££ in remedial work. I was lucky I had the support of a good well connected vet who, at the prospect of nowhere to go but surgery, decided that BF was a valid option. But, wouldn't you think this horse was the worst sort to go BF???? A laminitic with "poor" feet? I was under no illusion this would take time and the help of lots of experienced people.

You (the owner of any said horse) are the only one who knows the answer to how long and how far. It's partly acknowledging the limitations before you start, and partly getting the right support.

Would I have gone through it if he were sound in shoes? I don't think I would have. The fact that I did does beg the question 'where did I draw the line?' I guess it was the "improvement from baseline" as a primary endpoint after a certain period of time. The trajectory was an upward curve so I carried on.

In your case, it wasn't so you re-assess, if you want, as you are doing now of course you don't have to re-assess, you could just close the case and say this horse has to have to shoes on to stay sound based on all careful considerations & options. That would be valid.

 

[YasandCrystal]

Bloody good question. I guess it depends what you are doing to get horse comfortable. Absolutely 100% agree that you need to draw the line somewhere and this is where people with experience come in. In most cases preparation is key to performing BF. If you have a compromised horse to begin with, should you even consider it? If you do, on what grounds and what support do you have? What knowledge "base" (you, your vet, farrier, nutritioninst, physio etc) are you starting from?

Just an example: My "compromised" case was a laminitic, with navicular and a profound upright or boxy foot. Constantly lame despite £££ in remedial work. I was lucky I had the support of a good well connected vet who, at the prospect of nowhere to go but surgery, decided that BF was a valid option. But, wouldn't you think this horse was the worst sort to go BF???? A laminitic with "poor" feet? I was under no illusion this would take time and the help of lots of experienced people.

You (the owner of any said horse) are the only one who knows the answer to how long and how far. It's partly acknowledging the limitations before you start, and partly getting the right support.

Would I have gone through it if he were sound in shoes? I don't think I would have. The fact that I did does beg the question 'where did I draw the line?' I guess it was the "improvement from baseline" as a primary endpoint after a certain period of time. The trajectory was an upward curve so I carried on.

In your case, it wasn't so you re-assess, if you want, as you are doing now of course you don't have to re-assess, you could just close the case and say this horse has to have to shoes on to stay sound based on all careful considerations & options. That would be valid.

Hmmm it is very interesting. I listen to tales from my OH and the cases where BF has 'saved' the horse are truly uplifting. He is the first to recommend it where there is an ongoing soundness issue and honestly so often letting the foot find it's own maybe quirky balance can be the answer. I also listen to his tales where he warns owners about their horsecare and where it will lead and sadly sometimes these forecasts come to fruition.
It is indeed more difficult starting from a place I needn't change from ie. shod with a farrier as OH.I will persevere and add the recommended supplement and remove the unnecessary ones and see what happens.

And yes Oberon - carob kibble stinks like cheesey feet. The kids always moan as I leave the bags in the boot for days - it's a good incentive to get the eldest son to move them for me! The dogs love it too.