The best horses cost the most money - DISCUSS

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Andiamo

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The best horses cost the most money - DISCUSS

Just wondering what your thoughts are on this...I thought it is a lovely contentious subject and I would love to get both sides of the argument!

Reason for asking: I'm interested in finding a new competition horse, but someone I know has suggested to me it's not worth bothering, unless you have £35-60,000 to spend. The comments were, "if you can't afford this price range, don't ride". "Wait a few years, save up until you can afford it".

I disagree for MANY reasons. Anyway, I would love to hear your rags to riches stories of inexpensive horses, that have done really well, despite their low price tag ;) A good friend mentioned to me, as an example, that Valegro cost £6,500. Wow, he wasn't big budget, but he's on top of the world! I also know that comp judges wouldn't necessarily agree with the opinion either (that only the most expensive horses can do well)... because it's usually the big-budget horses that are standing on two legs in a corner of the arena trying to ditch its rider... whereas the little rhythmical mixed-breed native-types win the class - with the highest scores - because they're sane and consistent, and able to execute the test without having a mental meltdown. Anyway, if we should only buy BIG budget horses, then it perpetuates the myth that riding is elitist and only for the wealthy - this simply isn't true- you get what you can for your budget and you do the best with it - even a £1 horse can be worth a million pounds to its owner - and do well with some nice training etc.

Anyway, please share your stories of horses that have done well without costing the earth! I know a few HHO'ers who have wonderful experiences to share :)
 
It depends on what you want and need, doesn't it? I very much doubt I'd enjoy riding a £60k horse at all, and it would be a colossal waste of time and money trying. That money buys talent and attitude that far outstrips my own.

In a way, I do agree though. It is easier if you buy the best and most appropriate horse that you can, and if your budget can't stretch to that then you have a much harder journey ahead of you. I think you need to assess goals carefully as well: if you want to win at the Olympics then a £1k ex-racer probably won't cut it. If you want to win at Novice, they might...

TarrSteps says on here that teaching a pig to sing gets no one anywhere (paraphrasing massively!) and I think that's very applicable here. There is almost no point trying to make a horse who is going to struggle to a demanding job, no one wins there and generally someone ends up broken. There's so much emphasis on all the underdog stories and people winning against the odds that people forget that these stories are special and much touted because they are so rare. For every bargain-basement winner there are tens of horses who got there far more easily and generally last longer.

I'd love a source for £6.5k for Valegro too btw :)
 
@Lolo - thanks for your reply :) All excellent points.
Not everyone wants to be an Olympic rider. We don't all have the same level of aspirations, but when we achieve our goals, no matter how big or small, they mean the world to us, no matter what our level or ability.
I don't agree with this person's opinion that it's better to wait until you have £50-60K to buy a horse...and in the meantime (in the years while you're saving), you can't afford to ride, and your ridden skills and confidence deteriorate. Someone in this situation would be 3 + years without a horse, maybe the occasional lesson on a schoolmaster, then would be expecting to get on a highly trained Adv Medium horse after this period of time, and would most likely end up on the floor, and having to pay a pro to ride it. It's completely unrealistic.

I also agree you can't teach a pig to sing. But just because a horse doesn't have a high price tag, doesn't mean it's not quality stock, with ability for the advanced levels.

I know someone with a PSG horse, who paid £3K for it as a 4 year old, but ended up keeping it because it was too quirky to be sold...the horse is competing at a high level and has the ability and talent to keep moving up... I know someone else with a horse competing at International FEI comps, and it cost about £10K at 4 years old. Someone else has a horse they bought from a novice, paid about £6K for it, and it is now at Grand Prix, winning. Not everyone has the money for a ready made push-button horse. It's also a lengthy process to get used to a horse that someone else has owned and/or trained for years...i.e Matthias Raith & Totilas.
It's like cars, not everyone has the money for a brand new Lambourghini - but the object is to get from A to B. A lot of different cars will get you from A to B. Not everyone wants to get there the fastest. Some people enjoy the ride, and it isn't just about the destination...
 
Lolo - 6.5k for Valegro was quoted in h&h last week in the dressage special edited by Carl Hester. Failed stallion grading so sold reasonably cheap.
 
First, define 'best'. Who said you need to pay £30k to get a horse to do lower level competition? But if you want one winning at PSG or Int or 1.30 then yes, it will be worth some money.

Young horses are trickier because potential doesn't always predict success. But again, why shouldn't a horse with all the obvious attributes to be top class not be priced accordingly?

What you seem to be leaving out of the equation is production costs. A horse at a higher level has cost more to produce and that is reflected in the price. Even for breeders, the price of a quality animal needs to offset the cost of producing less saleable stock. It's all relative, too. I know a horse bought for$
$7.5k that's gone to the Olympics. But it's a tb.with a fairly heavy race record - for a horse like that, that's a lot of money so someone knew what they had.

One thing that gets left out of these discussions is that the initial cost of the horse is a relatively minor point. People who say 'Oh, you can go to the top with a cheap horse, look at so and so,' usually want to believe that means the whole process was done on the cheap, and this is never the case. Even in the case of a horse like Valegro, not factoring training fees, he would have cost many tens of thousands of pounds. If someone had had to pay Carl and Charlotte for their time (as an amateur producer would) that would probably double the outlay.

So yes, I agree you don't always have to pay megabucks to get a top quality horse, but I think it's often a case of pay now or pay later.
 
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I think generally not
Nowadays maybe more so you have to pay the money
but caroline powell's lenamore was bout for 700
Toytown was also crazy cheap
Valegro really 6.5k is really cheap

I think straight forward horses are more expensive than 1s with major quirks even when you get right up to the top
Amateur wise you could pick up a nice grassroots eventer for 10k approx but if it was a bit loopy xc & wasn't everyone's ride you could pick it up for about 5k despite it having v.similar results

It's all subjective really :)
 
it is a tricky question but i am of the opinion that you get what you pay for 99% of the time. whenever ive tried to get a quality horse on the cheap its ended up with a hell of a lot of work and bruises. for example i have a very nice grey who really could be rather special (not just my opinion) i got him very cheaply (£2750) but with pretty severe behaviour issues and the money and time its costing to get him sorted out is A LOT and its caused me quite a few confidence knocks and bruises along the way. Ive just bought a new horse and i decided that this time i wanted to spend a decent amount of money to get something good, now even though this horse hasnt evented yet I paid £11k for it (and it was cheap at that as got it from a friend) as its talented and very very genuine and easy to ride. In hindsight I wouldnt have bought the grey but waited till I had a bigger budget to get something a lot easier!
 
I think that if most "average" horses were with pro riders for their ridden careers, they would obviously do a hell of a lot better than a novice amateur.

Although sometimes cheap nags can work out. My first horse was a £2k nag. Well he wasn't really a nag, he was actually a 16.3 nh style tb, well bred quality animal. I didn't get very far with him comp wise, as I didn't really know what I was doing. If I still had him I have far more knowledge now.

But on the other hand of all the horses I've owned, I'd rather have Henry back than all of the rest of them put together.,

And as per beckys comment, I will be saving up for my next horse, and going to buy one that can do the job I want, is safe, and is like my first horse!
 
I don't think Toytown was crazy cheap, given what he'd done etc. I'm sure the person who sSome d him to Zara paid less for him but that's the point.

To add to my earlier point about production, it costs to produce even a good quality lower level horse. I often see people bemoaning the fact that their horses lack this or that skill but they also lack the time/money/resources to work on the issue. Some horses are easier to produce than others but this usually means they cost more so again, swings and roundabouts.
 
Wasn't the Valegro 6.5k part of the April Fools article??

I remember Mark Phillips explaining how toytown was spotted at pony club, but the owner initally refused to part with him so i am sure they must have upped the price tag to get him!
 
It's all very well being able to purchase a potentially very good competition horse but you still have to have the talent (and funds) to produce it.

I'm under no illusion that cheap horses that go on to perform can be purchased. But there is often an experienced eye involved and a heavy dose of luck.

There would be far more cheap 'potential superstars' that are big disappointments!!

And in reference to the 60k horse - if you can't afford to buy that type of horse outright without saving for years then you cannot afford to train such an animal to the best of its potential.
 
Tough one. I think that you get what you pay for - most people have an idea what their horse is worth, so you'll pay for results, or you'll pay for potential. People breeding these top class youngsters won't want to sell them cheap!

I think for low to mid level, you don't HAVE to spend a huge amount on a horse, however you will spend the money on the training. High level, if you know what you're looking for, you could pick up a bargain, but like TS said you'll still spend the money on training, so taking a gamble on a cheap horse may actually prove more expensive in the long run!

Personally, I've never spent more than 1.5k on a horse. However next time round, I want to save and be able to spend about 10k or so on something really nice. I'm just tired of realising that there's a reason they were priced so cheap, whether lack of talent, lack of trainability or physical problems... and I actually want to try and get somewhere.

Competing at these tops levels where you would spent 50k on a horse - why scrimp on the purchase price for something that may not have the ability??

Not to say cheap horses can't succeed, but being willing to spend more lets you view another class of animal, and then you can make your decision on what suits you best.
 
A 'cheap' youngster may or may not do well but it will cost a lot to produce to a high level. A decent price tag comes with a 'guarantee' that the horse is competing to that level already... Would be heartbreaking to produce a horse to be competing well at 6 and it get kicked and PTS-and then have to start the whole process again.

Potential is a very loaded word
 
tonkatoy said:
Wasn't the Valegro 6.5k part of the April Fools article??

I remember Mark Phillips explaining how toytown was spotted at pony club, but the owner initally refused to part with him so i am sure they must have upped the price tag to get him!
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No, it was the expensive dressage horse article. As a failed stallion he would not have been expensive.

Toytown came from/through someone quite experienced, he wasn't some random horse not doing the job for someone that they picked up cheap
 
You start with a better chance when you the horse has the best breeding and production behind it, but, as others have said, your talent and wallet to pay for future training have to match up with that!
It's probably more likely you're going to find cheap superstars for eventing, good young dressage and SJers do get overlooked if they're small, incorrect or tricky and then a good rider may be able to produce them to still be stars.
It also depends on your definition of 'best'. Sure, you may win National titles at the lower levels on a more ordinary but correct horse but it's not going to win Olympic medals
 
I suppose it depends on what you class as best. Best for me is sane, genuine, sound, bombproof, easy to do, with enough talent to do grassroots eventing and enough scope to take on a big hedge out hunting. I bought mine as a scrawny 5 year old who had done a lot of hunting and nothing else but ticked all of the boxes above. I was told I overpaid at 4k but 2 years learning flatwork and sj and the same people now agree he would be worth more than double that. I think 'best' for an amateur is more about attitude than breeding and talent.
 
Again, it depends on your terms. He wasn't 30k but he wasn't 1k either. And, again, 3 international level riders involved in the direct family alone. :)
 
I guess it depends what you want it for. Getting to the olympics - of course you stand a better shot if you buy something ready-made/proven.

I guess you're paying simply to be in the rosettes/high level. Experience and riding/horsemanship skills can still be gleaned from the most awkward and ugly of dobbins. But then again you're not going to get to the Olympics on a hairy 14hh crossbreed!! It all depends on priorities :)
 
Oooh good one! My answer would be they can be expensive but they don't have to be expensive. We all know a rags to riches story, only have to look at the sparkle sisters on here!
It also depends by your definition of a good horse! My good horse is one that'example re brave and easy for an amature to have fun on. A world class potential SJ or DR warmblood with the temperament to match would not be fun for me and therefore not worth £1 or £1,000,000.
I think eventing it's easier to find the diamonds in the rough, SJ and Dr it's harder I think to compete successfully without a purpose bred horse, at the high levels anyway!
Here in Calif even mediocre horses are expensive if they have any sort of competition record, look pretty and are safe for an amature. My horse is worth around 6k in the UK, I paid 2.5k for him as a baby and here he is worth upwards of $35,000 dollars just because he has a pretty face and can canter round a 3ft course at a show all day with a nervous amature hanging into his neckstrap!
We have wb horses at the barn bought for more than $100,000 just for doing 2ft6 to 2ft9 show hunters. They wouldn't be worth a fraction of that in the UK!
Here it is more expensive to train and compete than in england which means less horses get out competing which means those that do are worth more. Makes sense.
Some people I think also love to throw money at an expensive horse like they do an expensive car, because it costs a lot it must be good. Problem is that isn't always the case and some of the best movers and jumpers also need the best riders! Totilas perfect example :(.
 
I guess there's no easy answer... the general rule it seems, is that £40-60,000 will get you a good horse, it could be out placing at Adv Medium. But put another rider on it, and it could look like a completely different horse, and the comps could be an altogether different story. It's a question of whether someone wants the "easy life" - and get something that is ready made or push-button.

I personally find it fulfilling to train the horse myself, obviously with help from the ground. Sure, if I had an extra £60K lying around to spend a horse, I'm not even sure I would buy the ready made deal. It's too easy! I like a bit of a challenge :)) If someone else has trained it, it doesn't feel like it's "my work"...it's not as rewarding. It's a bit like buying a house - are you someone who likes to buy something that is perfect and ready to move into....or do you prefer one that you can "do up" and put your own stamp on it? I'm the latter.

Sure production costs are always part of the equation, but if you can do some of it yourself, then why should the costs be so high?... if someone wants to be an "owner" not a rider of the horse, and pay someone else to train it, and never actually sit on it themselves, then prod'n costs will be high of course. Personally, I'm not someone who can stand by and watch someone else ride my horse...it's my horse, I want to ride it, it's the whole reason I have it :))

Anyway, in terms of this thread, "Big Budget" is around £40K and up. £10-20K is "cheap".

I don't need anything that is FEI ready...I don't aspire to ride at that level, I work for a living (not with horses), horses are not a career for me - it's a serious passion, like for most HHO'ers - and I would like to do as well as I can, but I don't need to ride at PSG / Inter 1 to feel I've been successful :)) Sure, it would be nice if it happened :), but there are no plans or aspirations for it. Therefore for me, I don't need a £60K horse... I'd still like a nice warmblood, with elegance and long legs, with a nice movement, charming temperament and in my experience and opinion, you can get this for under £20K, granted it will be a young'un. The young ones need time and money to bring them up through the levels. But conversely, a ready made PSG horse will also need regular training by a pro to keep it fit and schooling at it's current level...that also costs money, it's very expensive, because you need a high level successful discipline-specific rider to do it. So, back to "swings and roundabouts"! :) :)
 
I love competing, but training for me is more fun, so I like something a little green :)

I would kill for some lessons on a decent schoolmaster though ;)
 
I think it is a fallacy that money always buys 'an easy life' to success. It doesn't strike me that too many GP or 4* riders have it easy, and the same is largely true for competitive amateurs. I think there is something quite snobbish about saying 'So and so paid £xx,xxx for their horse but I didn't so that makes me a better rider.' In my experience it doesn't usually work out so neatly.

If you want something very specific, say for showing or American show hunters, then it will be ever harder to find a bargain. As Firewell says, there are horses priced quite reasonably here that would cost a lot more in US BUT they would have to be a very specific type. By the same token, there would be show horses worth a lot here that wouldn't transfer well because they don't jump well enough and there are really no high profile, non jumping showing classes there. Price has a lot to do with context.

Ditto dressage. A horse without an active hind leg might be quite competitive up to Novice if it's pretty and ridable, but you're stuffed much beyond that. This also goes to what people will pay - you aren't going to get everything, especially on a budget, so it depends what you're willing to compromise on.
 
Andiamo said:
Anyway, in terms of this thread, "Big Budget" is around £40K and up. £10-20K is "cheap".
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Ah, okay, mine are all <£2k lol, so again people's own terms of what is expensive and what is not comes into it! I'm sure there are those out there who think £40k is cheap!
 
Andiamo said:
I guess there's no easy answer... the general rule it seems, is that £40-60,000 will get you a good horse, it could be out placing at Adv Medium. But put another rider on it, and it could look like a completely different horse, and the comps could be an altogether different story. It's a question of whether someone wants the "easy life" - and get something that is ready made or push-button.

I personally find it fulfilling to train the horse myself, obviously with help from the ground. Sure, if I had an extra £60K lying around to spend a horse, I'm not even sure I would buy the ready made deal. It's too easy! I like a bit of a challenge :)) If someone else has trained it, it doesn't feel like it's "my work"...it's not as rewarding. It's a bit like buying a house - are you someone who likes to buy something that is perfect and ready to move into....or do you prefer one that you can "do up" and put your own stamp on it? I'm the latter.
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If you have a way of raising those substantial sums then find a pro set-up to train in and source an super schoolmaster to do it on. It'll be an amazing learning opportunity and just think how much more knowledge/ skills/ strength you will have to then go back and produce young horses in the future. Why handicap yourself?
 
To me part of the problem with saving for an expensive horse - many times your normal budget, whatever that may be - is the knock on effect. The more expensive the horse is, the more pressure you will be under to achieve good results which probably means pressure to spend more on training/tack/competing etc. The finiancial consequences of that horse getting injured would likely be worse too, if you weren't able to recover the full cost from your insurer. Throw in the fact that a more expensive horse is no more guaranteed to be sound and sane than a cheap one and to me it makes more sense to settle for something cheaper though possibly with a bit of saving because, for example, a 5k horse is probably going to be better than a 2k one.
 
loobylu said:
If you have a way of raising those substantial sums then find a pro set-up to train in and source an super schoolmaster to do it on. It'll be an amazing learning opportunity and just think how much more knowledge/ skills/ strength you will have to then go back and produce young horses in the future. Why handicap yourself?
Click to expand...

Very good points. If you want to struggle our lack resources, then there is no reason to pay more than you want/can afford. You can certainly enjoy horses at all sorts of levels.

But money buys options and opportunity. Why would you not spend it if you can? Being able to have top instruction and be competitive at a high level is tremendously fun and rewarding, too.
 
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