'The Big Move' today - and a question about worming

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Erehwemos

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We move Ellie to her new yard tonight
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I truly cant wait, I like where we are at the moment - it's very quiet, lovely hacking and there are minimal yard politics - but when we went to prepare her new stable yesterday, it struck me how lovely it will be for her to have so much more room (current 9 x 11 ft, new 13 x 12 ft). It will be sad to leave where we are but if I am honest, I dont know I ever really felt like I 'fitted in' - probably because I made the choice not to, I dont know. I also dont think anybody ever really liked Ellie that much, and although that shouldnt matter, it did get to me a bit when people kept on and on about her 'being like a stallion', being 'dangerous' etc, etc. But hey ho, onwards and upwards
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At present, we are on a worming programme (through a specialist worming management company) as directed by our YO. This is actually coming to an end now anyway, seeing as we moved here almost exactly a year ago. I just wondered what people's opinions are on these types of programmes - do you think they are worth the money, or would you prefer just to buy wormers and worm your horse yourself? I have really mixed feelings about it; when Ellie was first tested she had an egg count of about 400; now she has 75 (at one point she was negative) but it doesnt mean much to me! Another mare at the yard started out negative and now has an egg count of 1750 - so I am a bit skeptical about how it all works. It also cost us £130 for the year, and tbh I really find myself wondering what I got for that - she was only wormed twice, and I had no one-to-one communication with the company at all, it was all done through our YO. I have since emailed the company telling them I am about to move and so they need to now deal with me, but they have not got back to me.

What do you think I should do?
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ETS at the current yard, we are all on group turnout - five horses in a field of about 7 acres, with no poo picking. At new yard, she will be in an individual paddock where I will be poo picking each week
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I really am not a fan of the worm count routine - i was very very dissapointd with my last venture into this. I never received the results back until i chased and chased and i was really never convinced they were actually my results tested.

You can get a good worming programe from womers direct. I used to use these prior to moving to a yard where they are on a "group" programme. TBH - i dont think people understand that there is little point you doing your own if eveyone else is doing something else or not bothering. Ok its better than doing nothing but you can be chucking money down the drain.
 
Ooh that looks interesting! The grumpy old woman in my head wonders how much of the charge is actually a huge profit though, and if you couldn't do it just as well and for less money by doing it yourself??
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Previous threads on Intelligent Worming:

Thread 1

Thread 2
 
No Advise RE Worming but just wanted to say I hope the move goes well and Ellie settle in her new home quickly!
 
Thankies Horse_Crazy2!
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I hope she doesnt make an eejit of herself when she finds herself alone in the field...we shall see tomorrow
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ali_m - I should think the profit margin for them is huge. They tried to tell us last year that we would be saving a lot of money on wormers, but somehow that doesnt mathematically work out....my wormers have never costed me £130 a year...

Gingerwitch - totally agree about everyone doing their own thing, a programme like this seems a bit pointless doesnt it! Especially seeing as I think new YO likes to rotate horses around so they're not always in the same place - I.W's programme would be useless then, surely
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wormers can only by sold by a SQP, vet, or pharmasist, as they are a pescribale , they will need to talk to you about your horse, and help you devise a worming plan for your horse.
 
A question about Equest PRAMOX. I have bought this to give to my horse and if I read it right I ahve to keep him in for 3 days. Our grazing is rubbish and is really only turnout and as soon as the weather breaks I will be forced to bring him in so I am tempted to leave it until then but why 3 days ??
 
I follow my own worm count programme (not one a company does for me) and use Westgate Laboratories (http://www.westgatelabs.co.uk/) for the counts. They are extremely efficient, have always given me a result within 24 hrs no hassle, and if any action is needed they advise as to the right wormer.

I do two worm counts, summer and winter, and routinely worm for tapeworm in Sept and tapeworm/encysted redworm in Dec. I have never had worm counts in anything other than new horses.

Good luck in your new yard - sounds lovely!
 
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wormers can only by sold by a SQP, vet, or pharmasist, as they are a pescribale , they will need to talk to you about your horse, and help you devise a worming plan for your horse.

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I don't think that is right. You do not need a prescription to buy wormers and although your vet or equine pharmacy will stock them, so will many large tack shops and endless on line shops.

Of course though your vet can advise you on a worming programme.
 
Purplestar - that cannot be right, as the last wormer I bought came from Countrywide over the counter! They make you sign for it but there was no problem buying it - I assume this hasnt changed in the last 12 months?

Flibble - I would imagine it's to do with the fact that the wormer is flushing out anything he may have in his system, and it takes three days to ensure it has completely gone through him - the idea being that at least if he has had eggs/worms they will end up in his stable, not in the field where he then may re-ingest it
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That would be my take on it; could be wrong though!
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Booboos - you're not the first to recommend Westgate so I will look into it! I would prefer to be 'in control' again so that sounds good
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Am so looking forward to later, her new stable is so lovely, and she has a very handsome grey nextdoor neighbour who she can squeal with over the wall all night if she pleases
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I'm not surprised that with 5 horses on 7 acres of un poo picked land that some are getting worms,seems like a complete waste of money using a worm count system and then keeping the horse in such an environment.
Your new yard sounds much better and with a poo picked field then either worming system should work although worming yourself will be a whole lot cheaper. You can get a year pack of wormers for around £50.
 
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I'm not surprised that with 5 horses on 7 acres of un poo picked land that some are getting worms,seems like a complete waste of money using a worm count system and then keeping the horse in such an environment.
Your new yard sounds much better and with a poo picked field then either worming system should work although worming yourself will be a whole lot cheaper. You can get a year pack of wormers for around £50.

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That's exactly what everyone on the yard felt at the time, but YO insisted we all went on this programme! The cost hit some people quite hard too, especially one lady who had 3 horses - £390 for a year's worming!?!?!
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It was one of those things we just couldnt argue with. In hind sight, it's another reason I'll be quite glad to move - I can be fully in control of my own horse again
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My worming programme on my yard is Equest Pramox in Spring and Autumn and then worm counts inbetween. Every horse is below 50 (thats 38 horses) so obviously works. Oh but they are all poo pick at least once a week.
 
right will try to answer a few queries!

firstly if you are poo picking twice a week in summer and once a week in winter you should keep on top of worms on pasture (no need for any more frequent due to the time taken for worms to change from eggs to infective L3 larvae.)

worm count methods are fraught with problems though due to the aggregation of worms in the horse population and aggregation of eggs in the droppings, you really need to take a representative sample of the whole poo (ie put whole poo in blender and take a sample out) this effect can be less of a problem the more counts you do. they give no idea of encysted redworm or tapeworm

you cannot get a negative reading I am surprised if any are reported as such as it is misleading the test has a limit of sensitivity (ie if you see no eggs) I am not sure how the commercial testing is done but traditionally this would be <50 epg )eggs per gram.

anyone who sells wormers must have a sqp who can give you advice if you want it, batch numbers and addresses need to be recorded and the sqp must sign for the sale.

Flibble, I have to check, I havent seen what is written I think the pramox is because of the praziquantel acting to paralyse rather than kill the tape worms, I think gor other worms they are killed rather than paralysed so anything expelled won't be producing eggs. Tape worms cannot directly be ingested by horses but to become infective have to go through a snail first so as long as you poo pick after worming you should be fine. Give them a ring if you aren't sure

what do I do?- I am all for reducing the amount of chemical wormers used because we have to try and stop the development of resistance to the ones we have.

I worm for tapeworm twice a year, encysted redworm/bots at xmas and once with ivermectin during the grazing season. We poo pick daily as mum prefers not to have to do it all in one go. It should work that a horse with a low summer burden will be at less risk of an encysted problem but I would rather treat anyway.
 
It is quite correct to say that wormers are prescription only drugs. Much work has gone on in the background to ensure that we are still able to buy them in tackshops as there was a move to make them only available from vets.

The person selling them in a shop is an 'SQP' and is able to prescribe wormers because he/she has been on a course and passed an exam. They must undertake cpd, continuous professional development too to be up to date. The premises must also be registered and there are more rules which the shop must keep to. As you can imagine this all costs quite a bit for those involved.

These days we are trying to avoid unnecessary use of wormers so that they will remain effective when we really need them. Worm count programmes are a good way to do this. We (Westgate Labs) have thousands of clients who use this system very successfully, a series of worm counts, taken at the right time, over years, being much more reliable than a one off test. As SQPs we can also advise on correct worming if required, and make sure that the essential doses are included in the programme. Any help or advice is freely given, just ask.
 
Thank you for your reply, Gillb - can I just ask, in what way does your programme differ to, for instance, that of Intelligent Worming? Do you essentially offer the same service or not?
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Re Equest Pramox

I queried this 3 day thing with them and it's to make sure the drug exits the body away from any watercourses as it's pretty harmful. There is also some question about it affecting certain earth organisms.

I was advised, that that is what they HAVE to advise. But, to use your common sense.
 
not quite perscription would be POM (perscription only medicine) wormers are PML (pharmacy merchants list) or I think since I stopped being involved now nfa-vps non-food animal — veterinarian, pharmacist and “suitably qualified person"

much more of a mouth full!

agree though gillb, that worm counts are more beneficial to give a long term picture than one off tests

when I was in a position to do my own testing I did this instead of use wormers as I could do as much testing as I liked.

I do get worried about what some people post on here that use a number of fwec suppliers and think they are either misled or don't understand the results they are given.
 
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Re Equest Pramox

I queried this 3 day thing with them and it's to make sure the drug exits the body away from any watercourses as it's pretty harmful. There is also some question about it affecting certain earth organisms.

I was advised, that that is what they HAVE to advise. But, to use your common sense.

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ah yes thats right, actually no wormer is terribly nice to other invertebrates, I remember those who built fake cow pats at uni!- use of wormer can prevebt the degradation of such pats!
 
Mizelz, we do not sell wormers as like to remain impartial, that is the main difference. When you need them you can buy where you choose.
There is lots to read on our website, but as I'm not into advertising it is easily googled!
 
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Mizelz, we do not sell wormers as like to remain impartial, that is the main difference. When you need them you can buy where you choose.
There is lots to read on our website, but as I'm not into advertising it is easily googled!

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No problem, I will get googling
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Thanks very much!

ester - thank you to you as well, you've been very helpful!
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no probs, I gabble sometimes and sound like I don't like fwec, I do but people need to do it frequently enough and know what the results mean and why they might be what they are in order for it to work at its best. As gillb says they can help and explain on the phone so I think more people should ring them rather than thinking its super complicated
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sheep worms are soo much easier............ and their poos smaller!
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wow that seems a lot of money for what you are getting. You could maybe try worm counting only and just worm for tapeworm if she is on indvidual turnout and you poo pick. No point - filling her with chemicals and paying lots of money for it if she has very low worm count.

Give a good dose of something when you move and then worm count in 6 weeks.
 
You need to be an SQP to sell wormers, this is a course and exam you take to ensure you are qualified to advise, not that a prescription is needed. Those selling over the counter and online are, or should be, an SQP.

I use my own count/worm programme using Abbey Diagnostics. She will advise if a wormer is required, and which type if you ask,but you are given guidelines at to when you need to worm. Much cheaper than paying for someone to do your count, advise and provide the wormers.
 
double dose for tape worm spring and autumn and dose at 11 to 13 weeks inbetween. pooh pick fields, harrow and cross graze if possible.! works for me and i keep 25 on 29 acres of land. all fat shiny muscled in work and happy!! (and low worm count!) keep a record from yrear to year as it is the drug they become resistant to not the brand name! my vey advises me as to what is suitable year on. occaisionally dates do not co incide so will shorten the gap not lengthen it! all new horses are wormed on arrival and kept in for 48 hours or in a small turnout area . we pooh pick every day!!
 
Our yard did a worm count. Completely pointless! Still ended up havign to worm every horse
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As majority of ours were clear with only two neds with worms, they must have picked them up when we moved. There was nothing about keeping neds in when they arrived.
 
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