The biting HAS to stop

So do you 'crack him one' before he bites? I don't see how hitting a confirmed biter will stop him myself, sounds like he has learned to bite because it works for him. Hitting him may well teach him to up the anti.
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This is what I worry about.

From the people who are saying to smack him, how would you do this when he is being aggressive as you apprach him when he is not in reach?
 
amymay said:
So your comments are totally irrelevant then.
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No if you care to read them, it is a mare that has every potential to bite, but doesn't due to my approach.

If you then care to read a little further back, another example of a college horse who is okay with my approach (strange that)

Anyway I shall leave you to it on this forum. You know best ;)
 
It helps to know the full facts eg why he is biting, specific response to a situation or just aggression etc but without that i have to say if any horse went to bite me it would get a sharp quick smack on the nose accompanied by a loud AHAH from me without a second thought. Never had to do it twice.
 
amymay said:
All horses have potential to bite, though.
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Okay you are struggling to think outside the box here.
She is not just a mare that stands nicely and pricks her ears to be tacked up as I've explained.

She has the potential... As in she has made attempts when first getting her but I nipped it in the bud straight away and it did not involve raising a hand.
 
Imogen_ said:
No if you care to read them, it is a mare that has every potential to bite...
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You mean it has a full set of teeth? So do all of mine, and none of them ever bite because they knowfrom experience they would get a smack for it. Despite that, they're not headshy, they're keen to be around humans (god knows, I can't get rid of the 2 year old).

It's all about timing. The smack should come during the "lunge" phase - before the bite while the teeth are coming at you, or immediately after it's bitten you if you don't have warning. Smacking a horse 30s after, when it's no longer behaving undesirably is useless.
 
I don't think smacking works to lessen the agression with every horse. I know for some, that a well timed tap is enough to realise that they have stepped over the line, but what if your horse is beyond being a bit bolshy, and this is engrained behaviour as a result of previous experience?

I know that if I smacked my horse it would only set me back in terms of us working together, he'd get more defensive and I'd be back to square one. Granted, my horse is a face puller rather than a biter, but I think it could well have escalated had I not carried on calmly around him, ignoring the faces and giving him a scratch in his favourite spot when he's good. With my horse, he learnt that pulling faces kept people at arms length, and along with the environment he was kept in (ex racehorse) it just sent his sensitive brain in to overdrive, so I believe he did what he could to keep himself feeling safe. He's in a very calm environment now, with consistent calm handling, but old habits die hard.
 
Imogen_ said:
She has the potential... As in she has made attempts when first getting her but I nipped it in the bud straight away and it did not involve raising a hand.
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And that is absolute credit to you - there are more than two ways to skin a cat. It was a bucket of water over the head that did it for a horse of mine...... So you see, I can think outside the box.
 
Footlights said:
He does it when he is tied up and I approach him, he pins his ears back, shows his teeth and sometimes goes to actually bite. I usually growl at him, and then ask him to back up out of my space. This obviously isn't working.
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Do you have to tie him up? How is he if you tie him somewhere else?

Perhaps training him to 'stand' on a long rope or even loose with lots of reward, increasing the distance you are from him slowly and then retraining him how to tie using the same approach may help.
 
Normally i'd advocate a swift smack for biting, but that's for a horse just pushing it's luck and see if it'll work. Young horses and the cheeky. A hard shock quickly tells them it's not gaining them anything nice!

However your horse sounds more ingrained and the fact he's not actually biting, but warming you off, suggests it's a trust and respect issue, which won't really be solved by snacking him. I'd imagine he's also well used to it from the past and it clearly hasn't worked then either (he's still trying to bite!). Often facing aggression with aggression just makes them worse.

Have you done much groundwork with him? Moving his feet? Giving to pressure both away and towards you? Touching him all over until he's relaxed and happy (not the same as tolerating it!). Given him the chance (whilst loose) to stay or move away? He'll have been handled by a lot of people in the past at TB are notoriously thinskinned and sensitive. I wouldn't like it if someone I don't know very well came up and started touching me:eek: : why should he?! Some horses tolerate it, others have a much bigger personal space bubble.

I'd ignore his threats for now, move him (calmly and quietly) back out of your space if it's more than just a nasty face, to avoid the confrontation as much as possible for now but most of all spend some time wig him loose to make friends and find where his real issue lies (what he really doesn't like about people approaching him, enough that he needs to be aggressive about it). If you're not sure how, get a groundwork instructor out to help(cost the same as a riding lesson and people on here could give you a reccomendation)
 
Listening to the OP, it sounds asthough this is more than a horse going in for a cheeky nip when straps are being done up - he's showing aggressive behaviour when she goes towards him.

To me, a horse that shows that much aggression when a person so much as goes near him is a very unhappy horse and the key thing is to work out whether his attitude is driven by mental pain or physical pain (checked for ulcers?).

Another thought - how do you approach him? Do you think about your body language? Does he react the same way to anyone? Might his stable environment make him defensive?
 
JFTD said:
You mean it has a full set of teeth? So do all of mine, and none of them ever bite because they knowfrom experience they would get a smack for it. Despite that, they're not headshy, they're keen to be around humans (god knows, I can't get rid of the 2 year old).

It's all about timing. The smack should come during the "lunge" phase - before the bite while the teeth are coming at you, or immediately after it's bitten you if you don't have warning. Smacking a horse 30s after, when it's no longer behaving undesirably is useless.
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No I don't mean that, I have already explained this.
cr** sarcasm btw
 
Imogen_ said:
No I don't mean that, I have already explained this.
cr** sarcasm btw
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In fairness, you hadn't when I posted that. However, your mare has a tendancy to bite - all horses have the potential. It's not sarcasm, it's a logical, albeit literal, conclusion from your choice of words :rolleyes:
 
Kallibear said:
I'd ignore his threats for now, move him (calmly and quietly) back out of your space if it's more than just a nasty face, to avoid the confrontation as much as possible for now but most of all spend some time wig him loose to make friends and find where his real issue lies (what he really doesn't like about people approaching him, enough that he needs to be aggressive about it). If you're not sure how, get a groundwork instructor out to help(cost the same as a riding lesson and people on here could give you a reccomendation)
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I meant to say to ignore his threats too. I think this is a good plan.
Also look for possible physical issues.
 
My boy used to 'attempt' to bite at one point, which i ignored until he actually made contact and caused a massive bruise. From then on, ANY movement in a nipping attempt had him a short sharp smack on his nose.. im not beating him, he would kill me, but a significant smack enough to shock him.

Now he will pull faces but leaves well alone.

They have a large mouth, an ample set of teeth and 1 tonne+ of force behind them- if a small smack stops my arm being taken off then so be it.
He spends 99% of his day in the field, i ride for an hour and during that hour i expect him to respect me with the respect i give him. I do not bite him and as such, he will not be allowed to bite me.
 
Monty was a right git about biting me and generally being an arse. He had bad treatment in the past but IMO that is not an excuse for continued dangerous behaviour. He would usually try to bite me when I was standing close to him so I used to pinch him on the neck/shoulder/tummy as he lunged for me. If he did it when I was trying to pick out his feet I would poke him with the hoofpick.

Worked a treat!
 
JFTD said:
In fairness, you hadn't when I posted that. However, your mare has a tendancy to bite - all horses have the potential. It's not sarcasm, it's a logical, albeit literal, conclusion from your choice of words :rolleyes:
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The bad sarcasm was the basic outline of horses having a full set of teeth...

As I have already said, she is not just a horse that has potential to bite. She already did attempt from when I first got her but she responded well to me ignoring her and not so well to someone raising a fist.
Not every horse is the same and all I am saying is for an ex racer who has been in a new home for only 2 months, is not showing just signs where a smack is needed.
 
Btw op. By ignore I don't mean do nothing about the situation. You must learn to be aware of him and read his intentions/responses as early as possible. :)
 
For some horses, I quick slap works wonders. For others it will make them 100x worse.

It depends WHY they're doing it. Being a cheeky little sod? I'd smack them before i'd even thought about it. Threatening and warning you off whilst you're still 10ft away? Absolutely not, as there's something far more serious going no than trying their luck. The biting is the end stage of the handler not listening to all the prior warnings! Ignoring all the warnings then punishing the horse when it esculate will only make them MORE defensive. To sort that kind of issue, you need to sort the root cause: why is the horse warning you off in the first place?
 
A horse will bite another horse that it does not respect. Same goes for humans. Often they bite because they are unhappy/uncomfortable and want to take it out on someone else (lower ranking herd member) or with a human because whatever is about to come will bring something unpleasant.

So:
1) He doesn't respect you
2) He's unhappy and possibly uncomfortable with it.
3) possibly you bring something which hurts - teeth, back etc.

The smacking thing only works where there's no discomfort behind the behaviour. I have one who's a bit nippy given the chance. She was cured as a youngster by a fair few well timed slaps and now I just need to warn and she stops trying. It's a game to her - she does it in the field with the others - can I nip you and get away before you get me back...

One of ours used to be horrific when it arrived. Bit, swung at you etc. The saddle, although it appeared to fit from outward appearances, was the wrong shape for the back. Different saddle, and the behaviour disappeared.
 
Kallibear said:
For some horses, I quick slap works wonders. For others it will make them 100x worse.

It depends WHY they're doing it. Being a cheeky little sod? I'd smack them before i'd even thought about it. Threatening and warning you off whilst you're still 10ft away? Absolutely not, as there's something far more serious going no than trying their luck. The biting is the end stage of the handler not listening to all the prior warnings! Ignoring all the warnings then punishing the horse when it esculate will only make them MORE defensive. To sort that kind of issue, you need to sort the root cause: why is the horse warning you off in the first place?
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I agree 100% with this
 
Imogen_ said:
The bad sarcasm was the basic outline of horses having a full set of teeth...

As I have already said, she is not just a horse that has potential to bite. She already did attempt from when I first got her but she responded well to me ignoring her and not so well to someone raising a fist.
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Please re-read the comment you quoted - it is not sarcasm to state that full set of teeth and a functioning jaw provides a horse with the potential to bite. Your mare, as I said above, has a tendancy to bite. I couldn't care less about your mare, since it is, in all likelihood, irrelevant to the OP. The point I was making was that your statement was not illustrative of your argument - pedantic, maybe.
 
For some horses, I quick slap works wonders. For others it will make them 100x worse.

It depends WHY they're doing it. Being a cheeky little sod? I'd smack them before i'd even thought about it. Threatening and warning you off whilst you're still 10ft away? Absolutely not, as there's something far more serious going no than trying their luck. The biting is the end stage of the handler not listening to all the prior warnings! Ignoring all the warnings then punishing the horse when it esculate will only make them MORE defensive. To sort that kind of issue, you need to sort the root cause: why is the horse warning you off in the first place?
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This is so true - but how do I find this out? I have never given him a reason not to trust me.
 
JFTD said:
Please re-read the comment you quoted - it is not sarcasm to state that full set of teeth and a functioning jaw provides a horse with the potential to bite. Your mare, as I said above, has a tendancy to bite. I couldn't care less about your mare, since it is, in all likelihood, irrelevant to the OP. The point I was making was that your statement was not illustrative of your argument - pedantic, maybe.
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I was giving an example of a horse who would not respond well to a raised hand.
I have already outlined that the horse in question does not sounds the type requiring a smack, I am sure you could sit on the internet all day and rant a point which is taking mine out of context. But I don't think you're helping the OP either so leave it at that.
 
I’ve not read through the whole thread and apologise if I’m repeating or getting the wrong end of the stick.

If he’s not already bitten you but is throwing threats about, it sounds like he’s sounding you out which is quite normal heard behaviour, only thing is he has to learn that you are not another horse and nor do you wish to be treated as one, basically the horse is trying establish who is wearing the trousers, he could just be feeling insecure so it’s more self defence on his part, if he was plan nasty he’d of had you by now.

Considering you have not had him long, you will not have built up a relationship/bond..what ever people like to call it, this takes time, some horses need longer than others but you need to be consistent in your handling and his routine, once he learns you are the boss so to speak, he’ll be a happier horse and will love having you around him.

Yes you have to firm and fair, a nippy horse is different to the horse you are describing though, so scolding a horse that is feeling insecure and defensive and has not actually bitten you will not do the horse any favours.

I think the best thing you can do at this stage is spend time with him, be confident around him, once he’s done what is asked, reward and leave him be, do plenty of ground work, grooming etc I bet you he will soon come round after another few months. Any threats he gives you punish him by sending him away even if it’s just asking him to step away and keeping a distance from you, don’t react or move away from him as that is what he’s expecting, it’s his way of controlling you.

Sometimes we do things without realising we are doing it and therefore teaching our horses bad habits because we are not correcting things when we should be at the crucial time, all these little things stat to add up over time...or over years, some horses are lets say a little more intelligent than others and pick on our weaknesses and therefore start to loose respect of the handler or people in general.

Go back to basics, give it some time, make sure you are handling him right on a daily basis and things will change sooner than you think.
 
Imogen_ said:
I was giving an example of a horse who would not respond well to a raised hand.
I have already outlined that the horse in question does not sounds the type requiring a smack, I am sure you could sit on the internet all day and rant a point which is taking mine out of context. But I don't think you're helping the OP either so leave it at that.
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I don't think you drivelling on about your mare is helping her either, but since it's a free forum, we can both continue to comment to our hearts' contents. I have already explained my point, if you are incapable of understanding it, that is hardly my problem :rolleyes:
 
Imogen_ said:
I am simply using it as an example.

My mare has never bitten me, only bitten one person who went in with a fist at the ready thank you.
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Oh, I see, she isn't a biter. I misunderstood, I read it as if she was a special case and would kill anyone if they stood up to her.

Going in on the attack is another matter.
 
Tie him up or run his lead rope from his headcollar through a tie ring and hold on to it so its pulled taut (but not tight, like hanging on) all the time.

Flame bites when you do up the front of her rug. Sometimes I smack her, sometimes I don't. Sometimes a look is enough to stop her making contact, sometimes it isn't. She never really means to hurt you though and she's barely ever broken the skin, but it is naughty. She knows damn well its naughty but she can't help herself and she does it anyway.

Keep your elbow pointed upwards too while you're doing up rugs, so usually if they swing round to bite you they get a dig in the cheek and you just get a bit of a sore elbow which is better than getting bitten. :)
 
Enfys said:
Oh, I see, she isn't a biter. You made it sound as if she was a special case and would kill anyone if they stood up to her.

Going in on the attack is another matter.
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Only myself and my mum handles her :S
I can assure you if someone she didn't know (oh wait, I've already said someone has) to go in and handle with a fist than the result would be different.
 
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