The biting thread, made me wonder

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poiuytrewq

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Someone asked my advice last week and I had absolutely nothing to give having never been in this situation. Reading Titchy Pony's thread just now made me think, this situation could becaome that situation so what should be done at this point ideally?

** NOT my dog so I can't swear to details being 100% or any advice being taken. I'm just interested for my own curiousity.

This or similar has happened a few times now, but most recently, Dog (big strong 2 y/o) Will take something he shouldnt have, this time it was a full pack of biscuits. He refuses to drop or give it up and instead heads for bed. Here is what I think is a big issue- Bed is under the stairs so needs a person to crawl in and presumably the dog is at the dead end back corner. At this point he starts growling/showing his teeth. He has then snapped when the ower perservered in getting the item back. Never bitten or even really tried to make contact.

Obviously the first thing is going to be don't leave stuff where he can get it. IF this was to happen in my house, I'd say leave or drop and praise when they do, which with the possible exeption of daughters terrier they all would , but this dog won't do that. My beds are also out in the open room so there would never be the risk of cornering or trapping them. I have to admit I'd be gutted if any of them growled or showed any sign of aggression to me and its (thank god) not something I've had to deal with.
I worry a bit about this dog though, he's huge and this seems to be his thing.
 
I don't like the sound of those interactions with the dog.

I'm sure people with more experience will be along soon. The first thing would obviously be to make sure there is nothing for the dog to take, problem avoided! I would also work on the dog leaving things that are not his, so teach him to not take food off table or counters, to only take food off the floor with permission, etc...
Teaching drop / leave would be good, probably using exchange at first, because lets be honest, nobody wants to give up something fun and / or delicious for nothing.
I would also teach a really strong recall with something really good at the end of it when he recalls from his bed, so that hopefully, if he takes something to his bed, I could call him out, shut him in a different room with his reward and go and retrieve whatever he had taken safely while he is not there.
All else failing, I would put safety first and consider whatever the dog took as lost. I wouldn't be crawling into a tight space to retrieve it from a resource guarding dog.
 
First up stop they must doing what you've described. I might be inclined to change the dog bed around so I'm not encouraging the behaviour
Secondly, teach the dog to trade, let them have something low value and trade for higher value item. Nylabone for chicken skin type job.
Thirdly, don't always go to take back what the dog has - if sometimes you trade, sometimes you allow they're less inclined to protect their spoils
 
I *think he's always been a bit ansty about giving things, even like dropping toys that stay in the garden.
Although as i say I didnt know what to advise really I did point out that crawling into his bed/den space was definitely not a good idea and I'd not be doing that for starters. I'm not sure if he would come out of the bed when called- or if that was tried.
 
So dogs can't talk and we only get the owner's side of the story and most pet dog owners miss the very subtle signs that lead up to behaviour like this and the repeated take take take of resources (usually in a temper) and giving nothing back, or something crap in return.

The easiest thing would be to not give the dog the opportunity to lift whatever it likes, by giving it something better, by containing it/not giving it free run, by not leaving stuff around and not letting it have access to human-inaccessible corners.

The owner is going to keep pushing and is going to get hurt and then we'll all read about it in the papers and the comments sections will be full of nonsense.
 
I've had a biter, many moons ago now, but a Border Collie. What I would say, is that we don't always have to be the dominant species, especially if it's fear driven aggression. If that had been my dog, I'd have just called him for something more exciting and shut him in the garden while I retrieved the biscuits. It's really not rocket science! You don't have to make everything a battle with dogs, and with one likely to bite, life is full of negotiations!

ETA - "leave it" is the first thing I teach every dog, probably because of my experience with the BC.
 
We took on a Rottweiler bitch who had had a bad start. She never bit anyone but did lock her jaw and refuse to give whatever she had in her mouth. We taught her to swap her treasure for a treat of some kind. That went a bit wrong one day when she was crunching a piece of coal, I tried to take it off her and realised that I had no treat to hand, so eventually put my finger into her open jaw (I knew her well by this time) to try to push the coal out. She felt my finger tickling the roof of her mouth and immediately opened her mouth!
However it did mean that when we got 2 Rott pups from their breeder we made sure that they understood that we could take anything we wanted, including food, from them. That is why we never played tug with them, it would have given mixed messages.
 
poiuytrewq said:
Initially she tried to swap for treats but he refused and ran into the bed.
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Here's what happens initially, when I tell people to reward their dog with food or swap something they shouldn't have for something more appropriate.

They give the poor dog ONE piece of kibble/hotdog, cheese, whatever. A packet of biscuits versus a Bonio? Nah.
It needs to be a big handful of something or very high value.
If you treat whatever they have like the crown jewels (I NEED that, I MUST have it back!) then they will also treat it accordingly, and you won't get it back.

When my incredibly possessive dog comes off the field with a ball or a sleeve, when it comes off her at the back of the car after having worked/fought for and 'won' it, she gets a huge handful of food.
 
My retired fell hound was 'difficult' in terms of resource guarding and trading but at least I understood her history so knew why it was hard for her. @CorvusCorax advice is excellent - a trade must look like a really good deal and should also be a kind of 'standard' transaction - not just an emergency one where our behavior screams of a difficult emotional situation. My hound learnt reasonably quickly how to trade, though never, ever did she agree not to steal in the first place! Some things I viewed as lost to her but I could eventually safely remove items and give a big reward with no hard feelings!

My terrier has never demonstrated any resource guarding unless he's hunted and killed a rat which is fine by me!
 
Pearlsasinger said:
We took on a Rottweiler bitch who had had a bad start. She never bit anyone but did lock her jaw and refuse to give whatever she had in her mouth. We taught her to swap her treasure for a treat of some kind. That went a bit wrong one day when she was crunching a piece of coal, I tried to take it off her and realised that I had no treat to hand, so eventually put my finger into her open jaw (I knew her well by this time) to try to push the coal out. She felt my finger tickling the roof of her mouth and immediately opened her mouth!
However it did mean that when we got 2 Rott pups from their breeder we made sure that they understood that we could take anything we wanted, including food, from them. That is why we never played tug with them, it would have given mixed messages.
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I don’t think playing tug is giving mixed messages. I didn’t used to play tug as I was worried about the dog gripping game not because I thought it would lead to resource guarding.
I do play tug with the pup. Sometimes she wins, sometimes I do. When I win I just say ‘thats enough, dead’ and she lets go. Probably as much as i have stopped playing as what i say.
I’ve thankfully never had a dog get aggressive over belongings, but it does sound like this is a downward spiral.
 
Yup, very high value treat needed or very good ‘recall’. I wouldn’t have the space under the stairs available to him, ruddy dodgy trying to crawl in to retrieve had it been a dangerous/poisonous item.

It’s something we’ve always made a big fuss over, being able to handle paws, look in ears, put hands in mouth (some will disagree with that, but they were attempting to eat acorns this week, wtf is that about, do they smell of squirrels?!) so I think it’s important.
 
maybe move his bed somewhere else. He needs his own quiet space but maybe not where someone has to crawl in to. Not that someone should really be crawling in to his bed to take something off him! Thats a bite waiting to happen.
Keep stuff he shouldnt have out of his way. Make sure he has enough of his own toys and chews etc. If he gets something he shouldnt have do not make a big song and dance about it. Swap it for something else high value to him. Its got to be something good so he will give up the contraband.
 
IME when you have a resource guarder, you need to remove the dog from the prize by calling them away, using whatever is their version of doggy crack but just as importantly, your energy should be very low. ' oh right, you got that, well done. Have you seen what's over here?' If they're stashing stuff in their bed, they usually leave it there and you can retrieve it once the dog has been removed from line of sight. I usually replace the prize with another more acceptable prize to avoid the frantic hunt once they go back to their bed but it has to be said, my resource guarder is very, very special!

In all honesty, like pretty much everything in life, preventing the behaviour is much easier than managing it. Getting the training to leave/drop/swop in place before you have an issue is brilliant but sometimes (often in my case!) we get it wrong/don't spot the training gaps/ take on a dog with those issues and you need to have strategies in place. Easiest and most effective - as said by others above - is not to leave anything that you wouldn't want them to have in reach or alternatively accept that you will pay the stupidity tax of losing it when you do. Worse thing you can do is start huffing and puffing, shouting or chasing ...it either becomes a game or you're just risking a confrontation so calm everything down and negotiate.

I have one dog that I could confidently stick my hand down his throat if I had too but will also always give if you insist. Most people have nice amiable dogs like that so when they come across a RG who will fight back, they are so shocked , they completely over react and worsen the problem. My other dog (is a div) resource guards and it is and I believe always will be a potential issue both by virtue of breed type and his early experiences. It's taken over 5 years now but the behavior is managed fairly well with a combination of not giving him the opportunities/ ignoring him/ distraction when we are out.
 
Clodagh said:
I don’t think playing tug is giving mixed messages. I didn’t used to play tug as I was worried about the dog gripping game not because I thought it would lead to resource guarding.
I do play tug with the pup. Sometimes she wins, sometimes I do. When I win I just say ‘thats enough, dead’ and she lets go. Probably as much as i have stopped playing as what i say.
I’ve thankfully never had a dog get aggressive over belongings, but it does sound like this is a downward spiral.
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Maybe it’s one that depends on the dog. If you have one whose personality could be a big t possessive perhaps best not.
Cecil loves a really noisy growl game tug but if I say enough he stops instantly. We had one years ago that wouldn’t stop. So I didn’t play it with him because I was the one letting go all the time and he got the prize which worried me- he was a wonderful little dog but I had a child and didn’t want issues.
Weirdly he’d always give toys back to my daughter!
 
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