The Brooke animal hospital causes suffering to animals
- Thread starter stormalong
- Start date
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Naturally the op said the dog had been taken to the brooke the day before and it was sent home. Ace PTS the following day.
ChesnutsRoasting
Well-Known Member
despite common belief, the camera is very good at lying.
rhino
Well-Known Member
Why is it a pity? Have I ever said I believe the Brooke verbatim?
The OP is not a regular poster, in 4 years they have made very few posts, with at least two advising potential Brooke supporters about the 'other' charity.
The purpose of the OP seems to be more about the apparent 'wealth' of the Brooke, as compared to the other charity, and less about the welfare. The offices, the posters, the adverts were all discussed before any mention of the animals. Why the balance sheet or the patrons is relevant I simply don't understand. Neglect and abuse are neglect or abuse, does it really matter if the accused neglecters or abusers have a newer car than another charity?
She's done a very good job of making an awful lot of noise on a busy public forum. Someone with an obvious link to another charity acting in direct competition for funding.
You said you were a cynical person, and so am I. Cynicicm works both ways though.
Holly Hocks
Well-Known Member
I have just read back to the OP's original post. Having read it again it does feel to me that she has an agenda. She has described the charity as "corrupt" - that's quite a serious allegation. Why feel the need to post about The charity's finances? If I were concerned about the neglect of an animal, I wouldn't be quoting figures.
Also having read her previous posts - some from 2008, there is quite a lot of mention of ACE, and in fact on one thread about donating to The Brooke, she brings ACE up again. Sorry, but I continue to remain unconvinced by her apparent concern for the horse.
Also having read her previous posts - some from 2008, there is quite a lot of mention of ACE, and in fact on one thread about donating to The Brooke, she brings ACE up again. Sorry, but I continue to remain unconvinced by her apparent concern for the horse.
ChesnutsRoasting
Well-Known Member
I too, remain concerned. As you point out, the OP has made serious allegations against the Brooke. The Brooke, as a well known and successful charity needs to defend itself with appropriate evidence. A few emails back and forth to the vet in charge doesn't cut it. Cause of death would.
touchstone
Well-Known Member
This is what I was trying to get to the bottom of before as to whether the vet needed the owners permission re pts.
Following the Brookes version it all sounds quite plausible, providing the horse received analgesia and so was not in pain, there may not have been much more they could do under the circumstances
mulledwhine
Well-Known Member
I always thought Brooke was too good to be true!!! Not saying they do not help, but this has confirmed everything I thought 
ChesnutsRoasting
Well-Known Member
The OPs motive could well be suspect but equally, the reply from The Brooke doesn't satisfy me either.
rhino
Well-Known Member
I always thought Brooke was too good to be true!!! Not saying they do not help, but this has confirmed everything I thought
It hasn't confirmed anything though, it is one persons word alone, a person who didn't even bother to contact the charity itself for 12 days and then only when prompted to on here.
rhino
Well-Known Member
Have you received the email from them which contains further information?
mle22
Well-Known Member
All I know is that I will be continuing my standing order to the Brooke.
silu
Well-Known Member
I was in Luxor last year and what I witnessed re the carriage/Caleche horses is perhaps beyond what most horse lovers who contribute to these forums could imagine.Prior to my visit I had been well warned about the plight of the majority of the horses, despite the warning, I was totally shocked at their condition and how they were handled. How any tourist took pleasure from a carriage ride being pulled by a near death horse was beyond my belief.
Upon my return to the UK, through Tripadvisor I found out about ACE which is a favoured tourist attraction in Luxor...very little mention of The Brooke!
I contacted ACE and they agreed with me that at a major tourist site outside Luxor the horses were in such a state that the best solution would be to put ALL of them to sleep. I am no tree hugger type yet was reduced to tears at these horses plight and refused to ride in a carriage up to a temple and boycotted the site. I had a VERY miserable day and will NEVER forget what I witnessed. ACE also advised me that many of the Caleche owners keep these horses in a near death state on purpose to tug on the heart strings of tourists...horses being used as "professional beggars". What the OP wrote unfortunately has a ring of truth to me having been out in Egypt recently.
I sent a donation to ACE post my return from Egypt. It is run by mainly British people I think (not sure of my facts). All I do know is that our delightful Egyptian tour guide was AMAZED at our reaction to the plight of the horses and it took many hours of talking to him to get him to begin to understand how we feel animals should be treated in comparison to the majority of Egyptians. That said there is real poverty in Egypt and to a small extent the situation could be excused, however there isn't a lack of water around!...yes even the basics of survival are not regularly given to the majority of Caleche horses.
With a great deal of effort I obtained The Egyptian head of tourism's email address and contacted him with regard to what a wonderful country Egypt is, however the only terrible downside to my holiday was the state of the Caleche horses which surely must negatively impact on other tourists, not just me?....I am waiting for a reply. As mentioned by a previous poster Spana does wonderful work with working equines abroad and I believe won a prestigious award in America recently but perhaps isn't as well known as it should be!
I truly hope there is a thorough investigation into The Brooke in Luxor and any improvements made swiftly should they be necessary. Unfortunately it isn't always the well known/heralded charities which actually make big differences.
Upon my return to the UK, through Tripadvisor I found out about ACE which is a favoured tourist attraction in Luxor...very little mention of The Brooke!
I contacted ACE and they agreed with me that at a major tourist site outside Luxor the horses were in such a state that the best solution would be to put ALL of them to sleep. I am no tree hugger type yet was reduced to tears at these horses plight and refused to ride in a carriage up to a temple and boycotted the site. I had a VERY miserable day and will NEVER forget what I witnessed. ACE also advised me that many of the Caleche owners keep these horses in a near death state on purpose to tug on the heart strings of tourists...horses being used as "professional beggars". What the OP wrote unfortunately has a ring of truth to me having been out in Egypt recently.
I sent a donation to ACE post my return from Egypt. It is run by mainly British people I think (not sure of my facts). All I do know is that our delightful Egyptian tour guide was AMAZED at our reaction to the plight of the horses and it took many hours of talking to him to get him to begin to understand how we feel animals should be treated in comparison to the majority of Egyptians. That said there is real poverty in Egypt and to a small extent the situation could be excused, however there isn't a lack of water around!...yes even the basics of survival are not regularly given to the majority of Caleche horses.
With a great deal of effort I obtained The Egyptian head of tourism's email address and contacted him with regard to what a wonderful country Egypt is, however the only terrible downside to my holiday was the state of the Caleche horses which surely must negatively impact on other tourists, not just me?....I am waiting for a reply. As mentioned by a previous poster Spana does wonderful work with working equines abroad and I believe won a prestigious award in America recently but perhaps isn't as well known as it should be!
I truly hope there is a thorough investigation into The Brooke in Luxor and any improvements made swiftly should they be necessary. Unfortunately it isn't always the well known/heralded charities which actually make big differences.
MileAMinute
Well-Known Member
And this is why this whole thread smacks of suspicion...!
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Just remember the alternative is dieing in the street .
The rules are just so different I saw a lamintic die I assume eventully of blood poisoning it took days it was awful but they don't PTS its another world.
( be clear I am not saying that what happened in this case) the horse may well have died of an internal injury causing bleeding and before anyone says they should have remember Ryan's Son died in his stable following a fall at hickstead and they will have had great equine vets there.
Dont know about this particular case, but must admit that despite always wanting to go to Egypt because of the history there, I will not go because I know that I would not be able to cope with the state of the horses there. Because of the recent troubles there and lack of tourists etc. I have read that many horses are being left to starve. People in other countries use their animals as we would use cars, they have to work no matter what their condition. They dont seem to grasp that if they kept the animals in good condition they would be able to work longer. Although we have our own cruelty problems in this country animals by and large are much better off than many other countries.
Dolcé
Well-Known Member
I'm afraid that the reply from the Brooke didn't convince me. FWIW I recently cancelled my subscription to an equine charity and will never donate again to one. Recent events have pretty much convinced me that they are all as bad as each other and I will in future spend the money on my own horses.
ILuvCowparsely
Well-Known Member
They might do some good but I dont support them personally I only support World Horse Welfare and SPANA
Honey08
Waffled a lot!
Egypt is a pretty shocking country when it comes to animal welfare. Perhaps one of the worst I have been to, even before the troubles. Next time I get a Egypt trip rostered I am going to go out and visit Brooke and form my own opinion. I already have a slight sway to my opinion..
I don't think its that strange that the OP didn't do anything for 12 days - hello - its called a holiday, and she said she was a technaphobe, so probably doesn't have a laptop. I wouldn't use a public computer for anything in Egypt...
Some people on here are determined to be suspicious!
There is absolutely no chance of any investigation into the cause of death. Its a pauper's horse in a skint country that died two weeks ago - it will be long gone... Photos and emails are the only way of solving this really..
I feel sad that lots of people are about to cancel their donations. They are far from perfect, but do a lot of good work. Even if this scenario is true (not judgeing either way), they tried (a bit) and the alternative was the horse dying in the street without any attempt of help at all...
I don't think its that strange that the OP didn't do anything for 12 days - hello - its called a holiday, and she said she was a technaphobe, so probably doesn't have a laptop. I wouldn't use a public computer for anything in Egypt...
Some people on here are determined to be suspicious!
There is absolutely no chance of any investigation into the cause of death. Its a pauper's horse in a skint country that died two weeks ago - it will be long gone... Photos and emails are the only way of solving this really..
I feel sad that lots of people are about to cancel their donations. They are far from perfect, but do a lot of good work. Even if this scenario is true (not judgeing either way), they tried (a bit) and the alternative was the horse dying in the street without any attempt of help at all...
rhino
Well-Known Member
Yet she managed to contact all the papers...
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
You just can't comprehend the poverty until you have seen it.
rockysmum
Well-Known Member
I think its really sad that people are threatening to cancel donations. The loosers will be the poor animals in countries like this.
If it turns out that this clinic is not doing a good job, then it need putting right, new management and better monitoring from the charity.
Nothing is perfect and I'm sure this is not unusual for charities. Perhaps they picked the wrong employees.
I personally will judge the charity on how they put this right and not beat them up about how it happened.
If it turns out that this clinic is not doing a good job, then it need putting right, new management and better monitoring from the charity.
Nothing is perfect and I'm sure this is not unusual for charities. Perhaps they picked the wrong employees.
I personally will judge the charity on how they put this right and not beat them up about how it happened.
stormalong
Active Member
Thank you for all your replies. Yes I feel very deflated at the ones that don't believe what I witnessed that day. Maybe in retrospect I should not have mentioned the other charity I visited that day. However, I just tell it how it is. I was on my way to the other charity, I did witness a dog brought in with 2 broken legs, that had previously been taken to The Brooke.
I have not asked for people to change where they donate, it is up to them to chose.
I love horses, I have three of my own, and recently I had to have one of them put to sleep and it broke my heart. However I realise I did not let her suffer, and difficult as it is to make that decision, at least I know she did not suffer.
I was on holiday, I did not want my heart broken that day, and to see a horse in such distress. All I want for this, is better care at The Brooke, I feel the vet was negligent, and I don't want this to continue.
The Brooke have replied to me, very much the same as the reply posted on the forum. They add a few additional items. Namely that the second time I visited the horse, it was on straw, with mats surrounding it. There was no straw in the stable, and the mats had been moved.
They state the horse was not losing large amounts of blood. It was. They say it died of suspected internal organ damage. So this is speculation also. They do state they do not have expensive equipment like x-ray machines.
However, my main aim of this posting is that I believe the horse should not have been left to suffer. Good nursing does not cost alot. The vet should have been monitoring its vital signs every 15 minutes. Checking its heart rate to monitor pain, also its respiration would have given an indication that his horse was dying. After all it died 15 minutes after I left.
It breathing was very laboured - a horse's respiration should be in the region of 10-20 breaths a minute. My husband describes its breathing like a hot dog - it was panting.
Their reply to me regarding the dog, was that it was not a working animal!
To those of you asking me to post the photographs I have sent to The Brooke. I spoke to my daughter last night, in fact she helped me send the photographs to them. I told her about calls to post them online. Her feelings were much like mine. The photgraph of the horse is not good viewing. It is sad that you will only believe me if you can view a picture of a horse hit by a bus. You hear of people taking photographs of serious road traffic accidents and then posting them online. There are some people who want to view such things, its not something I want to encourage.
To those of you who doubt me, at least you sleep at night. For me I have the knowledge of what I saw, and from the look of the reply sent to me by The Brooke, nothing out there is going to change. Vets also have to have compassion - that man did not show any. He stitched up its wounds, and left it in the stable. When I saw it the second time I knew it was going to die, no horse could survive the amount of blood it was losing.
I just feel the amount of donations they receive, they should be giving better care to the animals out in Luxor.
I have not asked for people to change where they donate, it is up to them to chose.
I love horses, I have three of my own, and recently I had to have one of them put to sleep and it broke my heart. However I realise I did not let her suffer, and difficult as it is to make that decision, at least I know she did not suffer.
I was on holiday, I did not want my heart broken that day, and to see a horse in such distress. All I want for this, is better care at The Brooke, I feel the vet was negligent, and I don't want this to continue.
The Brooke have replied to me, very much the same as the reply posted on the forum. They add a few additional items. Namely that the second time I visited the horse, it was on straw, with mats surrounding it. There was no straw in the stable, and the mats had been moved.
They state the horse was not losing large amounts of blood. It was. They say it died of suspected internal organ damage. So this is speculation also. They do state they do not have expensive equipment like x-ray machines.
However, my main aim of this posting is that I believe the horse should not have been left to suffer. Good nursing does not cost alot. The vet should have been monitoring its vital signs every 15 minutes. Checking its heart rate to monitor pain, also its respiration would have given an indication that his horse was dying. After all it died 15 minutes after I left.
It breathing was very laboured - a horse's respiration should be in the region of 10-20 breaths a minute. My husband describes its breathing like a hot dog - it was panting.
Their reply to me regarding the dog, was that it was not a working animal!
To those of you asking me to post the photographs I have sent to The Brooke. I spoke to my daughter last night, in fact she helped me send the photographs to them. I told her about calls to post them online. Her feelings were much like mine. The photgraph of the horse is not good viewing. It is sad that you will only believe me if you can view a picture of a horse hit by a bus. You hear of people taking photographs of serious road traffic accidents and then posting them online. There are some people who want to view such things, its not something I want to encourage.
To those of you who doubt me, at least you sleep at night. For me I have the knowledge of what I saw, and from the look of the reply sent to me by The Brooke, nothing out there is going to change. Vets also have to have compassion - that man did not show any. He stitched up its wounds, and left it in the stable. When I saw it the second time I knew it was going to die, no horse could survive the amount of blood it was losing.
I just feel the amount of donations they receive, they should be giving better care to the animals out in Luxor.
Ladydragon
Well-Known Member
Given the time delay, I would imagine that would be too late to have undertaken any autopsy once the OP alerted the head office... Being blunt, in the heat, a body needs to be dealt with very quickly...
I'm not saying photos have no validity... But a vet is unlikely to be able to look at a photograph and give a diagnosis, prognosis or evaluation of care with any accuracy... A picture of a prone animal could be recently dead, dying or having a nap...
Their post didn't bowl me over I must admit - pretty quick for a full investigation and it just seemed (to me) to be a bit of a stock reply... Having said that, I don't see any obvious way to prove or disprove an allegation of substandard (within that environment not compared to what we would expect at our own equine hospitals) care...
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
If you don't feel comfortable posting the photo on the thread, you are more than welcome to post the pics to me - I deal with suffering animals daily. It will not in any way offend me and I can deal with such sights!
I can then vouch on this thread that what I have seen correlates with your OP.
FWIW, I wouldn't feel uncomfortable posting distressing photos on here if it was to help animal welfare in the long term, and I have plenty of distressing pics to hand!
stormalong
Active Member
I have sent the photographs to The Brooke as they requested. If you want to view them, contact them.
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
Sadly, they will not disclose them, as it is now an internal investigation.
It was just a suggestion - although I imagine there's nothing conclusive evidentially in your pics because a horse merely laying down with burst stitches doesn't mean an awful lot in a picture.
stormalong
Active Member
Can't sleep!
The Brooke in their reply to me state they do not have an x-ray machine, and I know the only diagnostics they have in Luxor is the vet.
It seems such a shame that the other charity, just 3 minutes by car down the road has x-ray, ultrasound and endoscope facilities. The Brooke have 3 large 4x4 open backed transit vehicles, why do they not refer animals to the other place? At the end of the day our first and foremost concern is for the welfare of animals. In Egypt they don't use horse trailers, its quite bazaar, they stand the animals up in the back of a transit, or transport it on the back of a cart pulled by a donkey. I know politics take place between charities, but surely some arrangement could be agreed upon.
Re previous questions on post mortems on the horse. I did go to The Brooke, the day after the horse died. It was no longer there. I believe when a horse dies over there they are transported out to the desert.
The Brooke in their reply to me state they do not have an x-ray machine, and I know the only diagnostics they have in Luxor is the vet.
It seems such a shame that the other charity, just 3 minutes by car down the road has x-ray, ultrasound and endoscope facilities. The Brooke have 3 large 4x4 open backed transit vehicles, why do they not refer animals to the other place? At the end of the day our first and foremost concern is for the welfare of animals. In Egypt they don't use horse trailers, its quite bazaar, they stand the animals up in the back of a transit, or transport it on the back of a cart pulled by a donkey. I know politics take place between charities, but surely some arrangement could be agreed upon.
Re previous questions on post mortems on the horse. I did go to The Brooke, the day after the horse died. It was no longer there. I believe when a horse dies over there they are transported out to the desert.
Ladydragon
Well-Known Member
It's late, I'm tired...and confused...
If the other charity are lucky enough to have the equipment, have they offered the use of it to The Brook? Or are you suggesting that The Brook should refer their clinical cases into the care of the better equipped charity? Or 'buy in' use of the other charity's equipment?
hairycob
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormalong
It seems such a shame that the other charity, just 3 minutes by car down the road has x-ray, ultrasound and endoscope facilities. The Brooke have 3 large 4x4 open backed transit vehicles, why do they not refer animals to the other place?
It's all still a bit "he said, she said" to be able to know what actually happened with trhis horse, but the description of the facilities available at ACE does seem a bit "hmm" to me. I just feel that they may be there more to attract western donations than because they are of any real use.
I know these are facilities that in the UK we would expect any equine practice to have, but in this context they actually feel like expensive luxuries. Huge advances in equine welfare can be be made by improving education in things like tack, farriery & basic management and also by providing shaded rest & watering areas for the caleche horses. If a working animal in Egypt is in need of advanced diagnostics it's highly unlikely that the owner will have the resources to rest/rehab the animal & the chances are it will either die or be put back to work whatever. For goodness sake - these are people who are likely to have to choose, at least at quiet times, between feeding their kids or their horse. It may be that The Brooke are making a hard, but perfectly sensible decision, that these are not sensible things to spende money on. I've been to Luxor, I haven't been to any equine charities. I have seen the shaded rest & watering areas they provide & it's easy to see, on a day when the temp is well over 100c what a difference they make every day to the lives of these horses.
If you've ever been to Egypt - and Luxor is actually one of the better areas for horse welfare - you will have seen enough horrifying sights to last you a lifetime by the end of your first day. I actually hung out of a minibus window yelling at some tourists about to get into a caleche pulled by a skeletal chestnut mare, covered in sores, eyes so dull it made me want to cry (& hell, I'm no softy). The tour guide suggested that, being Italian, they probably wouldn't get my Black Beauty reference of "Remember poor Ginger, she is just like her the day she died". Poor thing was far from being the only one we saw like that.
Originally Posted by stormalong
It seems such a shame that the other charity, just 3 minutes by car down the road has x-ray, ultrasound and endoscope facilities. The Brooke have 3 large 4x4 open backed transit vehicles, why do they not refer animals to the other place?
It's all still a bit "he said, she said" to be able to know what actually happened with trhis horse, but the description of the facilities available at ACE does seem a bit "hmm" to me. I just feel that they may be there more to attract western donations than because they are of any real use.
I know these are facilities that in the UK we would expect any equine practice to have, but in this context they actually feel like expensive luxuries. Huge advances in equine welfare can be be made by improving education in things like tack, farriery & basic management and also by providing shaded rest & watering areas for the caleche horses. If a working animal in Egypt is in need of advanced diagnostics it's highly unlikely that the owner will have the resources to rest/rehab the animal & the chances are it will either die or be put back to work whatever. For goodness sake - these are people who are likely to have to choose, at least at quiet times, between feeding their kids or their horse. It may be that The Brooke are making a hard, but perfectly sensible decision, that these are not sensible things to spende money on. I've been to Luxor, I haven't been to any equine charities. I have seen the shaded rest & watering areas they provide & it's easy to see, on a day when the temp is well over 100c what a difference they make every day to the lives of these horses.
If you've ever been to Egypt - and Luxor is actually one of the better areas for horse welfare - you will have seen enough horrifying sights to last you a lifetime by the end of your first day. I actually hung out of a minibus window yelling at some tourists about to get into a caleche pulled by a skeletal chestnut mare, covered in sores, eyes so dull it made me want to cry (& hell, I'm no softy). The tour guide suggested that, being Italian, they probably wouldn't get my Black Beauty reference of "Remember poor Ginger, she is just like her the day she died". Poor thing was far from being the only one we saw like that.