The classical seat and position

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Horsekaren

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It seems myself and my new saddle are not going to get on until i learn to ride in a classical position. At the moment i believe i ride with my reins too short, arms strait, shoulders hunched, stirrups to short, i lean forward and i sit on my fanny!

I am reading up and trying to get it in my head. Has anyone got tips that help you remember where to be when on board.

I have just read in one of my books that we should be as close as possible to the position we would be in on the ground, this made me laugh because if i was standing in my riding position on the ground i can only assume on lookers would think i was broken, or a possible Zombie with severe back issues :D

is it best to just lengthen stirrups and get on it with it even if my hips hurt for a while. any tips for sitting on my but would also be appreciated.
 
Tip I picked up to get you sat in the right position was to put your legs in front of the saddle and put yourself in an armchair type position. Then bring your legs back onto the saddle.

As for getting a classical seat, do stirrup-less work in walk. Focus on keeping your toes pointed forward, either by thinking of turning your heel out (this will also encourage your heels to stay down), or bring your toes in towards the horse. You want to feel a stretch all the way down your inside leg.

What area of the country are you in? Would be worth getting a classical dressage instructor. I have one, but based in Devon. Though he does travel, just not sure how far.
 
Second the above, I usually try and stretch out my hip flexors before getting on and once I am on. Pilates also helps a treat as engaging your core will straighten your back and bring your bum underneath you.
 
Cloball said:
Second the above, I usually try and stretch out my hip flexors before getting on and once I am on. Pilates also helps a treat as engaging your core will straighten your back and bring your bum underneath you.
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So with my bum not being underneath me is that due to a lack of core?

Devon is a bit far from me 400 miles or so :D but i will look for ones locally. i have a fab instructor but the classical position isn't what we are working on at the moment.

I would love a lunge lesson but i don't know if i trust my horse to put up with me with no stirrups or reins, think he might see the funny side of making me slip off the side :P
 
Horsekaren said:
So with my bum not being underneath me is that due to a lack of core?

Devon is a bit far from me 400 miles or so :D but i will look for ones locally. i have a fab instructor but the classical position isn't what we are working on at the moment.

I would love a lunge lesson but i don't know if i trust my horse to put up with me with no stirrups or reins, think he might see the funny side of making me slip off the side :P
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Yes I really notice the difference when my core strength drops for any reason
 
It really depends a bit. It may well be that your saddle is not helping. Sometimes, the saddle will put you in an awkward position, making it a constant fight to try and maintain a good posture. Feedback from an instructor would probably be helpful on that score.

Otherwise, there are some stretching exercises that can help with tight hips. I recently went to an equipilates course, and some of the exercises we got were aimed at stretching the hip flexors, the piriformis muscle (google for those), and this stretch where you put your heel on the opposite knee, and try to let you knee drop down (no idea what that's called).

I also have a tendency for straight arms and round shoulders (legs are fine). What helped me find a better position were a few different tips:
When sitting in the saddle, try to breathe into your belly and into your back equally. Obviously, you can't really put air in your back, but if you think of breathing down into your belly (not chest) and also "inflate" the lower back/sides, it helps to find the right balance between perched and tucked hips. You can't breathe into a hollow back, or into a collapsed belly.
Another picture that helped me is to remember that your shoulder blades aren't actually connected to your back (only to your collarbones). They basically glide over your back, so if they have a tendency to slip forward/round, it's because your rib cage is tipped forward. Try to think of getting your rib cage vertical (think of stretching your collarbones apart to bring your chest up, without overextending your back), and the shoulder blades will naturally slide further back. Practice lifting your arms without moving the shoulders - they can move independently.
Ride with your reins holding them as though you were lunging (rein running from bottom to top through your hands, coming out between thumb and forefinger). Straight arms usually go with rotated hands (back of hand pointing up) and elbows pointing out. Holding the reins upside down gets you more into an arm position as though you were carrying a tray, with bent elbows closer to the body.

Hope those are helpful!
 
thanks, that's all really helpful. i guess the position cant be achieved with stirrups too short as my leg will keep going back (saddle has stirrup bars set back) and i will keep tilting forward?
People make riding look so easy!
 
Seat wise, try to distribute your weight between your two bum bones and your front bone, like you are on a tripod. This should help you with your leg position aswell as you will find your leg wants to hang down naturally.
 
You need to spend time on the lunge, regularly, with a good instructor.
As in this should be the focus until you have re-educated your body.
It’s hard work and it’s expensive learning to ride, then when you think you have made it you find a whole other level.

If you don’t think your horse is suitable for this then invest in sessions at a RS. Contessa might be worth a call
 
I second lessons on the lunge and Pilates. Too many people ride with hollow backs - duck bum, an old instructor of mine used to call it. Don't stick your derriere out, tuck it under.
"100 ways to improve your riding" is a good book to read up on the theory, but you really need an instructor when you're actually in the saddle.
God damn it this is making me miss riding!
Also another one of my instructors said - "full beam, not dipped headlights!" re: boobs. No need to stick your chest out excessively, just make sure they're pointing, ahem, full beam!
There is so much to remember all at once, so I'd deffo get an instructor involved. You need the nagging - you need to be able to hear their voice nagging you in your head when you're practising in between lessons! It can get very expensive - but I'd say with a good instructor once per month, with exercises to work on in between, and maybe getting friends to video you riding so you can pick up your own faults, you should still be able to make progress.
Good luck and enjoy :)

Having said that - your horse is a pretty chunky cob. On horses his shape it can be harder to achieve the classical position, as your legs are spread (can't think of any other way to word it sorry haha) more than they would be on a finer horse.
 
When you say that you and your instructor aren't working on a 'classical' seat at the moment.... What are you working on? It might be a bit difficult going between what your instructor is asking of you and the direction you're trying to take your riding in.

You could get some lunge lessons and see how you feel about it, and whether it would be worth investing in more of that kind of tuition and less of your regular style for a bit. But other than that you just have to become very aware of the way you tend to hold yourself when riding and how to correct it, and then the muscles themselves will develop to support that. Pilates, yoga and swimming are all good ways to develop general core muscle tone, but you need to develop the technique to go with it.

As an aside - from what I remember of your previous videos, you don't have your reins too long to me, in fact I had the impression that you had them too short to compensate for not being able to keep your arms soft and following at the moment
 
There's not much point trying to school your horse if you're not sitting in the right position, everything will be harder, you won't find any consistancy and you have any chance of the horse going correctly. Get that right first with a decent instructor and then you can school the horse
 
I like alois podhajsky as an author on classical equitation. Worth reading one of his books, they are still relevant now.
However you do also need a good teacher, I too would recommend some lunge lessons as your riding improves your horse will too. Also some lessons on a horse going correctly forward into a accepting contact so you know what you are aiming for.
 
ihatework said:
You need to spend time on the lunge, regularly, with a good instructor.
As in this should be the focus until you have re-educated your body.
It’s hard work and it’s expensive learning to ride, then when you think you have made it you find a whole other level.

If you don’t think your horse is suitable for this then invest in sessions at a RS. Contessa might be worth a call
Click to expand...

oh boy do i know its expensive! i thought i would save money on riding school lessons, ive had more lessons the last year than i ever imagined, i was on 2 - 3 a week at one point.... trial and error finding the right one. My instructor told me a couple of lessons ago i have moved onto the next stage :D obviously i thought wehey olympics here we come, then a saddle change and pooof 10 steps back. its good though, as i'm realizing i don't just want to ride ( i did that for years) i want to ride properly!

I'll have a look at Contessa and see if i can find anyone to come out and put me in the correct position then i can try to continue that with my current instructor
 
DabDab said:
When you say that you and your instructor aren't working on a 'classical' seat at the moment.... What are you working on? It might be a bit difficult going between what your instructor is asking of you and the direction you're trying to take your riding in.

You could get some lunge lessons and see how you feel about it, and whether it would be worth investing in more of that kind of tuition and less of your regular style for a bit. But other than that you just have to become very aware of the way you tend to hold yourself when riding and how to correct it, and then the muscles themselves will develop to support that. Pilates, yoga and swimming are all good ways to develop general core muscle tone, but you need to develop the technique to go with it.

As an aside - from what I remember of your previous videos, you don't have your reins too long to me, in fact I had the impression that you had them too short to compensate for not being able to keep your arms soft and following at the moment
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My instructor is fab, honestly a real find! and she does have her hands full with me... and quiet shocked to see what i can do compared to a year a go. We work on bending, impulsion, suppleness, yeilding ect. I understand why we do what we do as once we have worked on all of this and got him going he is a lot more willing to work with me, ie he will give me the contact (at stages) so i can feel, then it all comes together but whilst im learning the feel i cant just pop up into a nice trot in an outline whislt im trying to grasp it.

Yes my reins are too short, ooops if i said too long. I struggle to let the reins longer as i feel like i have less control but in reality i have less doing what im doing. I'm not so bad in walk and canter but trot its a bad habbit of mine. Since the saddle change if i lean or have my reins to short my legs now shoot backwards so i cant get away with it any more.

i suppose treed saddles help me to fake it as my legs don't go back but this one i have no where to hide.

I rode my friends horse a few weeks ago, i only have ever tried this horse once before, over a year ago and he was the one that made me realize i couldn't ride at all, i was on for less than a minute, had to put him into a corner and get off. Because i know this horse is strong i was so focused on staying alive that i actually looked pretty good??? .
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then back on my horse legs back, arms strait...

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I agree, i need that technique and position, if i can get my position correct then i can continue and hopefully progress


I will look up classical instructors, i believe the closest EE instructor is in Surrey. I dont want a new instructor i just want someone to just focus on my position then i can take that to my normal lessons and carry onwards
 
I have a rubbish position so can't help with that. But - did you get the saddle fitted by a saddler? Some saddles can put you out of position and make it harder for you!

The saddle my boy came with was a bit small for us, but not too bad a fit and my position wasn't too bad. I had a saddler out and he fitted another saddle to my boy, I trusted him but it turned out this saddle wasn't all that good a fit and it also put me in a really bad position. It tipped me forward constantly so I was constantly pushing my feet into the wrong place which made my lower leg really unstable, I thought I was getting worse but it was actually the saddle. Got my new saddle and instantly felt more secure when I tried it out. I'm still working on my position and having stable lower legs but this new saddle actually puts me in the right place, whereas the other one I was constantly trying to 'right' myself.
 
Sorry, no, I've written short where I meant long in one of those, so have ended up with a garbled sentence - apologies :p

No, I had the impression from a previous video that you had your reins too long, to avoid catching him in the mouth when your hands move with your body (rather than being able to stay independent and still) - so you are using slack in the reins to allow for difference between his movement and yours, rather than using the flexion in your elbows and wrists
 
The feathered horse, your stirrups are too short for that saddle, your knee has nowhere to go with your stirrups that short. Your knee isn't in a bad place at all but then because of that your lower leg has nowhere to go except too far back. Drop your stirrups down a few holes and if you find them too long work without stirrups to lengthen your legs, when you take your stirrups back after 10 min or so they'll feel the right length. You'll have to repeat this (maybe several times per ride) every time your legs "shrink" until your leg position has permanently lengthened.

On the clipped cob you look stiff in your lower back making you hollow, and tight through the back of your thigh and calf muscle, your heels should be a little lower, but you're getting away with it and maintaining balance because the saddle is helping you out there. Your riding isn't awful but it could be better.

You basically need to be a lot more flexible than you currently are, to ride well. Discovering Dressage by Laura Fry and Enlightened Equitation by Heather Moffat are both good books for explaining in detail where you should put your body and what you should do with it all. Once you know what it is you're supposed to be doing get into the habit of checking, and if necessary adjusting, your position before asking the horse for any new movement. eg circle at E and just before you get to the straight line check yourself before starting the straight line, check yourself before the corner, check yourself before making a transition at C etc. The horse can't move as easily under you if your balance or position is off or you're tight somewhere.

Are you generally hanging on by your reins? Gripping with your legs? Asking because you said about not doing lunge lessons on your horse and I can't really see why. Whilst working on your legs/body you can hold the pommel of the saddle which will help to anchor you, you shouldn't slip off as you fear you will. If holding the pommel isn't enough to keep you in the saddle without stirrups at walk and short periods of steady trot, I'm wondering how you manage to stay on board the rest of the time.
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
The feathered horse, your stirrups are too short for that saddle, your knee has nowhere to go with your stirrups that short. Your knee isn't in a bad place at all but then because of that your lower leg has nowhere to go except too far back. Drop your stirrups down a few holes and if you find them too long work without stirrups to lengthen your legs, when you take your stirrups back after 10 min or so they'll feel the right length. You'll have to repeat this (maybe several times per ride) every time your legs "shrink" until your leg position has permanently lengthened.

On the clipped cob you look stiff in your lower back making you hollow, and tight through the back of your thigh and calf muscle, your heels should be a little lower, but you're getting away with it and maintaining balance because the saddle is helping you out there. Your riding isn't awful but it could be better.

You basically need to be a lot more flexible than you currently are, to ride well. Discovering Dressage by Laura Fry and Enlightened Equitation by Heather Moffat are both good books for explaining in detail where you should put your body and what you should do with it all. Once you know what it is you're supposed to be doing get into the habit of checking, and if necessary adjusting, your position before asking the horse for any new movement. eg circle at E and just before you get to the straight line check yourself before starting the straight line, check yourself before the corner, check yourself before making a transition at C etc. The horse can't move as easily under you if your balance or position is off or you're tight somewhere.

Are you generally hanging on by your reins? Gripping with your legs? Asking because you said about not doing lunge lessons on your horse and I can't really see why. Whilst working on your legs/body you can hold the pommel of the saddle which will help to anchor you, you shouldn't slip off as you fear you will. If holding the pommel isn't enough to keep you in the saddle without stirrups at walk and short periods of steady trot, I'm wondering how you manage to stay on board the rest of the time.
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This is soooo helpful! thank you!
I think i'm going to get on and walk without my stirrups before i put my feet in them next, see if i can stretch those legs.
I am currently reading Enlightened Equitation and finding it very informative :)
Would my stirrups being to short encourage me to rise with my feet?

I dont hang with my reins, probably the opposite, i am always told i have light hands but i dont have that softness in my wrist, i just give and take constantly. I think i grip with my calves in canter but that needs a lot of work. As for the not being overly keen to be lunged on my horse its because he is mine, and giving control away makes me nervous in case he wants to have a cheeky buck ect. If i can hold on to something to start then that's fine, i visioned no stirrups, arms out ect and im sure on a circle i would slip.... but i guess that exactly why i need to do it so i learn not to slip!
 
I did some lunge lessons when I started back riding a few years ago. I found them fantastic. I did them in a riding school on one of their horses. I really recommend both lunge lessons and pilates. The pilates has made me stronger and I sit straighter. It's also made me more aware of what my body is doing.
 
Lots of lunge lessons. Start every ridden session with no stirrups, and repeat half way through - even just in walk.

But don't go so mad for achieving a "correct" position that you become completely ineffective - treat it as a work in progress. Trying to maintain a specific position, no matter how correct it might be, is hard mentally and physically. Aim to work towards it rather than just being bent into position and hoping to stick to it- if you do that you'll stop riding effectively.
 
Absolutely agree with Sugar-and-spice, particularly about Heather Moffett's book. Heather also does short courses in Devon where you learn on her simulator horse to get in the correct position, it is very useful as you can concentrate on yourself and not have to worry what a horse is doing. Some of the transformations of riders, and people new to riding are
amazing.

You know that Andrew Nicholson said that everyone should do 15 minutes without stirrups every time they ride?
 
A horrible exercise my instructor used to crack out for straight arms was to put a schooling whip in the crook of both arms and behind your back, really feels strange at first but it great for training you to feel what is right, as unless you have arena mirrors you cannot see your own position and must go on feel. I used to tend towards the “duck bum” position until a lightbulb moment riding an extremely sensitive cob who jogged constantly unless held with your seat bones- as soon as I shifted out of position off we went again with no chance of slowing until I was correctly on my seatbones again. And echo no stirrups sorry!
 
you look pretty fixed on your friend's cob, you look more relaxed on yours but I want to drop your stirrups several holes and pick your hands up and bend your elbows (it took me a fair while to get this and it gives you a totally different contact, think Charlotte DJ ;) )

I also get the feeling (especially as you mention your feet when rising) that you need to open and relax your hip, in turn this will let your leg hang more naturally.
 
I would expect any RI to be encouraging a rider of your standard, as shown in your photos/videos, to ride a classical position. Lunge lessons will help, on your own or another horse and you might find it helpful to read Mary Wanless' 'Ride with Your Mind'. Very often good teaching is about using the right imagery to help your pupil understand what you mean.
 
ester said:
you look pretty fixed on your friend's cob, you look more relaxed on yours but I want to drop your stirrups several holes and pick your hands up and bend your elbows (it took me a fair while to get this and it gives you a totally different contact, think Charlotte DJ ;) )

I also get the feeling (especially as you mention your feet when rising) that you need to open and relax your hip, in turn this will let your leg hang more naturally.
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Whilst I am no expert, lifting your hands & bending your elbows will give that flexibility.
Sitting on your bum bones & allowing your hips to open will stop your leg tensing & gripping (I am also concentrating on this).

Try this. In halt, with someone holding your pony, take your legs completely off the saddle. You will find yourself sitting on your ass. Bring your legs back in. Do the same in walk. Lightbulb.
 
I've got into the bad habit of looking down at the horse. If there's a chance you're doing this, and you feel you have to have a peep every now and then, try looking with your eyes rather than moving your head.

My pilates instructor helped me square my shoulders and lengthen my neck which has brought me into better alignment. I'm more symmetrical. He's also a physio which helps.
 
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