RunToEarth
Well-Known Member
wow, ignorance really is bliss. I didn't know we were here for you to (literally) walk all over, at least people with your view are in the minority.
The dangers of walkers and dogs
- Thread starter RunToEarth
- Start date
wow, ignorance really is bliss. I didn't know we were here for you to (literally) walk all over, at least people with your view are in the minority.
ClobellsandBaubles
Well-Known Member
There are lots of signs where I used to live particularly the national trust land and around lambing season. When I was doing duke of ed we came across several fields one with a beware bull sign and one with a yellow triangle and a snorting bull pic in the middle. On helped as we were able to detour and take care the other not so much as we crossed the gate in the opposite direction and only noticed when we were leaving 
The only time I have had a problem crossing a cow field was when I entered a field that we crossed regularly out hacking a a couple had their labs loose and they were chasing the herd of cows, the couple didn't seem at all bothered by this and we ended up having to jump a small brook at which point the cows stopped. I have been much more cautious ever since! A friend of mine got ganged up on by a field of sheep too :S
I think a nice sign just stating what is in the field would help as quite often fields are large and weirdly shaped so you can' always see whats in them. I mean not all horses appreciate cows/ alpacas etc. and my mum for one will turn tail as soon as she sees a cow/horse so it makes for an interesting walk
A bit of warning would save the anxiety attacks
The only time I have had a problem crossing a cow field was when I entered a field that we crossed regularly out hacking a a couple had their labs loose and they were chasing the herd of cows, the couple didn't seem at all bothered by this and we ended up having to jump a small brook at which point the cows stopped. I have been much more cautious ever since! A friend of mine got ganged up on by a field of sheep too :S
I think a nice sign just stating what is in the field would help as quite often fields are large and weirdly shaped so you can' always see whats in them. I mean not all horses appreciate cows/ alpacas etc. and my mum for one will turn tail as soon as she sees a cow/horse so it makes for an interesting walk
A bit of warning would save the anxiety attacks lachlanandmarcus
Well-Known Member
So what would would you propose in Scotland then, those who would force fencing off? There are not set footpath routes there? Should farmers not be able to use any of any of their fields? Should they also fence off all rabbit holes. Getting up early to check for any new ones?
I also dont think those suggesting it appreciate just how much land would be lost in this way, it is amazing when you look at a block of land on a farm how big an area is taken up by tracks etc, it is acres and acres.
Finally, be careful what you wish for. Once fenced off, there will be no easy way for the route to be eaten down and kept readily navigable. The farmers mowers will be far too wide to mow them and you've stopped the natural alternative doing it. So now there is the cost of fencing and the cost of specialist machinery to mow them, assuming they can reach all parts of the routes.
No thanks.
I also dont think those suggesting it appreciate just how much land would be lost in this way, it is amazing when you look at a block of land on a farm how big an area is taken up by tracks etc, it is acres and acres.
Finally, be careful what you wish for. Once fenced off, there will be no easy way for the route to be eaten down and kept readily navigable. The farmers mowers will be far too wide to mow them and you've stopped the natural alternative doing it. So now there is the cost of fencing and the cost of specialist machinery to mow them, assuming they can reach all parts of the routes.
No thanks.
lachlanandmarcus
Well-Known Member
It is safely navigable, unless you take a dog in there. You can still walk it and the risk of doing so without a dog is extremely low. Add the dog and the risk rises.
I suggest you give up driving, until you find a way to ban those unreasonable other drivers who use the road, since they present a statistically much higher risk than the cows. No? Ok maybe it's just cos you think your rights trump the farmers, when in fact both have rights and have to exercise common sense, them not to put their maddest cows in PROW fields and yours not to insist on taking a dog through when there are cattle out. And it would help if farmers were able to sign fields without risking liabilitty just by trying to help.
RunToEarth
Well-Known Member
Well when farmers can't put any stock in their fields for fear of being prosecuted, and they sell to Barratt homes for development, you will have nowhere to walk, will you?
Clodagh
Playing chess with pigeons
I was thinking the other day, reading about how people are worried that with the easing of planning restrictions farmers may build on their land. TBH if this forum is representative of how people think about farmers they will be delighted. Lots of houses, no cows and no PROW, except for nice safe little concrete alleys between gardens.
hayley.t
Well-Known Member
Agree with you both. There is another post on here moaning about farmers getting subsidies so can't win really, there will be a lot of jobless farmers if they can't have subsidies but can't stock the land either.
lachlanandmarcus
Well-Known Member
This is already happening in many areas, fed up with strident litter dropping gate leaving open walkers and their out of control dogs chasing stock or ******** in the crops: and fly tipping land trashing temporary inhabitants who leave the land contaminated and rubbish strewn but who they are unable to keep out despite using large rock, tree trunks etc, they end up thinking 'why bother when people only care about how cheap they can buy imported crap food' - and sell up to the developers.
a lot of times they don't initially jump at it, they want to carry on farming but it gets to the point it's just too hard to farm it any more. Even crop farms get vehicles driving all over the crops either for 'fun' to cos they are out hare coursing or poaching, armed and not to be approached.
MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
I think you should read this and find out what your responsibilities are; http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&lr=lang_en|lang_de
Then maybe reflect on this recent death.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...seriously-injured-herd-cows-walking-dogs.html Note the same herd has seriously attacked 4 times in 5 years, including times when no dogs or calves were present. The farmer's insurance company has and is currently finding paying the number compensation claims very expensive.
The police and HSE are investigating this farmer.
If this herd were dogs, they'd be shot. Incidentally, Defra's and NFU advice is that dangerous cattle should be culled.
Spook
Well-Known Member
Just as well you live in England then!!!!!! Here in Scotland we have "The Right to Roam".. responsibly though....... walking, riding, cycling, wild camping and to access water with canoes etc...... "RESPONSIBLY ANYWHERE!" not just on tracks etc.
Do not all land owners/managers carry a public liability insurance??
Flame, you are being daft thinking that land managers/owners should not be able to manage their land as they think fit and responsible. It sounds as if you would access land irresponsibly and take silly risks.....and you might be considered a NIMBY here.
Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander
Flame_
Well-Known Member
Can't quote as I'm on phone now... In Scotland you have the obvious option to walk through the empty field next to the field full of cows, so any sane person would go for that, here in England we have to stick to roads and designated ROW. So by doing that one is being irresponsible? How do you work that one out?
Roasted Chestnuts
Well-Known Member
Honestly Im over this completely. Those who are more up for their rights you honestly need to take a good hard look at what you eat. How much of it comes from these animals you are saying shouldnt be grazing in fields naturally incase you want to walk across the land.
I think you need to think about that and many of you maybe need to volunteer on a farm and have an average week in the ploughing/harvesting/lambing/calving seasons and see the 20hr days some of these farmers pull to put the food on your plate and the milk in your cuppa.
Some people are just selfish bleeding @r$e$.
I think you need to think about that and many of you maybe need to volunteer on a farm and have an average week in the ploughing/harvesting/lambing/calving seasons and see the 20hr days some of these farmers pull to put the food on your plate and the milk in your cuppa.
Some people are just selfish bleeding @r$e$.
Alec Swan
...
All cattle have the potential to be dangerous. Dangerous cattle today, will be peaceful and amenable animals tomorrow. Would you have all cattle, contained within buildings?
No farmer, in their right mind's would turn out dairy breed bulls, PROW or not. Beef bulls are generally only interested in their herd responsibilities, but again, no one would turn out the bulls on a public thoroughfare.
One point, or more a question perhaps, why is it horserider, that you seem to be devoid of any experience, preferring to rely upon your abilities to research conditions which were promulgated, long before the HSE were involved, and by those who farm livestock?
Alec.
Last edited:
MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
What is so sad about some attitudes on this thread is that you seem to have forgotten what life was like before the Kinder Scout protest trespass 80 years ago.
Thanks to the courage of those people, the countryside which previously,had been kept for the upper classes, was opened up to the working class.
For those of you who aren't familiar with our heritage, here's the recent report to commemorate the anniversary.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17796665
Thanks to the courage of those people, the countryside which previously,had been kept for the upper classes, was opened up to the working class.
For those of you who aren't familiar with our heritage, here's the recent report to commemorate the anniversary.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17796665
MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
I'd be concerned about a farmer who couldn't tell the temperament of his livestock. My grandfather probably knew his cattle and horses better than he knew his wife.
I'm sure you are aware without me stating the obvious, that any animal has the potential in certain circumstances to be aggressive. However, the farmer is expected to know this. The law does not expect the public to have the same level of knowledge.
I have already posted about experiences of mine on this thread, refer back if you're interested. I use links usually because such rubbish is often spouted on here as fact, when its just misinformation.
Anyway, another incident I personally encountered whilst out riding. The bridlepath ran through the centre of a field. It was full of cows and a dairy bull, busy with his ladies.
The farmer was by the gate, so I asked if it was ok to go through. Yes, came the reply, he's a good lad.
He was. Even though some of the cows followed me and my mare, the bull stayed put. This was a local farmer who knew his stock and kept them well.
Dizzydancer
Well-Known Member
Here i am again with another question-aimed at the farmers among you!
If i walked through field a which is empty, get to field b spot cows in far corner, but have dog with me. Walk away from field b and subsequently off the PRow to field c which has a gap in hedge and free of animals, i cross this field and return to field d animal free and back onto PROW.
Would this be acceptable for majority of farmers? I understand you will always get the odd one who is not happy.
If i walked through field a which is empty, get to field b spot cows in far corner, but have dog with me. Walk away from field b and subsequently off the PRow to field c which has a gap in hedge and free of animals, i cross this field and return to field d animal free and back onto PROW.
Would this be acceptable for majority of farmers? I understand you will always get the odd one who is not happy.
Spook
Well-Known Member
horserider you are so very wrong in this respect..... most ROWs are/were the way to work for the working classes....... it's the middle classes who lost their way!!!!!!
MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
Ah yes, that's true. However, the working classes were only allowed to use routes that would enable them to reach their place of work for their betters benefit.
Funny old world where ramblers/horseriders are accused of bringing farming to its knees by walking on ROWs, while the hunts are somehow devoid of upsetting livestock and studs.
Orangehorse
Well-Known Member
OK, I am a farmer, we have beef cattle, I had a horse that was terrfied of cattle (one reason why I sold her), and now horse that will put his ears back and drive cattle away, and I am a dog walker!
A dog is regarded as a "normal accompanient" from the CC's point of view, but it doesn't have a Right to be on a footpath as such. I am afraid that I really do not have any answers to the "dangers of cattle."
I am not too keen on entering a field with cattle on my horse if they are crowded round the gate, ditto with the dog, as they tend to run over to see what it is - note, I do not call it "charging" as lots of people do. I know how intimidating it is, and how people can be frightened. The cattle are being curious, but with no malicious intent. If you run away, they will follow you, to see where you are going. The way I deal with a group of cattle running towards me is to put my arms up and shout "shoo" and this, to date, has always worked. Sometimes cattle do panic, and in that mood there is nothing to be done except to leave them alone and let them settle down. If they are in a panic then they can jump hedges, and just crash about - like a bolting horse really. (The bull that was loose was probably really frightened and wanted to get back to its herd as quickly as possible).
With the horse that was nervous of cattle, I tried to avoid close confrontation, if I was by myself I used to go a long way round them, or if with another horse, hide behind them. My current horse is OK, but if a herd galloped towards him he might well decide to buck and join in. Again, luckily it hasn't happened (yet).
There are reasons why there are more cow/calf/dog incidents. There are a lot more suckler herds now, whereas in the past most calves came from the dairy herd and the young calves saw a lot more of humans as they were taken away from the cow to be reared. Some calves will now be born in the field and hardly see humans close to which makes them naturally more skittish, even when they fully grown and breeding, or fattening in turn. We buy weaned store cattle whose only experience of humans is to be put into a cattle crush and be wormed and have injections - no wonder that they are a bit nervous. It is true that the larger, continental breeds tend to have a more flighty temperament, although farmers realise this and attention is paid to breeding for a quiet temperament - after all, it is the farmers who have to handle them for TB testing, worming, feeding, etc. Large cattle play-fight amongst themselves and they sometimes don't like being bossed around by humans, which is what we find when we are TB testing, we have to be aware of those that are likely to be more troublesome.
Cattle tend to settle down as the summer progresses. So now all the cattle have only recently been turned out, they are feeling the spring grass and seeing humans walking in fields can frighten them, or make them curious. Any newly calved cow is going to be very protective of their calf. As they get used to the sight of walkers and are used to being turned out they become quieter.
A dog is regarded as a "normal accompanient" from the CC's point of view, but it doesn't have a Right to be on a footpath as such. I am afraid that I really do not have any answers to the "dangers of cattle."
I am not too keen on entering a field with cattle on my horse if they are crowded round the gate, ditto with the dog, as they tend to run over to see what it is - note, I do not call it "charging" as lots of people do. I know how intimidating it is, and how people can be frightened. The cattle are being curious, but with no malicious intent. If you run away, they will follow you, to see where you are going. The way I deal with a group of cattle running towards me is to put my arms up and shout "shoo" and this, to date, has always worked. Sometimes cattle do panic, and in that mood there is nothing to be done except to leave them alone and let them settle down. If they are in a panic then they can jump hedges, and just crash about - like a bolting horse really. (The bull that was loose was probably really frightened and wanted to get back to its herd as quickly as possible).
With the horse that was nervous of cattle, I tried to avoid close confrontation, if I was by myself I used to go a long way round them, or if with another horse, hide behind them. My current horse is OK, but if a herd galloped towards him he might well decide to buck and join in. Again, luckily it hasn't happened (yet).
There are reasons why there are more cow/calf/dog incidents. There are a lot more suckler herds now, whereas in the past most calves came from the dairy herd and the young calves saw a lot more of humans as they were taken away from the cow to be reared. Some calves will now be born in the field and hardly see humans close to which makes them naturally more skittish, even when they fully grown and breeding, or fattening in turn. We buy weaned store cattle whose only experience of humans is to be put into a cattle crush and be wormed and have injections - no wonder that they are a bit nervous. It is true that the larger, continental breeds tend to have a more flighty temperament, although farmers realise this and attention is paid to breeding for a quiet temperament - after all, it is the farmers who have to handle them for TB testing, worming, feeding, etc. Large cattle play-fight amongst themselves and they sometimes don't like being bossed around by humans, which is what we find when we are TB testing, we have to be aware of those that are likely to be more troublesome.
Cattle tend to settle down as the summer progresses. So now all the cattle have only recently been turned out, they are feeling the spring grass and seeing humans walking in fields can frighten them, or make them curious. Any newly calved cow is going to be very protective of their calf. As they get used to the sight of walkers and are used to being turned out they become quieter.
mon
Well-Known Member
Cattle sometimes can be unpredictable in temperaments just like human beings can be, more people will be harmed by humans than farm stock I bet.
lachlanandmarcus
Well-Known Member
They would probably be more happy if allowing it didnt then result in a legal claim to an additional new PROW on the new route as well as the old one.....if they don't challenge it, that's what happens.
A lot of farmers would dearly like to divert footpaths eg through the middle of fields to safer routes. But they are pretty much always stopped from doing so.
Spook
Well-Known Member
Interestingly we have 3 "diverted" and fenced routes here to divert access users away from the farmyards (the original routes went right through the buildings), they are provided with good easy horse gates too. One of the lengths of ancient track does go throgh an un-fenced "Hill" field and we see no reason that we should have to fence it, and, yes we do run beef breeding cattle on it. This particular route is ancient, an old turn pike, preceeding the the main roads and the railway locally.
If you want to divert a route for either safety or privacy reasons contact your local "Access Officer" at your council offices..... they are more than happy to accommodate diversions where they make sense. I expect this will only apply in Scotland.
Access users should remember that they are using other peoples property and act accordingly! Respect signs with requests/instructions etc..... they are there for your, the farms stock and in some cases crop or wildlifes benefit and safety....
With rights comes responsibility.
lachlanandmarcus
Well-Known Member
Agree, much easier in Scotland in this respect, it was really England that the issues really arise in, there even when the diversion is more scenic, or avoids some risk factor its very very hard to get it changed (unless you are a big property developer in which case strangely it's fine!)
Jools2345
Well-Known Member
i dont think people are selfish and i dont think how many hrs farmers/farm workers put in has anything to do with where the cattle are or if i feel safe walking across a field.
livestock (including horses) that have access to PROW should be ones that have shown themselves to be steady and safe when people walk through with or without dogs.
i know of no farmers that HAVE to put cows with calves or bulls in fields with PROW, most are sensible and use alternative fields when cattle are thought to be more dangerous/spooky.
and if indeed they did, i think it reasonable to provide and alternative route or be polite when people seek an alternative route.
as for those saying an alternative route leaves them liable for accidents that happen when the route is used-so do the cattle when they have flattened someone the difference is YOU have to live with the death or serious injury on your conscience that happened just because you were making the point that the field is currently in your care and you can put what you want in it
Alec Swan
...
As a boy, I read somewhere that Public Footpaths were first granted their legal status, because they were the shortest route for a coffin to be carried, for burial. Presumably they were short-cuts across the land of others. All a bit odd, because the weight of a coffin, and a body would have needed horse drawn transport, I'd have thought.
Does anyone know how a "Public" right of way came about?
Alec.
Does anyone know how a "Public" right of way came about?
Alec.
Alec Swan
...
RunToEarth
Well-Known Member
most cattle in the news are not dangerous by definition, no more dangerous than any other cattle, they are simply acting as herd animals, protecting their young. If dog walkers cannot appriciate their behaviour IMO they shouldn't be walking through the middle of them. I am well aware of our responsibilities and I have always felt we have gone above and beyond our requirements for PROWs, we even have mounting blocks next to (new, user friendly) gates because some of the smaller users prefer to get off their ponies. Most farmers have looked after their PROWs well for generations, they are just ever fearful of the blame/claim generation.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
and precisely what test are you going to devise before horses and cattle pass their "human contact proficiency badge"??
Horses, many of which are handled daily from birth, can never be considered fully safe especially when spooked, cattle who have little handling even less so.
Many farmers have no choice but to use fields with ROWs, they often don't have sufficient alternative fields.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
As mentioned in one of the posts above, a lot of PROW go right past houses or into farmyards because they developed from the way that people used to walk to visit their neighbours. Then postmen used them too, again going from house to house or farm to farm.
We had a Right of way officer come to see us at our place because he was going round the whole area and he definitely mentioned 'old postal routes'.
